Interpretations of Wu Wei?

[Phi92]

Phi92, the reason that ziran (also spelled tzu jan) keeps coming up, is this -- I interpret ziran as the way things organically unfold by their own nature. Each person, animal, plant, thing and all of them together. It's a radically dynamic viewpoint, compared to false static view of most scientific thinking. Like everyone dances in their own way, and all are dancing together.

 

Wu wei is to act without getting in the way of ziran -- not just because you want to be nice to nature, but because that is the natural way of the world, and you will be much more powerful and effective if you play along, instead of fighting it. In the U.S. we have a saying, "you can't fight the tide." Actually you can, but you will work very hard and probably not succeed anyway.

 

Mark, I believe our view is more-or-less simmilar then

[Phi92]

The Sage simply knows what and when to do(assuming with no harm done in any way). The "no harm done" must be hidden in the notion, in order, to fit the definition of Wu Wei.

 

Of course, no harm to nature!

 

Btw. do I get extra points in Daoism for being a vegetarian then?

[ChiDragon]

Of course, no harm to nature!

 

Btw. do I get extra points in Daoism for being a vegetarian then?

Yes, you do indeed....

Edited February 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Btw. do I get extra points in Daoism for being a vegetarian then?

Hehehe. Not from me you won't.

[ChiDragon]

The rain drops into the soil. The soaking soil becomes loosen and causing a land slight. As a result, all the rocks and trees are fallen off into someone's house. All this happening by Nature is called a natural disaster but that was all Ziran(自然).

Edited February 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yep.

[thinker]

Btw. do I get extra points in Daoism for being a vegetarian then?

 

Sorry. IMHO, no. Meat eating is natural for omnivores. Humans are omnivores. The fact that we can, with sufficiently careful supplementation, survive well even on a vegan diet doesn't change this. While it can be argued that "intensive farming" of meat is both cruel and unnatural, and I would agree, this doesn't change the fact that human consumption of meat is, in itself, natural. I would expect Daoists, of all people, to have respect for nature, including even its unpleasant aspects.

 

Today there are Daoist sects that practice vegetarianism. I believe that this came from two sources. First, borrowings from Buddhism. Second, necessity. Meat was very scare and expensive in China around the time of the Han dynasty. Newly formed Daoist monasteries would have had many mouths to feed, little ability to acquire meat. and no desire to listen to a large group of monks constantly complaining about the restricted diet. The simplest solution for the head monks would have been to make a virtue out of a necessity, and suddenly experience a divine revelation to the extent that true devotion to Daoism required that one become a vegan. Instant cost savings. No more complaints. And it gives the monks a relatively harmless form of hardship to experience as part of their devotions, which is generally good psychology when you're trying to run a monastery. And if you don't think that even genuinely holy people who are in charge of groups think in such a Machiavellian fashion then I don't know what world you've been living in but it isn't this one. Include it in the official canon and a generation later every Daoist is convinced that he should be a vegan too.

 

Daoism is not Buddhism, and the changes made to Daoism to convert it into an organized religion/church during the Han dynasty were made for reasons of convenience, political necessity, and mass appeal, not because they were part of the original doctrine. Hopefully one day Daoism will purge itself of all of this and revert to its original, pre-Han-dynasty roots.

[Phi92]

Sorry. IMHO, no. Meat eating is natural for omnivores. Humans are omnivores. The fact that we can, with sufficiently careful supplementation, survive well even on a vegan diet doesn't change this. While it can be argued that "intensive farming" of meat is both cruel and unnatural, and I would agree, this doesn't change the fact that human consumption of meat is, in itself, natural. I would expect Daoists, of all people, to have respect for nature, including even its unpleasant aspects.

 

Today there are Daoist sects that practice vegetarianism. I believe that this came from two sources. First, borrowings from Buddhism. Second, necessity. Meat was very scare and expensive in China around the time of the Han dynasty. Newly formed Daoist monasteries would have had many mouths to feed, little ability to acquire meat. and no desire to listen to a large group of monks constantly complaining about the restricted diet. The simplest solution for the head monks would have been to make a virtue out of a necessity, and suddenly experience a divine revelation to the extent that true devotion to Daoism required that one become a vegan. Instant cost savings. No more complaints. And it gives the monks a relatively harmless form of hardship to experience as part of their devotions, which is generally good psychology when you're trying to run a monastery. And if you don't think that even genuinely holy people who are in charge of groups think in such a Machiavellian fashion then I don't know what world you've been living in but it isn't this one. Include it in the official canon and a generation later every Daoist is convinced that he should be a vegan too.

 

Daoism is not Buddhism, and the changes made to Daoism to convert it into an organized religion/church during the Han dynasty were made for reasons of convenience, political necessity, and mass appeal, not because they were part of the original doctrine. Hopefully one day Daoism will purge itself of all of this and revert to its original, pre-Han-dynasty roots.

 

That was a joke, I'm not a vegetarian because of Daoism, I've been vegetarian for 11 years now

 

I also think eating meat is fine, I'm just for ethical treatment of animals... and I don't like meat...

[skydog]

My interpretation of wuwei...

 

Heavenly energy moves all over

 

There is a "force" that will allow one to move spontaneously and "heal" themselves, after a while this can be spontaneous actions or life, and everything is a spontaneous movement.

 

Probably better to "practice" spontaneous movements until you no longer need to cultivate and just are

 

Also in regards to philosophy and logic, it does have its use, but at the same time it is often like a dog chasing its tail, every attempt to explain just takes one further from it, because of the nature of yin and yang.

 

Zen Buddhist practice circle drawing because it represents the whole. Whereas thoughts represent lines

[Wayfarer]

I see it less mystical and more practical. Using the natural and intuitive method to seek an answer or to do something.

 

I don't think the grenade example is good because it goes against the ideal of living in harmony with nature.

 

Wu Wei is, indeed, the most direct and elegant natural path to reach a goal.

 

I don't think giving up on plans and letting nature guide you is a good thing.

 

I just think those plans must be natural and follow the simplest and most effective way.

 

A sage would be someone who doesn't have to think too much to choose such a way.

 

It is intuitive and simple for him to decide. He is enlightened because he doesn't have to calculate for hours before making a course of action. The right, simple, natural and effective way comes to his mind instantly.

 

And by natural I mean: natural as in eco-friendly, natural as in intuitive and natural as in what fits you and is the true you.

 

That's how I see it anyway

 

It is because the Taoist sage is Awakened that there is no need for doing. How can there be a direct way to where you already are? There is neither direct nor indirect. Goals are of the ego, the 'self'. When a person is enlightened the self is seen through as delusion and subsequently the idea of achieving something or doing something to get somewhere, be someone, get more of something goes. You cannot add to that which cannot be added to. You cannot take away from that which cannot be reduced. So what reason is there to 'do'? Doing takes us away from Being. When our Nature is known we suddenly understand how to move through stillness, how to speak through silence, how to move and act without doing. While there are thoughts of doing and achieving our state of peace is placed on external matters and away from the present moment. For instance, "I want to be better at meditating" takes your mind to a future moment where you see yourself as being better - you are no longer experiencing the present because instead you are judging and comparing. The sage does not do this.

 

If you want clarity investigate this...you say "I don't think giving up on plans and letting nature guide you is a good thing." - what is it that thinks this? What "I" is giving up on anything? What is guiding what? What is a good thing? All these points arise from dualistic thinking - I, you, me, it, good, bad, giving up, not giving up. Try and say the same sentence without dualistic thoughts and you draw closer to the truth.

[shanlung]

If folks want to think of Wuwei and Ziran, focus then on the difference between those 2.

 

I am plagiarising on what I wrote earlier in this forum.

 

One is on one side of a Mobius strip and the other on the other side of the same Mobius strip.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[ChiDragon]

Here is a good source from:
A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy, Page 136

Non-action(Wu Wei) is not meant literally 'inactivity' but rather "taking no action that is contrary to Nature" - in other words, letting Nature take its own course.

By knowing this given definition,
We'll let the water free flow in the river;
Let the birds fly in the sky;
Let the people handle their own themselves.

Therefore, being natural(自然) is what Wu Wei(無為) is all about.

Edited February 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

But what constitutes the "nature of things" in an action?

 

For instance, strategic planning about how to achieve a goal, be it for learning or entrepreneurship or anything else?

 

It can be understood in terms of natural rhythm...when you can get to a point that you can feel your own chi, and let ot resonate with the chi of nature (yuan chi), you are in sync with the nature of things...the natural frequency of energetic vibration.

 

I will give you example of taiji chuan...when my teacher rolls hands with me and varies the vibration of his chi, if i want to stay in harmony, i have to raise my own chi vibrational frequency. Similarly when we connect with the vibrtional frequency of dao and resonate with it, all things will fall into place naturally...without forcing.

 

Then effort becomes effortless...we have learn to feel this first, then trust our instincts. Sometimes occam's razor doesnt work in these cases because occam's razor is predicated on intellect and intellect is artificial...because the rules are artificial...

 

 

[Mark Saltveit]

Re eating meat:

I was in Guangzhou one summer with some friends and went to the famous "Wild Animals Restaurant," (probably The First Village of Wild Food) where various exotic things are brought to your table. For example, bile ducts cut straight out of a live snake at your table for maximum potency/freshness.

 

I ordered dog, because hell I was 25 and you only live once and where am I going to get another chance to eat dog in a restaurant.

 

The waiter starts giggling, then turns and speaks in Cantonese to the entire (large) crowd, telling them that this idiot American just ordered dog, and they all start laughing. And he turns back to me and says, "You can't eat dog!! It's the summer! It's too hot!"

 

And I said, "I don't care, bring me cold cuts or something."

 

And he's just about to pee he's laughing so hard at this point, but he gathers himself and says, "NO, you stupid American. Inside hot! It's summer, This is very YANG! Have you ever heard of Yin and Yang? How can they be so ignorant!"

 

And so I had bitter melon (kugua or something like that) soup, which is awful and kind of numbs your mouth, but very yin apparently.

[dawei]

Re eating meat:

 

I ordered dog,

 

I have eaten my plenty share of dog in china... actually few Yang meats top my choice... On the first day of winter in the north, you can't get a seat in the dog restaurant. Ritual is sometimes driven by ideas about Yin and Yang.

[dawei]

It can be understood in terms of natural rhythm...when you can get to a point that you can feel your own chi, and let ot resonate with the chi of nature (yuan chi), you are in sync with the nature of things...the natural frequency of energetic vibration. I will give you example of taiji chuan...when my teacher rolls hands with me and varies the vibration of his chi, if i want to stay in harmony, i have to raise my own chi vibrational frequency. Similarly when we connect with the vibrtional frequency of dao and resonate with it, all things will fall into place naturally...without forcing. Then effort becomes effortless...we have learn to feel this first, then trust our instincts. Sometimes occam's razor doesnt work in these cases because occam's razor is predicated on intellect and intellect is artificial...because the rules are artificial...

 

I often want to say as such but not sure this is the normal experience or interest here... but nonetheless wanted you to know that there is another in agreement.

[Wayfarer]

Just a quick point regarding eating meat without wanting to change direction of the thread. We are not naturally meant to eat meat. To be able to do so we have to cook it so we can eat it or we would be ill. Our intestines are much longer than a carnivore's (3 or 4 times longer) and consequently the meat takes longer to pass through our system. Carnivores have a shorter intestinal system so that meat which is in a state of rotting can pass through quickly without causing disease. The acid in a carnivore's stomach is far stronger than that of ours so it can break down the nutrients in meat quickly before it passes through the intestines. Being weaker our acid struggles to breakdown meat and therefore deposits are left to rot in our gut and cause sickness. Our system is such that over time it breaks down the nutrients from plantlife affectively. No wild animal will eat cooked meat as they hunger for raw meat only, whereas generally people find eating raw meat repulsive.

 

If we were naturally meant to eat meat we would salivate when seeing an animal ripped apart, or seeing roadkill. Wild cats for instance, rip out the stomach area so they can benefit from eating the nutritious part of an animal but we would be physically sick to do that. And as for canine teeth, we don't have any. What we call canine are just pointed teeth like those found in gorillas and are often used for biting into tougher fruit or nuts.

 

Hope this helps

Edited February 15, 2013 by Wayfarer

[Marblehead]

Hope this helps

Naw. That didn't help much. Hehehe.

[shanlung]

Re eating meat:

I was in Guangzhou one summer with some friends and went to the famous "Wild Animals Restaurant," (probably The First Village of Wild Food) where various exotic things are brought to your table. For example, bile ducts cut straight out of a live snake at your table for maximum potency/freshness.

 

I ordered dog, because hell I was 25 and you only live once and where am I going to get another chance to eat dog in a restaurant.

 

I was with Siemens building the MRT in Guangzhou in 1995

 

The Germans were so nice to me taking me out to enjoy their delicacies when I periodically visitted them in Erlangen and Germany. When they came to Guangzhou, I had to take them out for dinners , especially as I was the only Expat who could speak Chinese and Cantonese. From puerile curiosity, the Germans will asked for the dog stew.

The first time I ordered that, I took only a very tiny piece. Every other week, a new batch of Germans would come. Prompted by earlier batches of Germans, they new Germans would order dog stew again, and each time, I took a bigger piece, and more pieces.

 

Think of the most delicious meat, the most tender meat, the most fragrant of meat. That would be the dog stew in Guangzhou. One sight that never would leave my mind was the sight of a local chinese seating at the nearby table with a chihuahua on his lap, and both of them enjoying the dog stew. In the end, even when Germans were not in town, I ordered that stew for my own.

 

In Guangzhou, and Taiwan, you only order the dog stew in winter.

 

Then the day came when I was working and living in South Korea on their High Speed Train.

 

I heard the Koreans also ate dog. I asked local Koreans to take me to their doggie restaurant. I was so shocked they agreed to do that next week as that was in August and in their summer. The Koreans replied to me that yes, they know of the ying and the yang of food, and dog is very yang and heaty. I told them in China, dog would only be taken in winter as the heat was required to combat the cold.

 

The Koreans told me they never would eat dog in winter. Dog only could be eaten in summer in Korea as they need the heat of the dog to combat the heat of the summer.

 

Same Ying and Yang. Only very different in the execution.

 

I went with them once and only once for the dog. Koreans pride themselves on purity and the dog was served raw. I got drunk on the liquor that I used to wash that dog down and to take the taste away. There were other very gruesome aspect that I do not care to write about as I do not want to conjure up those memories.

 

Idiotic Taoist.

Edited February 15, 2013 by shanlung

[三江源]

I often want to say as such but not sure this is the normal experience or interest here... but nonetheless wanted you to know that there is another in agreement.

Ok I will chime in with my agreement too, if not doing so suggests any lack of agreement. I had thought that

 

dwai articulated exactly what IS the experience and interest here... I wonder if I am wrong about that.

[dwai]

Ok I will chime in with my agreement too, if not doing so suggests any lack of agreement. I had thought that

 

dwai articulated exactly what IS the experience and interest here... I wonder if I am wrong about that.

 

An interesting exercise would be to poll how many bums believe chi is real energy and not some bio mechanical efficiency measure.

 

If bums in general are familiar with and work with chi I think a lot of arguments/debates would be moot. Albeit then the forums and community might not be as vibrant because we would agree with each other to a large extent, thereby eliminating the need for elaborate posts etc.

 

In retrospect maybe that's why the Taoist sub forum is less active than the buddhabum and general sub forums...

[Phi92]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there Yang qi, which is more ethereal and Yin qi, which is more physical?

[Reed]

An interesting exercise would be to poll how many bums believe chi is real energy and not some bio mechanical efficiency measure. If bums in general are familiar with and work with chi I think a lot of arguments/debates would be moot. Albeit then the forums and community might not be as vibrant because we would agree with each other to a large extent, thereby eliminating the need for elaborate posts etc. In retrospect maybe that's why the Taoist sub forum is less active than the buddhabum and general sub forums...

 

I was surprised to read this and the other comments this was part of. I assumed most people on here, like myself, believed that it was real.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Reed

[dawei]

Ok I will chime in with my agreement too, if not doing so suggests any lack of agreement. I had thought that

 

dwai articulated exactly what IS the experience and interest here... I wonder if I am wrong about that.

 

I was thinking:

It is one thing to center practice around energy... and quite another to center energy around life.

 

 

I was probably trying to imply that the former is the experience and interest here... but I read Dwai suggesting more of the latter.

An example to try and differentiate the two:

 

When one is NOT practicing... how much and how often are they interacting/experiencing/connecting with energy?

 

 

I may be wrong about that and/or what I implying...

Edited February 15, 2013 by dawei

[dwai]

 

I was thinking:

It is one thing to center practice around energy... and quite another to center energy around life.

 

 

I was probably trying to imply that the former is the experience and interest here... but I read Dwai suggesting more of the latter.

 

An example to try and differentiate the two:

 

When one is NOT practicing... how much and how often are they interacting/experiencing/connecting with energy?

 

 

I may be wrong about that and/or what I implying...

 

I was actually pointing to the poll as a means to ascertain what percentage of us here actually practice IMA and qi gong as true internal cultivation methods. Those who do can then naturally move towards modeling their lives with energy as a yardstick (for lack of a better statement). Those who don't will of course not model their lives with energy as a yardstick.

 

I don't of course mean this with anyone specifically in mind. But my experiences on various fora is that general tilt is towards externalizing the internal arts (no pun intended)....

 

Point is that those who have cultivated for an extended period of time naturally gravitate towards what Dawei indicated. At Least that's my understanding with my immediate circle of friends and practice partners...and of course my teacher.