MCO, Sternum, Flexing the Rib-Cage, Pumping the Marrow

[Christoph]

 

swiss ball action

[Trunk]

Two tennisballs stuffed in a nylon and tied off act as a good back roller as well. (thx Sifu Fong/pdx)

Since Spectrum mentioned, I've tried the above, and - for me - it's a preferred version of the wooden back roller.

I love the results from the wooden back roller, but I don't like using it - it's kind of hard for this old body to roll on. So, I'm switching to two old tennis balls in a sock:

Old tennis balls have enough give, so it's not "yikes, ouch" all the way down, and the width is pretty much exactly the same as the back roller (and much cheaper!). From experimentation, I really consider some sort of back massage as a required companion if I'm going to be "bouncing the front" - it just really opens the channels to let any stress process around, which can sometimes otherwise get uncomfortably stuck.

[soaring crane]

Ok, I tried it. The bouncing and the gym ball exercises. The chest bouncing was really uncomfortable. I did a lot of improvising and tried different sized balls at a physio therapy place and just couldn't find anything that felt remotely "good" or beneficial (for me). I think I have a blockage about this for some reason. I could sense that I was holding back and just couldn't get comfortable with it.

 

The best thing in this respect was a "hedgehog ball", a spiny rubber ball, not a hard spiky massage ball but an inflatable, well, hedgehog. It was flat on the bottom and it really did feel ok for a massage along the front side, but I can get a lot more Qi flowing with slapping.

 

With the gym ball, lol, the first one I used was a large, overinflated one and I bounced off and landed on my elbow on the suprisingly hard floor. Ouch. Now my elbow is swollen and I hope I didn't crack the bone. But I kept at it with other balls and found "my" ball - maybe 18" and not too firmly inflated. It had kind of a "tacky" texture. I tried doing it like the Juijitsu guy in the youtube video and while I was nowhere near his level, it was still a great exercise. I had to take off my shirt and the skin work was pretty intense and invigorating. I was tingling afterwards and just felt refreshed and strong. THAT is something I'm going to be looking into more and I'm very thankful for this thread

[Trunk]

Ok, I tried it. The bouncing and the gym ball exercises. The chest bouncing was really uncomfortable. I did a lot of improvising and tried different sized balls at a physio therapy place and just couldn't find anything that felt remotely "good" or beneficial (for me).

It's been about a month since my first post on this thread, and I've been experimenting. My current thinking is that "bouncing the front" is somewhat advanced, a little crude, and can bring up too much tension if you don't have a number of other things in place. (Such as a good back massage device, and a more moderate over-all experience with rolling around on the balls.) Still, "bouncing the front" (imo) is a good method, just I wouldn't present it as a "first single thing on its own" next time.

 

But I kept at it with other balls and found "my" ball - maybe 18" and not too firmly inflated. It had kind of a "tacky" texture. I tried doing it like the Juijitsu guy in the youtube video and while I was nowhere near his level, it was still a great exercise. I had to take off my shirt and the skin work was pretty intense and invigorating. I was tingling afterwards and just felt refreshed and strong.

Way to go! (And, sorry to hear about your elbow, hope it heals up well.) Variety is good, with the balls, and there's lots of room to play (and

is a great starter!). The smaller balls give a deeper massage, the bigger ones better for rolling around, and the swiss ball for more structured exercises - they're all good.

 

 

Some years ago, on the HT board, someone (who was that guy?.. I've forgotten) described how iron shirt packing flooded the tissues with blood, and was so crucial for jing gong. I argued that the packing techniques were dangerous for people with stagnation, cause the packing tended to force tension deeper into the channels & tissues. (For people with open channels & tissues, like him, it worked great.) It's my current experience that playing with, rolling around on, these pliable balls relatively safely and very effectively (both much more so than IS packing) accomplishes that goal of IS packing: massages the tissues and organs, circulates blood, opens the channels. This is so important as a complement for any of the aroused practices, because the main danger of saving aroused jing is that it tends to cause heat and stagnation everywhere, which must be processed and resolved, or you're f###ed.

 

-- later edit --

I mean, think about it: I can put my whole body-weight (minus feet, & maybe hands, for stability) on one of these balls, and roll all over my torso as much as I want, any time I want. That's a pretty strong massage (and a work-out to boot). I can't afford the time & $ to get a massage that often, and it is so healthy!

[soaring crane]

Thanks for another great post, Trunk. What you write makes a lot of sense.

 

I was back at it today, I have a key to the physio place, and it was super. I only did rolling stuff, just let go and roll whichever part of my body wants to contact the ball (it works until I come to a wall and have to change direction intentionally, or crash into the wall). I'm sure it doesn't look very aesthetic but it feels fantastic.

 

In my last post I wrote, about the chest bouncing, "I think I have a blockage about this for some reason". I had originally expanded on that thought a bit more and then deleted it. What I had written was that the exercise was going into an emotional body that didn't want to be messed with, yet. I most definitely do appreciate the potential of the exercise, though, and am going to work up to it.

Edited February 25, 2007 by soaring crane

[Spectrum]

This is so important as a complement for any of the aroused practices, because the main danger of saving aroused jing is that it tends to cause heat and stagnation everywhere, which must be processed and resolved, or you're f###ed.

 

 

Interesting wording here in relationship to the cultivation of jing chi and shen. Expound further on your practices if you want.

Edited February 25, 2007 by Spectrum

[lino]

An hour or two goes by and I realize (feel) that my thoracic vertebrae (connected to ribs) also got a massage, and that there's new circulation in my sternum, front channel, ribs, and thoracic section of my spine.

 

Trunk

 

I think that it's been working a lot better for my thoracic vertebrae than my sternum. I'm wondering if my sternum is deeply calcified. If it is, then I might try staying at the bottom part of a dip movement with extremely heavy weight since I've felt a lot of stress on it before from doing it.

 

I'm running the orbits constantly even when I'm just sitting at the computer, I don't do it in the shower though. I'm trying to develop more sensitivity and body awareness, especially the legs (since I had the early stages of frostbite a little bit over a decade ago) and the midsection.

[Trunk]

I only did rolling stuff, just let go and roll whichever part of my body wants to contact the ball (it works until I come to a wall and have to change direction intentionally, or crash into the wall).

I'm getting a lot from just playing, as well. You can change direction by pausing on top of the ball and moving your legs to a different direction (like from feet facing wall 'X' to wall 'Y'). That way you can work around a sorta-square in a limited space.

 

 

I think that it's been working a lot better for my thoracic vertebrae than my sternum. I'm wondering if my sternum is deeply calcified. If it is, then I might try staying at the bottom part of a dip movement with extremely heavy weight since I've felt a lot of stress on it before from doing it.

I am not of the "healing through trauma" school, and think it's generally faster, more effective, and produces much more stable results if you work with a gradual, well-round approach. (Don't hurt yourself.) Just my 2 cents.

[Spectrum]

I'm getting a lot from just playing, as well. You can change direction by pausing on top of the ball and moving your legs to a different direction (like from feet facing wall 'X' to feet wall 'Y'). That way you can work around a sorta-square in a limited space.:

 

I called that the X-Pattern. We use it to warmup on the floor to. It encompasses the core movements of grappling through relocating the hips through the cross tension lines commonly developed in taji and stance training. (shrimping/ebe/hip-out)

 

On the ball the x-pattern happens when the opposite hand and foot transpose positions, I think that's what you're talking about? The hips will rotate through a range (most likely an arc or figure 8) and the core is adjusted to boot. I love the physioballs, endless ever corrective curves balanced between three bodies in motion; and still. For back strength balance on about diaphram level and slowly inch both hands and both feet off for a 'float' ... keep the play alive and it's not work at all.

 

Spectrum

Edited February 26, 2007 by Spectrum

[lino]

I am not of the "healing through trauma" school, and think it's generally faster, more effective, and produces much more stable results if you work with a gradual, well-round approach. (Don't hurt yourself.) Just my 2 cents.

 

It's a last resort and with prudence (after a two week warm up)

 

I think that I'm making some progress with my buddhist breathing alone. I think that I feel everything loosening. I'll take it extra slow when I get to the reverse breathing in a few months.

[Ian]

I am not of the "healing through trauma" school, and think it's generally faster, more effective, and produces much more stable results if you work with a gradual, well-round approach. (Don't hurt yourself.) Just my 2 cents.

 

I think this point needs to be emphasised even more in relation to physically based release methods such as these.

 

I think it's all very well to be able to use these small playful pressures to bring awareness in to the body, but I think that whether one gains from it is dependent on one's ability to accept, and surrender to, the discomforts that arise.

 

I suspect, Trunk, that you're pretty good at that and do it almost without conscious direction. I further suspect that those less adept, me for instance, may find themselves failing to relax completely and thereby putting the tension back in elsewhere, especially if the experience is really painful.

 

In other words, what you said, only more so.

[Spectrum]

I think this point needs to be emphasised even more in relation to physically based release methods such as these.

 

I think it's all very well to be able to use these small playful pressures to bring awareness in to the body, but I think that whether one gains from it is dependent on one's ability to accept, and surrender to, the discomforts that arise.

 

I further suspect that those less adept, me for instance, may find themselves failing to relax completely and thereby putting the tension back in elsewhere, especially if the experience is really painful.

 

I love chi gung because it's so much based on R-E-L-A-X-I-N-G, and feeling good and experimenting. I fell out of a tree as a kid, tree gung doesn't scare me even a bit now. It's the same set of balls they were as a kid right?

 

You'll notice Trunk has a variety of sizes and shapes and textures of balls in his assortment. Life is painful if you do not choose a path of physical integration. I think Trunk has done a brilliant job of listening to his body, allowing a natural selection process to occur w/ the result being a variety and spectrum; of small to large soft to harder, squishy to firm, all the most simple bodies which to relate to, all providing a valuable information loop for the kinesthetic sensations, lines of force/relationship (meridians in navigation and chinese medicine... hmm) Laying over the back of a couch seems mysteriously wonderful suddenly.

 

Regards,

 

Spectrum

[soaring crane]

I was back at it this evening, about an hour ago, rolling on the gym ball and really getting into it. But, it turned into a bad experience, or rather a difficult experience as I think some good is coming out of it. I found myself in a meditative state, it was after a Qigong course and I was nicely relaxed and pretty well charged-up with Qi (any of you have experience with Xi Xi Ho walking?).

 

Anyway, I got into this rhythm of rolling from abdomen to chest and then turning over and rolling down from shoulders to lumbar, kind of a reverse, water-path MCO, if you follow me. I wasn't doing it particularly fast and it felt great for a few minutes but then I began to get weirdly disoriented, dizzy and nauseas, ala the first post in the current thread on the MCO, perhaps.

 

I stopped and just sat on one of the big gym balls and breathed deeply, feeling like absolute s**t. It took me about 5 minutes before I could stand up and drive home. I'm still feeling a little residual disorientation but generally I'm doing ok.

 

Thing is... I really think it's emotional. On the way home, I couldn't stop thinking about some difficult themes from my past, things that I never really solved, things I just sort of let "fade away" and probably had convinced myself that they no longer affected me.

 

Somehow, I think I found, with the help of this list and this thread, a very powerful tool, one that I've needed for many years but one that i'm now going to treat with more respect and less silliness. And I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude.

 

That's not to suggest in the least that I think my experience means anything for anyone else or that I want give a "warning" or anything dogmatic like that. I'm sure this just my experience and I just wanted to share it.

[lino]

I was back at it this evening, about an hour ago, rolling on the gym ball and really getting into it. But, it turned into a bad experience, or rather a difficult experience as I think some good is coming out of it. I found myself in a meditative state, it was after a Qigong course and I was nicely relaxed and pretty well charged-up with Qi (any of you have experience with Xi Xi Ho walking?).

 

Anyway, I got into this rhythm of rolling from abdomen to chest and then turning over and rolling down from shoulders to lumbar, kind of a reverse, water-path MCO, if you follow me. I wasn't doing it particularly fast and it felt great for a few minutes but then I began to get weirdly disoriented, dizzy and nauseas, ala the first post in the current thread on the MCO, perhaps.

 

I stopped and just sat on one of the big gym balls and breathed deeply, feeling like absolute s**t. It took me about 5 minutes before I could stand up and drive home. I'm still feeling a little residual disorientation but generally I'm doing ok.

 

Thing is... I really think it's emotional. On the way home, I couldn't stop thinking about some difficult themes from my past, things that I never really solved, things I just sort of let "fade away" and probably had convinced myself that they no longer affected me.

 

Somehow, I think I found, with the help of this list and this thread, a very powerful tool, one that I've needed for many years but one that i'm now going to treat with more respect and less silliness. And I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude.

 

That's not to suggest in the least that I think my experience means anything for anyone else or that I want give a "warning" or anything dogmatic like that. I'm sure this just my experience and I just wanted to share it.

 

I just got some slight nausea. I don't go as far as being dizzy or disoriented for the simple reason that I love being in my body Like Michael Winn, said "shen loves jing". I love even the most unpleasant sensations that come with delayed muscle soreness simply because I have a physical body:D

[Trunk]

I was back at it this evening, about an hour ago, rolling on the gym ball and really getting into it.

...

it felt great for a few minutes but then I began to get weirdly disoriented, dizzy and nauseas, .. On the way home, I couldn't stop thinking about some difficult themes from my past, things that I never really solved,

..

Somehow, I think I found, with the help of this list and this thread, a very powerful tool, one that I've needed for many years but one that i'm now going to treat with more respect and less silliness.

Agreed that this is a strong practice, even just the rolling around.

 

I feel pleasurably strong during and right after rolling, and also sometimes find that later (often the next day) I have detox going on, such as abundant dreaming, psychological dredging, and physical lethargy-detoxy feeling. For me, ball-rolling is definately not an every-day practice, and I try to do kind circulating things on the day/s after (swimming, running, any kind of cardio exercise, stretching, drink lots of liquids).

 

btw, Somehow I feel that doing regular swiss ball exercises during the off days actually help recover from the "rubber-ball massages" .. something about "doing" (exercising the muscles) as a remedy for "getting done to" (getting massaged by the balls). Especially since swiss ball works the various core muscles so directly. I'm still experimenting with how this all works together. (Also, a plug for Adam Ford's "Swiss Ball Abs & Core" dvd: excellent!)

 

While the "rubber ball massages" have significant differences from iron shirt packing, there are similarities, and I think Michael Winn's statement has application here:

Single Biggest Danger of Packing is Failure to "UNPACK"

Give yourself as many days in between sessions as you need in order to process.

 

The detox pattern is very similar to way-back-when I was experimenting with the iron shirt stuff on my own, including jing practices, with hitting. (Except I feel that the rubber balls are much safer, much less injury-prone.) Definately the smaller balls deeply massage tissues and organs. Jing circulation and integration is noticably easier, natural.

 

Agreed that we are onto something.

 

It is a lot of fun rolling around on those balls!

This one is silly and strong.

 

 

-- later edits --

I think this point needs to be emphasised even more in relation to physically based release methods such as these.

Point taken.

 

~~~

another safety-valve for this work:

Distal acupressure.

[lino]

It's been about a month since my first post on this thread, and I've been experimenting. My current thinking is that "bouncing the front" is somewhat advanced, a little crude, and can bring up too much tension if you don't have a number of other things in place. (Such as a good back massage device, and a more moderate over-all experience with rolling around on the balls.) Still, "bouncing the front" (imo) is a good method, just I wouldn't present it as a "first single thing on its own" next time.

 

Way to go! (And, sorry to hear about your elbow, hope it heals up well.) Variety is good, with the balls, and there's lots of room to play (and

is a great starter!). The smaller balls give a deeper massage, the bigger ones better for rolling around, and the swiss ball for more structured exercises - they're all good.

 

 

Some years ago, on the HT board, someone (who was that guy?.. I've forgotten) described how iron shirt packing flooded the tissues with blood, and was so crucial for jing gong. I argued that the packing techniques were dangerous for people with stagnation, cause the packing tended to force tension deeper into the channels & tissues. (For people with open channels & tissues, like him, it worked great.) It's my current experience that playing with, rolling around on, these pliable balls relatively safely and very effectively (both much more so than IS packing) accomplishes that goal of IS packing: massages the tissues and organs, circulates blood, opens the channels. This is so important as a complement for any of the aroused practices, because the main danger of saving aroused jing is that it tends to cause heat and stagnation everywhere, which must be processed and resolved, or you're f###ed.

 

-- later edit --

I mean, think about it: I can put my whole body-weight (minus feet, & maybe hands, for stability) on one of these balls, and roll all over my torso as much as I want, any time I want. That's a pretty strong massage (and a work-out to boot). I can't afford the time & $ to get a massage that often, and it is so healthy!

 

What do you do with the sock and four tennis balls?

[Trunk]

What do you do with the sock and four tennis balls?

Massage the back (link).

[Spectrum]

Trunk,

 

Am I correct in assuming that one of your goals w/ using the various sizes for both large trunk and smaller channel type work is to have clear front and rear central meridians (ren/du) in which to practice Taoist mco type meditations?

 

Regards,

 

Spectrum

[Yoda]

I wonder how rolling back and forth on the floor between tailbone and shoulders compares to using a back roller? I'd assume rolling is less intense and more accessible as there's often a clean floor around.

[Trunk]

your goals .. (ren/du) .. mco type meditations?

Definately the rubber balls are helping with that (in a big way), and that is part of my view. Over the years a lot of other things get included as part of the path, and the emphasis of the mco in relation to other things shifts around. But, yup, it's definately part of what I'm getting from the rubber ball work.

 

I guess it brings up the topic, "what's the view of the path?", and that is just such a huge topic... Even looking just through the prism of the HT system, this rubber ball stuff addresses a lot. Orbit, iron shirt, marrow washing, organs, ...

 

I wonder how (playground ball?) rolling back and forth on the floor between tailbone and shoulders compares to using a (wooden) back roller? I'd assume (playground ball) rolling is less intense and more accessible as there's often a clean floor around.

I added the italized words for clarity. I've been using them all on the floor, so for me the floor issue is the same for all of them (except that I find the wooden roller works best with yoga mat underneath it, the rubbery tack keeps it from sliding around).

 

I find that playground ball and socked-tennis-balls are both much more accessible than the wooden roller, for working on the spine. Mostly, for me, because the wooden roller is somewhat painful. I've dropped the wooden roller in favor of the others on account of that, but I'm a middle aged guy with a few extra pounds; it might be different for some of you young whipper-snappers.

 

For me, in order of increasing intensity for rolling up & down the spine:

- mikasa playground balls, larger -> smaller (mostly the smaller)

- socked-tennis-balls, 4 -> 2

 

The smaller playground balls, rolled directly on the spine, are pretty interesting and effective. And the 2-socked-tennis-balls are as intense as I want to go (I use the 4 more often).

 

 

-- later edit --

The smaller playground balls are also effective to lie on & massage the sacrum: it not only massages, also engages the muscles immediate to the sacrum.

[thaddeus]

are any of you guys aware of Yamuna body rolling? You might want to check out what she's doing..

T

[Eric23]

I wonder how rolling back and forth on the floor between tailbone and shoulders compares to using a back roller? I'd assume rolling is less intense and more accessible as there's often a clean floor around.

 

I've done this at the end of my yoga routine for years now. Sit w/ knees to chest, wrap arms around legs and roll back and forth. Take it nice and slow. Can feel my back popping etc. I learned early on that the best results are when your back mucscles are loose, hence saving it for last. Been doing it on a carpeted floor at home with good results, on the road in hotel rooms I've found some floors without the amount of padding at home and it's not as good. I also avoid this if there is something tweeked in my back, and wait until the pain goes down.

[soaring crane]

Any thoughts here on Mingmen and Dazhui pertaining to these exercises?

 

Trunk, your essay on sacrum pulsing is interesting. Although I've learned to draw Qi through the sacrum, I've only viewed it a connection between Weilu and Migmen, or, better, Huiyin/Weilu/Mingmen.

 

So I'm wondering how you (all) view the role of these gates in your exercise. And also Dazhui, the seventh neck vertebrae. The big Yang train station, so to speak. Dazhui is probably the hardest gate for most people to open and moreover, to keep from closing quickly.

 

In my modest practice till now, I've concentrated a lot more on the points than the paths between them, but I'm getting a pleasant new perspective here, thank you.

Edited February 28, 2007 by soaring crane

[lino]

I find that playground ball and socked-tennis-balls are both much more accessible than the wooden roller, for working on the spine. Mostly, for me, because the wooden roller is somewhat painful. I've dropped the wooden roller in favor of the others on account of that, but I'm a middle aged guy with a few extra pounds; it might be different for some of you young whipper-snappers.

 

the ma roller is a godsend to me. I laid down on it with the base of my skull on it and it fed me an image of phosphenes that was breathtaking. I saw a purple web with three black holes in line vertically, with the lowest black hole spinning

 

All of my tendons and ligaments are starting to loosen up along with the junk and crud around them. I'm going to have to work at it a little more because I think that the mingmen is finally opening up and it feels like my spine is actually breathing.

[Spectrum]

Any thoughts here on Mingmen and Dazhui pertaining to these exercises?

 

The front and back of the body (ren and du) have an inseperable interconnection.

 

... wondering how you (all) view the role of these gates in your exercise.

 

Practice actively opens tunes balances and closes main and lesser gates.

 

And also Dazhui, the seventh neck vertebrae. The big Yang train station, so to speak. Dazhui is probably the hardest gate for most people to open and moreover, to keep from closing quickly.

 

Specific Asanas for elongating and compressing the entire spinal column. Inversion / Spinal Decompression / Etc.

 

... I've concentrated a lot more on the points than the paths between them, but I'm getting a pleasant new perspective here, thank you.

 

You might consider an art like Tai Chi or Bagua for connecting the dots. Actually even if you know a basic chi gung form like the Holding the three circles after Tai Chi, you could technically freeform this into a wei dan if you are familiar w/ the physiology of chi gung practice. (ie the physiological process of opening / closing the body transcends specific styles, less we would have no convention of truth seeking here at taobums)

Edited March 4, 2007 by Spectrum