Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.

[takaaki]

I didn't say that they can't read. Perhaps they can translate from character-to-character but they do not have the full capability to interpret thought-to-thought. Anybody can translate the characters by looking up in a dictionary. The problem with their ability was to select the right meaning for the interpretation. However, sometimes the definitions in dictionary do not include the classic definitions. Thus they will mistranslate the classic with modern definitions.

 

Thought-to-thought would apply to western thinking which is the process of mentation at a very simplistic level as in me, you, here, there, eat, this, sit, there, chop, chop.

 

Classical Chinese thinking, which is metaphorical, is very complex in comparison and would need a concept-to-concept approach. (This is why Chinese scholars love the classics so much. It's like the enjoyment of fine cuisine by gourmands. Even Shakespeare, which is not much better than street entertainment, in my opinion, does not come close.)

 

So, when a translation is made, one would begin trying to match (classical Chinese) concept to (western) thought and ends up fitting (vernacular Chinese) thought to (western) thought.

Edited February 8, 2013 by takaaki

[dawei]

Thought-to-thought would apply to western thinking which is the process of mentation at a very simplistic level as in me, you, here, there, eat, this, sit, there, chop, chop.

 

Classical Chinese thinking, which is metaphorical, is very complex in comparison and would need a concept-to-concept approach.

 

I think this is partly true as the west tends to employ much more direct meaning and the east to employ vagueness (metaphorical). This leads the former to want to find that word or thought and the latter to fill in the blanks a little bit.

 

But I would not agree that both sides are incapable of employing the other. This might seem to imply nature cannot be changed by nurture, or it might imply that the hemispheres have a lock on what gets distributed to mankind.

[ChiDragon]

This is a good place to clear the air about the Chinese characters, thoughts and concepts.

In Chapter One, it has three main characters, 道, 無, and 有.
Let's just look at the characters first.
1. 道: Tao, it was not defined in Chapter One but only have a description of it.
2. 無: none, doesn't have it,
3. 有: have (implying something that exists)

Thoughts:
3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。

3. Invisible, it was named as the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible, it was named as the mother of all things.
Lines 3 and 4 are using the characters 無, and 有 as an introductory descriptive for the manifestation of Tao.
Tao is a potentiality(無) but formless before the creation of Heaven and Earth. Tao become an actuality(有) when all things were created.

In Chapter 40 substantiate the usage of 無, and 有 as a concept.
3. 天下萬物生於有，
4. 有生於無。

3. All things of the world came from Visible(有).
4. Visible came from Invisible(無).

The characters 無 and 有, in Chapter 40, are identical to the 無 and 有 in Chapter One. If we link the thoughts together we have the following interpretative concept.
Line 3, in Chapter 40, says:
3. 天下萬物生於有，
All things in the world came from the actuality of Tao(有),

Line 4, in Chapter 40, says:
4. 有生於無。
The actuality of Tao(有) came from the potentiality of Tao(無).

Edited February 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

This is a good place to clear the air about the Chinese characters, thoughts and concepts.

 

You are a very dedicated teacher, and I would like to offer my deepest respects and wishes for the Chinese New Year.

 

Can you clear the air for us with regard to the meaning of the Year of the Water Snake?

 

And also, advise us how to greet each other appropriately for the New Year.

 

What is the appropriate greeting in Chinese (accompanied by English translation) for our western Taoists (including Dawei) of the English version of the Tao Te Ching?

 

And what is the appropriate greeting in Chinese (accompanied by English translation) for fellow Chinese scholars of the Chinese version of the Tao Te Ching?

Edited February 9, 2013 by takaaki

[dawei]

You are a very dedicated teacher, and I would like to offer my deepest respects and wishes for the Chinese New Year.

 

Can you clear the air for us with regard to the meaning of the Year of the Water Snake?

 

And also, advise us how to greet each other appropriately for the New Year.

 

What is the appropriate greeting in Chinese (accompanied by English translation) for our western Taoists (including Dawei) of the English version of the Tao Te Ching?

 

And what is the appropriate greeting in Chinese (accompanied by English translation) for fellow Chinese scholars of the Chinese version of the Tao Te Ching?

 

I use 过年好. My wife is preparing many dishes for tomorrow but unfortunately I am on a business trip through the weekend... and she does a good job of making sure I am not a Taoist.

[ChiDragon]

takaaki.....
I wish you to have a happy new year too; and thank you for your deepest respect.

There are twelve calendar signs in the Chinese zodiac dedicated to twelve animals. The order goes like this: rat, ox, tiger, hare, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, cock, dog, and boar. The cycle repeats itself every twelve year. This coming new year is the year of the water snake. The reason it was called the 'water' snake has something to do with the five elements such as metal, wood, water, fire, and earth(soil). I need to find out how the water was related for the year of the snake(2013).

In regarding to how to greet each other appropriately for the New Year,
In the north part of China, people speaks mandarin, they will say:
过年好(have a good year throughout).

The Cantonese in the South will say:
恭喜發財(Kung Hay Fat Choy) hope you'll get rich
新年快樂(happy new year)
They are the same as the appropriate greeting to all.

@dawei...
"she does a good job of making sure I am not a Taoist."
Why was that...???

Edited February 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

@dawei...

"she does a good job of making sure I am not a Taoist."

Why was that...???

 

Good question. I would also like to know what dishes Dawei's wife will be preparing.

 

What about your wife? What dishes will she be preparing?

[ChiDragon]

Normally, we have the traditional dishes like Chicken, roast pork, fish(carp), dry oysters, and lettuce(used to wrap food in at the end of the meal). The chicken and roast pork are must and all the other dishes have the synonyms of the auspicious terms. Nowadays, we go to a restaurant to have all these wonderful dishes for the new years.

Edited February 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

Yes, the lettuce wrap is good. I like to put a piece of Chinese sausage (imported from Hong Kong) in the wrap to kick it up a notch. Wax duck and preserved meat (pork belly) are must haves, and a noodle dish for longetivity. Last but not least, a western touch: X.O. Hennessy Cognac for Yum Seng or Chines New Year can never be right! I would never tell the French that the Chinese can also produce as good brandy as the French. Why won't they accept that English can never capture the Chinese Tao Te Ching? Anyway, let's study.

 

I would like your review on Chapter 42 with regard to your interpretation of the following lines:

 

8. 唯孤、寡、不穀，

8. Are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain.
Only Loneliness, Celibacy, Unkind,

9. 而王公以為稱，
9. Yet kings and dukes take these as their names.
Are used by the kings and dukes to address themselves.

 

 

English words are very specific in their meanings. Thus, orphan is just that; and widow is widow and not spinster.

However, 孤 is not "orphan" although it is used for denoting orphan in vernacular usage. A closer meaning is "being alone".

The same applies to 寡 which is not widow. It is more like "removed from social rank" that she had before as a wife, a person with social significance in Chinese society. A king or emperor would have the pronoun of 寡人, a royal personage removed from the general populace and has no social rank because, in his case, he is above the common herd.

 

It is true that people hate to be left out (like orphans), without social status (like widows), and have no economic relevance in society. And yet, this is exactly the lot of the aristocrat - an exclusive life apart from the maddening crowd and spared the horror of having to work for a living.

 

What do you say?

Edited February 10, 2013 by takaaki

[Mark Saltveit]

I didn't say that [Westerm scholars] can't read [Classical Chinese]. Perhaps they can translate from character-to-character but they do not have the full capability to interpret thought-to-thought. Anybody can translate the characters by looking up in a dictionary. The problem with their ability was to select the right meaning for the interpretation. However, sometimes the definitions in dictionary do not include the classic definitions. Thus they will mistranslate the classic with modern definitions.

 

Any decent scholar of the Chinese classics reads Classical Chinese fluently. They are not looking up words in a dictionary. With all respect, I think that your argument here betrays a bit of cultural bias.

 

Your point about modern definitions is a very good one, but it is in fact the person who has grown up with modern Chinese who is more likely to do this. They have grown up knowing different meanings for many of the characters in Classical era books, and ingrained these meanings over decades of use. It is no simple matter for them to "forget" these meanings, which did not apply when these old books were written.

 

A Western (or Indian, or South Sea Islander or whatever) who learned Classical Chinese as their first dialect of Chinese language may well have an advantage over someone who grew up speaking modern Chinese, in their understanding of these classics for this reason. Maybe not, it all depends on the person. But it not an obvious advantage for the Chinese scholar, who must also study Classical Chinese diligently to understand it.

[ChiDragon]

A Western (or Indian, or South Sea Islander or whatever) who learned Classical Chinese as their first dialect of Chinese language may well have an advantage over someone who grew up speaking modern Chinese, in their understanding of these classics for this reason. Maybe not, it all depends on the person. But it not an obvious advantage for the Chinese scholar, who must also study Classical Chinese diligently to understand it.

 

Thank you for your interest in the matter. I understand your point of view. However, A Western (or Indian, or South Sea Islander or whatever) may not learn Classical Chinese as their first dialect of Chinese language without knowing the basic modern language. The prerequisite to learn classic is to learn the modern language to begin with.

 

Anyway, with all respect, I understand where you are coming from. Further discussion to repeat the same matter is no longer advantageous. Please pay close attention to the native talks like between takaaki and me because we have the common language background. You will see the way we communicate is much easier because we were brought up the same way almost.

 

We both are using English to exchange Chinese ideas. By using English alone without any Chinese knowledge is very difficult to communicate. I hope you can see and grok the difference in my response to takaaki in the next post.

Edited February 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I would like your review on Chapter 42 with regard to your interpretation of the following lines:

 

8. 唯孤、寡、不穀，

8. Are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain.

Only Loneliness, Celibacy, Unkind,

 

9. 而王公以為稱，

9. Yet kings and dukes take these as their names.

Are used by the kings and dukes to address themselves.

 

English words are very specific in their meanings. Thus, orphan is just that; and widow is widow and not spinster.

However, 孤 is not "orphan" although it is used for denoting orphan in vernacular usage. A closer meaning is "being alone".

The same applies to 寡 which is not widow. It is more like "removed from social rank" that she had before as a wife, a person with social significance in Chinese society. A king or emperor would have the pronoun of 寡人, a royal personage removed from the general populace and has no social rank because, in his case, he is above the common herd.

 

It is true that people hate to be left out (like orphans), without social status (like widows), and have no economic relevance in society. And yet, this is exactly the lot of the aristocrat - an exclusive life apart from the maddening crowd and spared the horror of having to work for a living.

 

What do you say?

 

It is nice to have you to come along here to discuss some linguistic issues. It is very difficult to discuss these three terms with someone without having the fundamental to understand their basic meanings.

 

8. 唯孤、寡、不穀，

These three terms 孤、寡、不穀 by themselves are adjectives describing loneliness. Like the expression "boy! it's lonely on top of the ladder". These terms were used by an ancient ruler to address himself as such revealing his superiority and loneliness. Everyone was afraid to talk to a ruler truthfully but only telling him the good words. In the sense, the ruler will not be approached with a true figure or friend which will make him the loneliest person in the world. Because of that, he will address himself as 孤、寡、and 不穀 as nouns.

 

As you said:

1. 寡人 is a "single person" implies none of a kind of person because of his position as a ruler above all.

2. 孤家 is the "lonely self" implies that he is all alone by himself has no friends to talk to.

3. 不穀 is a very classical term. It seems the meaning has been lost in history. Only native scholars have some knowledge of it.

 

The characters 人 and 家 are normally used to address oneself. However, only those people who speak the language are familiar with its usage in context. BTW This is one of those most difficult cases to translate into another language. As you said, English words are very specific in their meanings. However, Chinese and classics are not. The meaning of each character has to be grokked based in context or the usage in a phrase.

 

 

@Mark Saltveit...

Do you see how easy for me to communicate with someone who knew the language already....???

 

[takaaki]

It is nice to have you to come along here to discuss some linguistic issues. It is very difficult to discuss these three terms with someone without having the fundamental to understand their basic meanings.

 

Yes, very nice. I wish we have some fine 龍井茶 to add to our enjoyment of this lesson.

 

It is unfortunate that we cannot make ourselves understood to our western members who insist that Classical Chinese is not inaccessible to them. Dawei (is he Chinese?) is compounding the problem by his unsympathetic attitude towards our reasoning making us look like stodgy Kung Fu masters intent on keeping Chinese treasures within China. The biggest culprits are the Chinese intellectuals like John Wu, Gia Fu Feng, and Lin Yutang whose translations are ridiculous from my point of view. But they are luminaries with great stature in the west.

 

 

The characters 人 and 家 are normally used to address oneself. However, only those people who speak the language are familiar with its usage in context. BTW This is one of those most difficult cases to translate into another language. As you said, English words are very specific in their meanings. However, Chinese and classics are not. The meaning of each character has to be grokked based in context or the usage in a phrase.

 

I know, and I will leave you to get this across to our beloved Marblehead in your patient diplomatic way. The Chinese don't have sole possession of human wisdom. To assert this would be truly mad. Even bees have possession of the Tao wisdom, that we Chinese don't have, to live harmoniously together (in their hives) and cooperate effectively. And they don't need classical Chinese to access the Tao Te Ching!

 

I do not maintain that classical Chinese is the key to unlock secrets in the Tao Te Ching. Actually, its vault of wisdom is empty. What I have been saying is this: the key to unlock the secrets of classical Chinese is the Chinaman and no other.

[ChiDragon]

According to my recollection, I believe that Dawei had told us he is not Chinese but married to a Chinese woman from Taiwan.

Edited February 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

According to my recollection, I believe that Dawei had told us he is not Chinese but married to a Chinese woman from Taiwan.

 

Good lord! That was exactly what I thought Dawei could be: a westerner with a Chinese wife.

 

My English (which is flawed with wrong tenses) is better than his. So, English can't be his mother tongue. He must be European. I have to admit that he sure can give you a run for your money arguing about the ancient texts. His ability at doing that gave me the impression that he could be a Chinaman.

[三江源]

~This thread is being reported rather a lot, as one that is lacking civility and maturity and respect. If this situation doesnt improve then members involved will be subject to suspension without further notice. If by any chance you are unable to discern the lack of civility herein, please look more closely and take the opportunity for close reflection on your tone and content and attempt a wider vision of sensitivity.

 

Perhaps you were not aware that the way you are gossiping about/labelling dawei is very poor form/insensitive/ runs counter to the spirit of this forum ~

 

mod team

[ChiDragon]

I believe it was not too Taoist like on my part. That is why I classified myself as a Semi-Taoist. However, I will convert myself to a full Taoist from now on. BTW Since I have declared myself as a Taoist, then I will behave like one with great tolerance for anyone who has a tendency to have make offensive comments about me. I will consider those comments as unprovoked comments. I will remain Wu Wei about it and won't report any of them as insults to jeopardize the freedom of speech.

Edited February 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mark Saltveit]

I do not maintain that classical Chinese is the key to unlock secrets in the Tao Te Ching. Actually, its vault of wisdom is empty. What I have been saying is this: the key to unlock the secrets of classical Chinese is the Chinaman and no other.

 

Is this trolling, simple bigotry, highly spun irony, or all three? One thing it is not, is useful communication.

[ChiDragon]

I am not too please with his choice of words; perhaps, he just want to make his point across. It may have some merits to some but not others. It is only in the eyes of the beholder. Anyway, I would pay my attention to the thought rather than the words.

This is only my opinion. Hopefully, we do not throwing out any more opinions into this thread, continuously, beyond repair.

Edited February 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

~This thread is being reported rather a lot, as one that is lacking civility and maturity and respect. If this situation doesnt improve then members involved will be subject to suspension without further notice. If by any chance you are unable to discern the lack of civility herein, please look more closely and take the opportunity for close reflection on your tone and content and attempt a wider vision of sensitivity.

Perhaps you were not aware that the way you are gossiping about/labelling dawei is very poor form/insensitive/ runs counter to the spirit of this forum ~

mod team

Edited February 12, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

~This thread is being reported rather a lot, as one that is lacking civility and maturity and respect. If this situation doesnt improve then members involved will be subject to suspension without further notice. If by any chance you are unable to discern the lack of civility herein, please look more closely and take the opportunity for close reflection on your tone and content and attempt a wider vision of sensitivity.

 

Perhaps you were not aware that the way you are gossiping about/labelling dawei is very poor form/insensitive/ runs counter to the spirit of this forum ~

 

mod team

 

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to the culture of forum members here. I shall henceforth restrict my postings to the study of classical Chinese only.

 

Please convey my apologies to forum members who have reported to you that their feelings have been hurt by my lack of sensitivity.

[takaaki]

Is this trolling, simple bigotry, highly spun irony, or all three? One thing it is not, is useful communication.

 

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to your culture.

 

I regret hurting your feelings and apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

 

 

[Mark Saltveit]

Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to your culture.

I regret hurting your feelings and apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

 

You have not hurt my feelings or offended me in any way. I am just publicly discussing how to evaluate the intent and usefulness of your comments here. And by making my comments online (rather than just holding them in my head), I am inviting comment, reaction, and/or disagreement.

 

The culture that matters here is that of The Tao Bums' online community. It's not "mine;" I'm still trying to get a sense for it myself. But I like the idea of thinking of each online community as another nation or culture, that one must adapt to the same way as we would with a nation or culture we find through traveling or reading.

[Moderator team]

Please keep to the original topic. And please keep the discussions respectful even if there is disagreement. You can review the Forum ToS below in the quote box.

 

If you need further explanation you can see Sean's (site owner) thread titled Insult Policy Reminder

 

Posts with a threatening tone - whether explicit or implied - are against the ToS.

 

- S.B / Mod team

 

 

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[ChiDragon]

takaaki............

Come on back....!!! Please don't get discouraged. We have started a fruitful discussion here already....