Gun violence and apple pie

[Green Tiger]

I used to think it was a product of the 'wild west' mentality we have in places like Texas where people still believe that cold steel is the answer to all of life's problems.

 

Then I read some statistics about gun violence being mostly gang violence and decided that it was still a culture thing, only thug culture rather than cowboy culture.

 

Now we've got wackjobs coming out of the woodwork, spraying innocent people due to some sick twisted desire for fame or maybe it's a disconnect they have with humanity or sanity or whatever makes people think that mass murder is a good way to go out. So I started to think that it was a mental illness thing, rather than a thug thing or a cowboy thing.

 

But more and more, I'm starting to feel like it's an American thing. It's hard to tell, since almost 100% of the people I know are Americans and most of them seem pretty nonchalant about killing.

 

I talk to my friends and most of them think that guns are necessary. Guns aren't the problem--they are the solution! We need more guns to kill all these bad bad people. We need an armed populace so that criminals are scared. Guns are the primary tool for personal protection. Mace is for pussies. Nunchucks? Really? What, do you think you're a ninja turtle or something?

 

That makes me think of that kid down in Florida who got shot by a neighborhood watch patrolman. Mace or a tazer would have been a much more reasonable response there. When a gun is the only tool in your toolbox, every problem looks like a nail.

 

Then there is the general sentiment about the military. We love our military. God Bless our service men and women. They protect our freedoms! They are all that stands between us and total, worldwide chaos.

 

Our Military invades third-world countries who haven't attacked us or even threatened us and we don't really get all that excited about it. Sure a few hippies will protest, but that's just what hippies do. We seem to have redefined national defense to mean, "Kill anyone who doesn't seem to like us very much if we can get away with it." And usually, we can get away with it. We massacre a wedding party in Pakistan and all we have to do is make a formal apology, send the family a little monetary gift, and we wash our hands of it. "Here's some money, sorry we murdered your family. It was in the name of American freedom!"

 

I really don't like it when people are murdered in my name. I feel I am a minority among my peers though. It doesn't seem to bother many people, or they are just too fascinated by some new app or sporting event to notice.

 

So . . . I guess, aside from venting a bit, I'm curious what other people (particularly people in other countries) think about gun violence. Is there something about American culture that makes us less sensitive to this kind of thing, or are all my friends just sociopaths?

[joeblast]

Where the heck do you live where people are nonchalant about killing? That's just really odd to me, I know plenty of people that value their 2nd amendment rights and at the same time abhor killing. (Pests aside for the majority though.) That sounds like a twisted extrapolation to me.

[Green Tiger]

Southern Iowa.

 

I suppose, if asked, "Do you like or abhor killing?" most of the people I have in mind would say that they abhor it. However, they would be very quick to point out the circumstances under which they would gun someone down without batting an eye. A home invasion, for instance, or (the current favorite scenario) a US Military-enforced seizure of firearms. It is not so much the indifference to killing, but actually the idealized killing fantasy that makes me feel uneasy. It's like these people have bought all these guns and would just love an excuse to use them on someone.

 

The impetus for my post was mostly a reaction to the sentiment I've heard a lot lately that, "If the government wants my guns they'll have to pry them from my cold dead hands." I think the government is smart enough to realize that they would start a civil war if they tried to seize firearms. I don't think some citizens are smart enough to realize that stockpiling firearms is (at best) pointless and (at worst) dangerous. In their minds, I think they consider it a very prudent and practical thing to do. Like they actually expect a civil war or social chaos to erupt at any second.

 

It's just unsettling to me that so many people I know seem enchanted by the idea of gun battle. I can't figure out why. Then again, I'm enchanted by the idea of kung fu battle so . . . maybe they've watched a lot of war movies. Played a lot of FPS video games. I don't know.

 

Maybe guns just aren't my thing and I'm trying to relate to these people who seem so passionate about them.

 

Additionally, when I've asked them how they feel about atrocities committed by our military, in our name, they have all asserted that these were unfortunate side-effects of a war for the greater good and, ultimately, acceptable. I feel pretty passionate about not putting our military in those sorts of circumstances and somehow feel I value human life more than some that I've spoke to. Or perhaps it is just that I value all human life equally and don't consider middle easterners to be 'second-rate humans' or whatever the trending derogatory nomenclature might be.

 

If I look around the internet, it is easy to find web sites condemning the actions of the American military. Do these people live in Switzerland? I feel like no one around me would ever agree that anything the American military does could ever be wrong. Are we brainwashed? What gives?

 

Then I turn the eye of scrutiny upon myself and ask, "What is it about me that makes me think differently?" I think it has a lot to do with the boxer revolution in China and the movie The Last Samurai. Oh, and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Guns seem so uncivilized.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Green Tiger

[Aetherous]

It's just unsettling to me that so many people I know seem enchanted by the idea of gun battle.

 

I think you're completely misinterpreting the common person's point of view here. No one actually wants that to happen. They want peace.

 

Govt maintains American and human rights = all's good. Really.

[Green Tiger]

I think you're completely misinterpreting the common person's point of view here. No one actually wants that to happen. They want peace.

 

Govt maintains American and human rights = all's good. Really.

 

The common person, maybe. I should hope there is nothing 'common' about the people to whom I am referring. They do not want peace. They want a civil war. They make daily public statements about how a civil war is inevitable, because (they think) a wide-scale gun seizure is just over the horizon. These are the same people who have been stocking up on firearms for years because they thought some sort of infrastructure meltdown was coming in 2012. That didn't happen, so now they're turning their focus to the next likely cause of infrastructure meltdown: civil war over gun rights.

 

I agree that "all's good." I think the government is doing a pretty damn good job, considering what they've got to work with. I could see how they could have done a lot worse. What I don't understand is why some people (and I am really only referring to about ten people I know, mostly through Facebook, I should hope this is not more widespread but I suspect it is not isolated to these individuals) want to clang the alarm bell and a call to arms. I seriously think they want a war in their own backyard.

[Green Tiger]

I feel I should also clarify that when I said that 'most people I know seem pretty nonchalant about killing' I should have said "several people I have talked to about the statements made by these individuals were sympathetic and seemed to consider large scale bloodshed to be par for the course with humanity. That surprised me. I thought most people would agree that world peace was not only desirable, but possible. I thought more people would find views that favor violence to be radical, but I have not been finding that to be the case."

[Marblehead]

I feel I should also clarify that when I said that 'most people I know seem pretty nonchalant about killing' I should have said "several people I have talked to about the statements made by these individuals were sympathetic and seemed to consider large scale bloodshed to be par for the course with humanity. That surprised me. I thought most people would agree that world peace was not only desirable, but possible. I thought more people would find views that favor violence to be radical, but I have not been finding that to be the case."

And you know what? It is going to get worse, not better. And this is a result of how the media advertises it. And too, how America has so easily gone to war recently. No, I don't have any answers.

[Enishi]

Besides personal self defense (a need which can indeed be meet by mace or owning a large dog), the major reason for the 2nd Amendment IS to give citizens protection from their own government. This doesn't mean however that there would ever be some sort of showdown between citizens/militias and the army. I agree that many of those who hoard weapons and fantasize about taking on the military and such are deluding themselves, a well-trained military unit with tanks and other advanced weaponry is going to curb stomp most small militia groups. One could disagree with that by pointing to the American Revolution, but the circumstances in that are somewhat different due to the fact that even though the Colonists were rebelling against the government they were beholden to on paper, the British government was on the other side of the ocean and had to send manpower and resources overseas. Therefore, the 'Revolution' was more akin to a defense against a foreign invader (violent Revolutions that occur entirely within a country tend not to end so well).

 

A crack down on militia groups/militants would not however be able to go down without casualties or significant expenditure of resources if the civil unrest got bad enough. In that sense, the main purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to serve as a political DETERRENT. A wide scale crackdown would only happen after it's removed or whittled down to almost nothing.

I don't actually own a gun myself, my landlord wont allow it. If I ever do get one for defense in the future I'd likely get a single 19th century revolver for historical/sentimental value.

 

Guns are uncivilized in one sense I agree. However, removing them from society would only make sense if said removal occurred in the army, law enforcement, and other countries simultaneously. Remove them from the public alone, and you leave things unbalanced. Without the aforementioned political determent, the already horrible and corrupt American government will have more leeway to get even worse.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Enishi

[Marblehead]

ah! My horrible and corrupt government. But it's the only one I have. Oh well.

[joeblast]

One citizen told the council that if the fact that citizens who are merely exercising their right to keep and bear arms intimidates city officials, then they need to look within to determine why the rights of the people are so intimidating to them.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/armed-citizens-force-officials-to-back-down