Where are the internal martial arts in the UFC?

[Yi Tao]

I firmly believe in the crazy martial arts legends of the past, but where are they today?

 

Chuck Liddell is one of the greatest fighters alive, but he's just a street brawler. He uses insane, unorthodox punching and amazing take down defense to create an unbeatable combination.

 

I've heard of jujitsu in the mixed martial arts, but never Bagua or I Chuan. I've never heard chi power mentioned either.

 

What's going on? I can only come up with 2 answers. Either it wouldn't work or they don't have the desire to try.

 

I'm really curious, especially about I Chuan. The original master would take on any and all competitors. He was not averse to organized fighting. I can only assume that we've lost something.

[Pietro]

I firmly believe in the crazy martial arts legends of the past, but where are they today?

 

Chuck Liddell is one of the greatest fighters alive, but he's just a street brawler. He uses insane, unorthodox punching and amazing take down defense to create an unbeatable combination.

 

I've heard of jujitsu in the mixed martial arts, but never Bagua or I Chuan. I've never heard chi power mentioned either.

 

What's going on? I can only come up with 2 answers. Either it wouldn't work or they don't have the desire to try.

 

I'm really curious, especially about I Chuan. The original master would take on any and all competitors. He was not averse to organized fighting. I can only assume that we've lost something.

i think there are competitions of bagua. Why don't you ask Frank Allen from NYC? He surely will know.

[Lozen]

There's huge debates on this on almost every MA site I know. Internal arts folks say their arts are too deadly for the UFC. UFC folks say internal arts don't work. Then it degenerates into name-calling.

[thelerner]

In the early days, there were many different martial arts competing. There were fewer rules, no rounds and fighters would compete several times in the same night, injured or not. Those early days were dominated by the Gracies, doing quick take downs. It took years before people learned defenses.

 

In one fight Gracie won, but was too injured to continue to the next fight. The substitute was an Ninjitsu artist. He was the closest to internal I've seen in the octagon. He slipped a punch, connected shoulder to shoulder w/ his opponent, shrugged and tossed him down, without using his hands. Then a skillful ground and pound and he won. As far as I know he never fought again.

 

Michael

[Cameron]

This may be another perspective. From my experience the training internal martial artiists do sort of removes the desire to compete. Maybe the training itself sort of just takes you to a place you don't need to 'prove' yourself anymore.

 

I mean, if you really feel you have the ability to more or less kill someone with a shot or break there arm with little effort or whatever you have that confidence inside but don't necissarily want to prove it.

 

The last Jet Li movie sort of talks about it. I think it's called Fearless. Really cool movie with deep lessons about martial arts and the ego aspects of fighting.

 

UFC and MMA are entertaining to a point but for long term training Ime going to turn towards the more internal. Which for me will be Aikido, Bagua Zhang and Shing Yi.

 

Cam

[Smile]

Chuck Liddell is all internal. There is another latin guy Pedro Izzo (puncher) that beat up Tank Abbot really bad 6 or so years ago. His punches are like Chuck's.

There is also an amaizing russian figter Amar Suloev but I thing he doesn't do UFC anymore. Too bad because the timing this guy has is just incredible.

[Lozen]

Chuck Liddell studied internal arts?

[Yi Tao]

This may be another perspective. From my experience the training internal martial artiists do sort of removes the desire to compete. Maybe the training itself sort of just takes you to a place you don't need to 'prove' yourself anymore.

 

I mean, if you really feel you have the ability to more or less kill someone with a shot or break there arm with little effort or whatever you have that confidence inside but don't necissarily want to prove it.

 

Again the story of Yi Chuan. Wang Sheng Chai founded Yi Chuan in the 1920's. In the 1940's he invited people to come test his abilities. Many martial artists and boxers accepted the challenge, but Wang Sheng Chai was never defeated. He was victorious without killing or maiming, and many of his opponents became his students and friends.

 

He is a very unique case and may be the exception that proves the rule.

 

I haven't seen Fearless yet, but I will. I love "The One" (also with Jet Li) because of the final battle of Bagua against Yi Chuan: cirlcles against straight lines. Now that's fun!

[Cameron]

Yes. Wang Zhang Xai of China, Morihei Ueshiba from Japan and the Great Gama of India are like the 3 super men of the last century. Each was said to be basically indestructable.

 

If I have to guess...each of these warriors began SERIOUS training from a young age and had from what I can gather bold natures. They werent your typical martial artists. Each had the goal to be the greatest martial artist and basically no one else was even close.

 

Also, their entire lives were dedicated to training. We are talking like training all day every day for their entire lives. Who can really train like that in modern times?

 

Of course, it would be intereting to see another internal fighter like that. I think someone mentioned Master Kenny Gong had that kind of abilty. I may begin training in his system this year. I don't know if I will have the time. But if I do I will. Then at the very least I can say I easily defeated some BJJ blackbelt or whatever using internal MA.

 

But to be honest, I don't really have the deisre to 'test it' myself. And I don't have any delusions about being able to beat Chuck Lidell or Crocop or something. I look a those guys as professional athletes. You might as well try to use kung fu against a 400 lb NFL linebacker or something. It might work..but you better not let him get on top of you!

[Lozen]

Every once in a while MMA guys get stabbed... In fact I have a friend who teaches taijutsu who had a student who was an expert Thai boxer and a black belt in BJJ who got stabbed in a street fight. He was on top of his opponent in mount beating his face in when he got stabbed in the leg, just inches from his artery. So MMA prepares you more for competition than for real fights.

 

OTOH a lot of people who train internal arts never practice alive (see the Thornton video I posted a while ago), so while they may think they have these awesome deadly skills, they wouldn't be able to apply them against even a modicum of resistance.

 

I say train everything.

[Pietro]

This may be another perspective. From my experience the training internal martial artiists do sort of removes the desire to compete. Maybe the training itself sort of just takes you to a place you don't need to 'prove' yourself anymore.

 

I mean, if you really feel you have the ability to more or less kill someone with a shot or break there arm with little effort or whatever you have that confidence inside but don't necissarily want to prove it.

 

The argument doesn't actually stand. If a person has reached that place of not needing to prove, he would still want to have the new generation reach it too, instead of just playing the external martial art game. So he would still compete. Just not to win for himself, but to show what can be accompliced to have more people reach the enlightenment he has reached.

[Pero]

I love "The One" (also with Jet Li) because of the final battle of Bagua against Yi Chuan: cirlcles against straight lines. Now that's fun!

 

Hmm, wasn`t that actually Bagua against Hsing Yi? In any case, it was a cool scene.

[Agni]

In my opinion there is just too many rules in UFC for a traditional martial artist to really compete.

 

I study Wing Chun and a few of my friends do MMA. MMA is really about competition where as traditional martial arts were made for survival and are deadly if used correctly.

 

I would think the REAL martial arts masters know that they do not need to feed their ego's by entering such competitions.

 

Every fighting style has its merits and its weaknesses but the truth of it is most UFC fights take place on the ground, and if they get you down there you are in trouble. Nothing is certain in a fight.

[Cameron]

The argument doesn't actually stand. If a person has reached that place of not needing to prove, he would still want to have the new generation reach it too, instead of just playing the external martial art game. So he would still compete. Just not to win for himself, but to show what can be accompliced to have more people reach the enlightenment he has reached.

 

 

I don't know if 'the argument' stands or not. Just saying maybe that is a reason you don't see any real IMA wanting to fight in 'cage fighting' or MMA shows.

 

I mean you hear these stories occasionally. Like from Matt Furey. Who from all accounts is a very strong, athletic guy who has competed as a wrestler etc. and he claims he emt an IMA in China who with ONE FINGER could over power Furey. I don't know if it's true or not. I mean I like matt, I like how he brought bodyweight training to the public. But I can't say his word is necissarily 100% factual truth.

 

But, if he's is telling the truth about that .Then you hav ea guy in China that has more strength in a finger than Furey whole 200 lb combat conditioning body. And for whatever reason that person has no interest in going to Japan or the USA and making millions of dollars beating MMA fighters with his finger.

 

I don't know. I mean wouldn't Furey do everything in his power to make a DVD of this guy to make money off of if it was true?

 

Maybe on the other side of the coin if you have that power and can throw around a 200 lb wrestler with one finger you don't have the desire to fight in a cage with millions of people watching, girls probably throwing themselves at you, making alot of money etc etc.

 

Hmmm....