Desiring What Is

[Cameron]

Nirmala

[Wayfarer64]

Yeah acceptance of what is , making it yr own - can work for over-coming much suffering.

 

But since I don't think Buddha got it any more right than Jesus or Mohammed in his system or approach, I should recuse myself from commenting on his path.

 

I am a Taoist. I do not believe that all of my suffering is caused by desire. I understand the concept, but see too many exceptions to buy it as a whole cloth.

 

There is lots of suffering that just happens in one's life, accepting it and not desiring it to change could be foolish at times. We have will power to over-come obsticles and fears and harms that come our way without accepting their power over us.

 

I do not accept the power of my desire as supreme in these matters I concider my consciouness of the situation to be supreme and my place in the situation can be adapted by my will power to change the out-come.

 

I do not have to let it make me suffer through several techniques, one of which is accepting the bare fact of the predicament and going with it without letting it make me suffer.

 

To a Taoist there are no set ways of dealing with suffering nor one reason to imagine we are suffering. The world is far more complex than that.

[Pero]

I understand the concept, but see too many exceptions to buy it as a whole cloth.

 

What exceptions?

 

 

To a Taoist there are no set ways of dealing with suffering nor one reason to imagine we are suffering. The world is far more complex than that.

 

Who`s imagining?

 

 

[Wayfarer64]

OK- The basic example that comes to mind is this...

 

If I need to get from point A (birth) to point B (death) and stubb my toe somewhere along the way to B, it is not my need nor desire to get to B that caused my suffering. It was the lack of attention that I gave to what I was doing that caused me to stubb my toe.

 

It is my lack of being mondful that causes my suffering, my inability to deal with change, not my desire to leave point A.

 

If I were to give up my desire or acceptance of my need to get to B, and accept point A as my lot in life, I would have avoided the stubbed toe and the experience of the journey as well, that was glorious and wonderful and did not have suffering as a componant.

 

I have no desire to cease my incarnations but to learn from them and have more journeys well past point B onwards...

 

The imagine reference is to the idea that all life is suffering. Only when we do not understand what is going on would that be the case.

 

Many Buddhist concepts just do not ring true for me. Here is a guy who had no clue as to the realities of this existance for the first several years of his life. How was he to learn the adaptation practices most people learn to deal with hard-knocks by puberty. He had a lot of catching up to do and passed by the basic lessons of life to come up with a generic sort of pablum to address suffering.

 

What he saw as suffering, most folks see as that which they transcend through hard-work and understanding. Being scared of life and death is a sort of hell itself. Get used to stubbing your toe now and then, to get on with the joys of life's journey.

 

I do not think that Buddhism offers any clue on how to live, except for the compassion thing. But as El Tortuga has written, there is some good advice on how to approach death. Once there, I would not want to stay in the Buddhist model either. There are too many other options that are not hellish.

[Pero]

Hmmm, ok. Some good points I think.

 

If I need to get from point A (birth) to point B (death) and stubb my toe somewhere along the way to B, it is not my need nor desire to get to B that caused my suffering. It was the lack of attention that I gave to what I was doing that caused me to stubb my toe.

 

It is my lack of being mondful that causes my suffering, my inability to deal with change, not my desire to leave point A.

 

Yeah, but, Buddhism (well, at least Dzogchen) also teaches awareness. If you are aware of your circumstances and such you can act accordingly, how is that not learning how to live?

I guess more correct than saying desire is a cause, would be that attachment is a cause of suffering. In this case, it would be attachement to your toe. Just don`t ask me if your toe wouldn`t hurt if you weren`t attached to it, I`m not enlightened.

 

 

I have no desire to cease my incarnations but to learn from them and have more journeys well past point B onwards...

 

Hmm, but how can you tell you are learning at all? And, how can you tell, that a few more incarnations won`t bring you to Buddhism?

 

 

The imagine reference is to the idea that all life is suffering. Only when we do not understand what is going on would that be the case.

 

But, if one really understands what`s going one, basically means, he`s enlightened...

 

Many Buddhist concepts just do not ring true for me. Here is a guy who had no clue as to the realities of this existance for the first several years of his life. How was he to learn the adaptation practices most people learn to deal with hard-knocks by puberty. He had a lot of catching up to do and passed by the basic lessons of life to come up with a generic sort of pablum to address suffering.

 

What he saw as suffering, most folks see as that which they transcend through hard-work and understanding. Being scared of life and death is a sort of hell itself. Get used to stubbing your toe now and then, to get on with the joys of life's journey.

 

Well, I don`t think everything from Buddhism rings true for me either. I don`t even consider myself to be totaly Buddhist (though from my last posts it probably seems that way).

But, what you`re saying sounds like Buddhism to me... Suffering is indeed transcended through hard work and understanding. And who`s scared of life and death?

 

I do not think that Buddhism offers any clue on how to live, except for the compassion thing. But as El Tortuga has written, there is some good advice on how to approach death. Once there, I would not want to stay in the Buddhist model either. There are too many other options that are not hellish.

 

That`s because you haven`t researched Buddhism enough, in the past I didn`t like it that much either. But it offers as much clue on how to live as does any other system. But of course, you take the system that suits you. What works for someone else, doesn`t neccessarily work for me or you. At least that`s how I see it.

What Buddhist model are you reffering to? I don`t know what you mean with your last two sentences.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi again,

I will retract the "any clue" comment. There is much there of value. But the many forms of Buddhism that I have studied can not come close to the deep "getting it" that I derive from my Taoist studies. It fits my world view much better.

 

I suggest for anyone who seeks answers to their stumbling-blocks to consult the Yi Ching and use it as a spring-board into introspection of the way one deals with the situations at hand. Find out how you best can deal with the world with yr strengths and weaknesses being addressed as things that can be changed.

 

My last two sentences refer to my understanding that there are many many options we have as spirits freed from this mortality.

 

Avoiding the clinging to the past life or even our past within this life comes closer to my world view than holding desires , particularly if they refer to the future.

 

Who is scared of life and death- I refer to those who would stay as close to A (clinging) as possible rather than risk the stubbed toe.

 

If the Buddhism you practice is about not clinging I would say that is a path I can relate to. But any path that doeasn't have an acceptance of a journey thwart with struggle as well as adventure seems pretty vapid to me.

 

Your practice of Buddhism seems pretty close to a Taoist approach. I do not wish to deride Buddhism, but to clarify that it is not Taoism. There are of course a lot of similar elements as most faiths and many philosophies share in searching...

[Pero]

So we agree.

 

Edited January 29, 2007 by Pero

[Wayfarer64]

I think enlightenment is much more common than we suspect. The awakening is opening one's mind in a very basic way that most here at the TaoBums seem to have accomplished.

 

The moribound billions are not there over the millenia, so enlightenment may remain pretty constant as a percentage of the population of human beings. But I would assume some enlightened beings get to reincarnate as an otter or an owl or even as a tardigrade just to round-out their kharma...Though I suspect that humans are generally the most enlightened beings, whales have much larger brains and may actually have a wider grasp of the worlds' actual situation as a whole...

 

I know not how true these suppositions are, but it remains a joy to contemplate thus...Peace-PDG

[Cameron]

edit-I want to study more with Nirmala before I comment on anything he has written or said. Will see him again this weekend. I don't have anything to say about Buddha or Lao Tsu or Jesus or anyone like that.

[Wayfarer64]

Cam I concur.

 

The problem I have is that here at the TaoBums we can make these ideas work FOR us. But most people that ask me my religion/faith are very Confused by my response.

 

I have gotten to the point where I claim panthism, (all of the above as it were)...Rather than try to explain what I find useful in various philosophies.

 

If I claim Taoism as my primary source of spiritual inspiration, then I usually have to explain Taoism in terms that bring folks -(who are generally unconcerned philisophically with anything)- Away from their Buddhistic misconceptions.

 

So bringing them together again here works fine. But alas, where people know little of Taoism it is a barrier to understanding. I guess I was wearing my outside hat and keeping in practice for the Born-again Christians who bang on my door most weekends.

 

I have even brought a copy of the Yi Jing to court as a substitute for the bible to swear on.-(Which did not go over well by the way), so now I just go with the bible and realize it IS ALL one in the end...

[Cameron]

Yes. These are really deep discussions. To be honest alot of this stuff is way above my head. My view going forward is not to be in any rush or hurry to formulate an opinion. I am totally comfortable not formulating opinions on any of these deep questions until I really,really,really, really feel that I know.

 

So, I'll defer to my teachers for now. Good luck in your study of I Ching and Taoism.

 

Cam

[Yoda]

If you desire what is then you don't have desire... I don't think anyone has ever fit that mold!

 

Having said that, I think that gratitude, reverence, peace, and intrinsic happiness are what most people could use more of.

[Cameron]

If you desire what is then you don't have desire... I don't think anyone has ever fit that mold!

 

Having said that, I think that gratitude, reverence, peace, and intrinsic happiness are what most people could use more of.

 

 

Hehe. man, I hate this place. Can't I go one day without responding to someones opinion?

 

LOL!

 

So..Yoda..let's say, for arguments sake, that everything you think makes up Yoda is an illusion. Not that it doesn't have validity and helps you make your way through time and space. Helps you have good health and friends and beautiful kids and a nice home etc.

 

But, let's say there is this other side to Yoda. An aspect that is already complete and perfect as it is. And this perfect Yoda doesn't need to seek the next cool thing or get the next cool insight it's already there.

 

Mind you, I agree with you on many, many levels. The first time I saw Nirmala he made the point that most people seek more and better.

 

I would put myself in that boat. Without a doubt I am in the same boat with everyone else seeking more and better. But what if that search is just the ego's need?

 

I don't have any problem with an ego existing and having needs and desires. I mean, that's what makes the world go round right?

 

Or maybe not. Maybe we just think our egos and desires are so great but all the really good stuff humanity has come up with is coming from a deeper place?

 

Sailor Bob calls it 'intelligence energy'. Nirmala says 'desire what is', Adyashanti says 'Stop' etc etc ad nauseum.

 

I think they are basically trying to point us to this deeper place of wholeness, silence, peace etc where there are no problems. And the search for more and better sort of pales in comparison to this other possibilty..a deep love and appreciation for life as it is. Or a desire for what is. Or just stopping and seeing what's actually in front of you.

 

I still think the manifesting teachings and all that are cool. Just another point of view. And Ime really not even qualified to speak from it myself but couldn't resist.

 

One thing I though was funny from the article was how Nirmala said when you really desire what is the ego's new job description becomes "Do nothing".

 

What healthy ego wants to be out of a job!LOL!

 

Open to feedback as always. I post this stuff for feedback as much as to share what I am personally studying. I value people here's thoughts.

 

 

Edit- One other thing I wanted to just mention than I am done posting for awhile. What if this deeper place these teachers are talking about is not a desire free all is well limbo land. What if it is themost powerful and most creative and most beautiful and most exiciting and most fulfilling place we can live our life from? Just a thought, as I think there is misunderstanding on these things(including within myself).

 

Cam

[Japhy Ryder]

Wayfarer64, I feel you're right that enlightenment is much more common than is realized. For the majority of homo sapiens who don't practice inner-self management (through meditation, etc.), it's much easier to ascribe supernatural powers to Jesus Christ, Buddha, and other folks described in scripture than to accept responsibility for becoming fully conscious themselves.

 

I like the idea of rounding out my karma by coming back as an otter or owl. In fact, I think that in T.H. White's Once and Future King, Merlin transforms young Arthur into those creatures, among others, to teach him how to think, act, and speak as a mindful human fully cognizant of his abilities and responsibilities.

 

What's a tardigrade?

[Wayfarer64]

What's a tardigrade?

 

Thanks JR,

It may be wishful thinking but the species seems to be moving ahead...

 

 

Its funny that that book chose some of the same critters I would want to try being.

 

A tardigrade is an almost indestructibles little mighty mite... Not sure of species phylum etc... But it is a remarkable little adaptor that has been subjected to freezing/ boiling!! conditions and kept on kicking -try a google I think the spelling is right...-PDG

[Japhy Ryder]

I definitely feel and often think (depending on how assiduously I avoid conventional, gloomy-doomy mass media) that humans are evolving. Awhile back Edge magazine asked over a hundred world-class, Third Culture thinkers "What are you optimistic about? Why?" Their replies, indexed here (http://edge.org/q2007/q07_index.html) are incredibly diverse and endlessly stimulating to read and ponder.

 

Thanks, Wayfarer64, for the info about tardigrades. Perhaps qigong needs a Tardigrade Frolic to complement the Five (other) Animal Frolics.

[Ian]

http://www.tardigrades.com

[Yoda]

Here's another page telling of their extreme ruggedness:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrades

 

Cute little guys.

[Wayfarer64]

I was just amusing myself thinking how the Tardigrade entries may belong on the supernatural powers thread...Maybe the great masters reincarnate as tardigrades. so they can remain humble in their prowess!

Thank you Ian for the link-I think I shall pop it over to the super-natural thread just for a laugh!-

 

In any case those little critters have a great life style if they find a mossy bivuac. They lack for nothing with a drop of water and some moss, and when they get nothing they just desicate and "meditate" for ten years!