Deci Belle's Original Nature

[deci belle]

Lineages have no say in the fact of reality. Your nature has no need of taoism. It already is of itself without existing.

 

Nature is NONE of these things you parade. No one is criticizing the fact of historical lineages. Why are you being its champion? There is no lineage without realization. Realized illuminates are the only ones comprising the lineages.

 

Is taoism not big on seeing your nature? Seeing your nature is the same as sudden enlightenment. Same as seeing essence; same as seeing your original face. Do you believe the classics were created by the unenlightened?

 

The world-honored classics exist by virtue of seeing your nature. Lineages exist by virtue of seeing your nature.

 

Our true nature is uncreated. You have not seen your nature. Being is a verb, but what is non-being? That is your nature.

 

What do you have invested in lineages of any sort and what is the point of equating the uncreated with the manifest when you yourself have no part in your unmanifest nature to make such assumptions?

 

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE TEACHINGS IS TO ARRIVE AT YOUR NATURE, THEREBY TO JOIN IN THE UNCREATE AS A PARTNER EXISTING FREE AND CLEAR OF THE CREATED. And who, taomeow, is this we you speak of? Your nature is not a person. Only those who have arrived at the basis have the power invested to apply potential to meet creative evolution.

 

You are confusing created nature and your real nature. You are also confusing tradition with your nature.

 

What does it matter that you chop wood and carry water? Nothing is gained by complete perfect enlightenment.

 

Lineages are ok, but they are attributable and depend on the real. The real is your enlightened nature.

 

Until you see your nature, the conceit of lineages is a convention; afterwards it is matter of fact.

 

At any rate, the illuminates of past, present, and future are one. There are no lineages in the Unborn.

 

Lineages are tumors of action, of which you need not trouble yourself defending.

 

 

And our lineages are not 'academic,' they are 'a candle lit from a candle.'

 

Our lineages? Again, until you yourself see your nature this thing of yours is a candle in the wind,

[deci belle]

The sequential transmission is in service of the tradition and therefore the lineage is transmitted, not knowledge, which is inherent.

 

The lineage in the USA is present and accounted for by my own transmission, then— BUT, Universal Goodness is not by a country, rather in the Way itself. Therefore, the sequence is still a convention, whereas realization is inconceivable.

 

I must say, Taomeow that you chose to respond to what I said so therefore it is you who want to talk about something to me that I am not talking about.

 

That is your error.

 

Furthermore, as one who is evidently afflicted with the sicknesses of attachment to teachers, teaching traditions, and personal interpretations of the functional reality constituting lineages, there is simply no merit in your taking up a righteous cause relative to your erroneous self-concept to defend this cucumber of yours against the natural iconoclasm of an illumined adept who actually knows the meaning of physical and spiritual sublimation entering the tao in reality.

 

All the processes of authentic tradition are a natural occurrence on the Way.

 

Therefore, all the natural processes of one's own being arriving at authentic realization is the basis of authentic teaching, and not the other way around.

 

The universal directive is to SEE ESSENCE ON YOUR OWN, THEN SEEK A TEACHER. There is nothing transfered from one to another. Without the basis of one's own realization THERE IS NO LINEAGE. The light is impersonal, beyond convention.

 

I myself have no lineage to speak of. As such, lineages mean nothing to me since I have seen my nature without a physical teacher. Even so, I studied for almost two decades in an ancient North American tradition and subsequently from the Southern and Northern Complete Reality Traditions. In the aftermath of sudden realization formally attributed to the science of taoist alchemy of immaterial vision of the heart of heaven and earth it was only by the power Chan that my meager potential was freed from the cave of the small vehicle.

 

One cannot identify personally with a lineage, only serve the selfless intent of the human body, which has no location.

 

 

[deci belle]

Please!! Do find yourself a list of lineages!! But you have your own nature, and no else one can find it for you.

 

But why, after all, would you want to have a list of lineages if taoism is not big on seeing your nature, hmmmm?

[deci belle]

Cool. move it. And you can move Taomeows drivel about the romance of what "we" taoists do too, because rote practice and cloistered tradition are not the criteria of spiritual lineage.

********

 

There are three things necessary to the life of any spiritual lineage:

 

The succession of enlightened leadership that successfully keeps the knowledge of the reality beyond words, action and doctrine alive: i.e. seeing your nature.

 

If either succession or enlightened experience or leadership that successfully keeps the knowledge alive is missing, there is no lineage to speak of.

 

It is not a matter of going to a school to pay tuition to be a taoist somewhere to learn a few tricks.

 

SEE ESSENCE ON YOUR OWN, THEN SEEK A TEACHER.

 

When you have seen your nature, you are automatically following in the steps of prior illuminates. I have seen this myself.

 

THIS IS THE UNSPOKEN LINEAGE WHICH IS FOUND WITHIN ONESELF.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Cassiel, perhaps?

[Apech]

Cool. move it. And you can move Taomeows drivel about the romance of what "we" taoists do too, because rote practice and cloistered tradition are not the criteria of spiritual lineage.

********

 

There are three things necessary to the life of any spiritual lineage:

 

The succession of enlightened leadership that successfully keeps the knowledge of the reality beyond words, action and doctrine alive: i.e. seeing your nature.

 

If either succession or enlightened experience or leadership that successfully keeps the knowledge alive is missing, there is no lineage to speak of.

 

It is not a matter of going to a school to pay tuition to be a taoist somewhere to learn a few tricks.

 

SEE ESSENCE ON YOUR OWN, THEN SEEK A TEACHER.

 

When you have seen your nature, you are automatically following in the steps of prior illuminates. I have seen this myself.

 

THIS IS THE UNSPOKEN LINEAGE WHICH IS FOUND WITHIN ONESELF.

 

Move what? Drivel? What drivel slightly confused here.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Apech

[joeblast]

I can see both sides of the coin. Like Max said, sometimes it takes a good teacher to show that you dont really need one. (In which case, you've been taught at any rate ) And sometimes one needs the extra guidance and even security blankets. We each walk our own paths, some choose to fold a knapsack and disappear into the brush, while some congregate and take the path explicitly well marked with folks that can read the markings.

 

imho...as long as one is walking and keeps walking a path, making progress, uncovering bits of the real...

[Jeff]

I can see both sides of the coin. Like Max said, sometimes it takes a good teacher to show that you dont really need one. (In which case, you've been taught at any rate ) And sometimes one needs the extra guidance and even security blankets. We each walk our own paths, some choose to fold a knapsack and disappear into the brush, while some congregate and take the path explicitly well marked with folks that can read the markings.

 

imho...as long as one is walking and keeps walking a path, making progress, uncovering bits of the real...

Everyone can use a little help from a friend every once and a while, no matter how far along the path one may be.

[joeblast]

that's why it is important to cultivate the wisdom aspects, etc - we dont want to be like a blind cat happening upon a dead rat, but a sighted cat that can hunt down a live one

[Jeff]

Or how about friends in really high places...

 

(Lankavatara Sutra)
"In the spirit of these vows the Bodhisattva gradually ascends the stages to the sixth. All earnest disciples, masters and Arhats have ascended thus far, but being enchanted by the bliss of the Samadhis and not being supported by the power of the Buddhas, they pass to their Nirvana.

 

The same fate would befall the Bodhisattvas except for their sustaining power of the Buddhas, by that they are enabled to refuse to enter Nirvana until all beings can enter Nirvana with them. The Tathagatas point out to them the virtues of Buddhahood which are beyond the conception of the intellectual-mind, and they encourage and strengthen the Bodhisattvas not to give in to the enchantment of the bliss of the Samadhis, but to press on to further advancement along the stages.

 

If the Bodhisattvas had entered Nirvana at this stage, and they would have done so without the sustaining power of the Buddhas, there would have been the cessation of all things and the family of the Tathagatas would have become extinct. "

 

Best wishes on your path.

[joeblast]

So the buddhas will be helping me regardless of my beliefs on the situation My beliefs do not alter reality

[Jeff]

So the buddhas will be helping me regardless of my beliefs on the situation My beliefs do not alter reality

 

When you are a Buddha (or very near), your thoughts alter reality. But the mind of Buddha, is pretty quiet.

[Apech]

Move what? Drivel? What drivel slightly confused here.

 

 

I posted a query earlier about this.

 

Can whoever moved these posts from a discussion that made sense into Articles please explain what's going on!!!!

 

We've had several discussions about lineages before and no problem ... so what gives?

[suninmyeyes]

...

Edited January 30, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[Birch]

I don't know what's going on but it feels like the point at which Taoists and Bhuddists diverge.

[Jeff]

I don't know what's going on but it feels like the point at which Taoists and Bhuddists diverge.

 

Probably not... I think both Taoists and Buddhists like to have friends in high places...

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[Apech]

I don't know what's going on but it feels like the point at which Taoists and Bhuddists diverge.

 

 

How do you mean?

[Birch]

 

How do you mean?

 

I've been heavily studying path 'literature' for want of a better word and I've gotten it into mind that the goal of enlightenment leads a person in a very distinctive direction. As far as I can tell (although not being enlightened myself, this is the view from here) full enlightenment leads to extinction of the whole person and their removal from existence. Buddhists and Taoists know this, but they diverge in their goals. A Bodhisattva makes a vow to return to lead others to extinction (er, I mean 'enlightenment') whereas a Taoist does not and then can decide to do any number of things, like the reversal of jing-qi-shen, in order to enjoy longer incarnation, better fortune, help people (why not?).

[Apech]

I've been heavily studying path 'literature' for want of a better word and I've gotten it into mind that the goal of enlightenment leads a person in a very distinctive direction. As far as I can tell (although not being enlightened myself, this is the view from here) full enlightenment leads to extinction of the whole person and their removal from existence. Buddhists and Taoists know this, but they diverge in their goals. A Bodhisattva makes a vow to return to lead others to extinction (er, I mean 'enlightenment') whereas a Taoist does not and then can decide to do any number of things, like the reversal of jing-qi-shen, in order to enjoy longer incarnation, better fortune, help people (why not?).

 

 

Hmmm I could start a whole nother debate on that one .... but anyway I will prob put my answer in my article on misconceptions about Buddhism.

 

Still want to know why this was moved from thread in general but I don't think I'm going to get an answer.

[Jeff]

I've been heavily studying path 'literature' for want of a better word and I've gotten it into mind that the goal of enlightenment leads a person in a very distinctive direction. As far as I can tell (although not being enlightened myself, this is the view from here) full enlightenment leads to extinction of the whole person and their removal from existence. Buddhists and Taoists know this, but they diverge in their goals. A Bodhisattva makes a vow to return to lead others to extinction (er, I mean 'enlightenment') whereas a Taoist does not and then can decide to do any number of things, like the reversal of jing-qi-shen, in order to enjoy longer incarnation, better fortune, help people (why not?).

 

Hi K,

 

I think you may somewhat misunderstand Buddhism (confusing it with Vedanta). Buddhism does not believe in "extinction", but instead the realization of "no-self" which is often confused. The "extinction" point is one of the big distinctions of Buddhism and a Buddha. The concept of "individuality" does not cease and the sutras are very specific about the risk of that happening.

 

Below from the Lankavatara Sutra...

 

 

“When it is said that all things are egoless, it means that all things are devoid of self-hood. Each thing may have its own individuality-the being of a horse is not of cow nature-it is such as it is of its own nature and is thus discriminated by the ignorant, but, nevertheless, its own nature is of the nature of a dream or vision. That is why the ignorant and the simpleminded, who are in the habit of discriminating appearances, fail to understand the significance of egolessness. It is not until discrimination is gotten rid of that the fact that all things are empty, un-born and without self-nature can be appreciated.”

[Birch]

Hi K,

 

I think you may somewhat misunderstand Buddhism (confusing it with Vedanta). Buddhism does not believe in "extinction", but instead the realization of "no-self" which is often confused. The "extinction" point is one of the big distinctions of Buddhism and a Buddha. The concept of "individuality" does not cease and the sutras are very specific about the risk of that happening.

 

Below from the Lankavatara Sutra...

 

 

Ok, no, I don't get it then if 'individuality' doesn't cease. And do you mean generic horse or cow or that cow over there? Cow

 

[Jeff]

Ok, no, I don't get it then if 'individuality' doesn't cease. And do you mean generic horse or cow or that cow over there? Cow

 

Buddhahood is described as a "deeper" realization. And part of the reason why Buddhist's describe their path as "better". In essence, one makes the vow and has the support of the Buddhas, so you don't find yourself "ceasing" at a "God" level. This higher "stage" is associated with the "rainbow body" concept.

 

Again from the Lankavatra Sutra...

 

"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation."

[Birch]

 

Hmmm I could start a whole nother debate on that one .... but anyway I will prob put my answer in my article on misconceptions about Buddhism.

 

Still want to know why this was moved from thread in general but I don't think I'm going to get an answer.

 

I will be very interested to read it Apech.

[JustARandomPanda]

This thread was split off from the Taoist Lineages thread in the Taoism forum. DB kept diverging the topic into discussions of seeing your "original nature". And while that is an interesting topic in it's own right that's not what my original question was about.

 

Also there started to be some rather heated exchanges and so to keep the peace I decided to split the topic so it could be more fully explored.

 

That's when I noticed DB had already created this thread in the articles section. So I merely merged those split posts to this thread.

[deci belle]

Deci belle kept discussing the nature of taoist lineage, what constitutes authentic lineage and the power of authentic teaching.

 

The mods can be so very self-serving when it comes to their own personal little concerns, hmmmm?

 

If the basis of authentic lineage was up to the like of self-serving unenlightened pedants …where would the living teaching reside?

 

It was a turf-war.

 

I fail to see the credibility of the moderators in this regard.