Interpretations of Wu Wei?

[dwai]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there Yang qi, which is more ethereal and Yin qi, which is more physical?

Not sure I understand that. Yin and yang are opposites. One feels light and the other dense. But at the same time one feels full and another empty.

 

My limited experience has been that there never one or the other, they are always together. Too much of one ends up in the other...a constant dance so to speak.

 

For eg the Taichi form roll back, is considered yin but feels like emptiness that sucks in fullness of the practice partner's yang (say ward off)...

 

I can't think of labeling one as always one way or another (ie ethereal vs physical, etc)

[Mark Saltveit]

An interesting exercise would be to poll how many bums believe chi is real energy and not some bio mechanical efficiency measure.

 

I don't know what "bio mechanical efficiency measure" means. To me, qi and "nerves" and "energy" are all metaphors that have advantages and disadvantages for describing the actual reality of how the human body works.

 

It's important to avoid cultural biases in both directions. IMHO, the strength of qi as a metaphor is that it captures the essential dynamism of the body; Western medicine tends to be very static. There is this body part. You do things to it that might change it. Take a drug, do surgery. It's like comparing old school board games (say, Risk) to computer simulation games (such as Civilization V, or even Sim City). The latter capture the dynamism much better.

 

Experimental science demonstrates that acupuncture and acupressure work, but I don't think Western medicine has any metaphor that can explain why or how, while qi theory does. At the same time, there are many things that Western metaphors (and techniques) do that TCM can't explain.

[dwai]

 

I don't know what "bio mechanical efficiency measure" means. To me, qi and "nerves" and "energy" are all metaphors that have advantages and disadvantages for describing the actual reality of how the human body works.

 

It's important to avoid cultural biases in both directions. IMHO, the strength of qi as a metaphor is that it captures the essential dynamism of the body; Western medicine tends to be very static. There is this body part. You do things to it that might change it. Take a drug, do surgery. It's like comparing old school board games (say, Risk) to computer simulation games (such as Civilization V, or even Sim City). The latter capture the dynamism much better.

 

Experimental science demonstrates that acupuncture and acupressure work, but I don't think Western medicine has any metaphor that can explain why or how, while qi theory does. At the same time, there are many things that Western metaphors (and techniques) do that TCM can't explain.

 

Qi is not a metaphor. It is as real as heat, cold, electricity...

[Marblehead]

Qi is not a metaphor. It is as real as heat, cold, electricity...

I agree. I won't say much regarding this though as my understandings are personal and unsupportable.

[dwai]

I agree. I won't say much regarding this though as my understandings are personal and unsupportable.

If sufficient number of individuals have similar personal experiences and understanding then that constitutes empirical evidence

[dawei]

If sufficient number of individuals have similar personal experiences and understanding then that constitutes empirical evidence

 

I remember a flight sitting next to a lady reading a book about energy ideas and I asked her her thoughts on energy... she said she was more than curious and believed there was something to it but only read about it. I told her that she can feel it but she has simply not yet been able to experience it; and that I could show her how to feel it right now at even 33,000 feet.

 

I showed her how to move energy within her own hands and between her hands. Then showed her how she can feel the same energy but from my hands onto her hands. Then I told her to close her eyes and then tell me how where the energy I gave her was located... In that one moment, on a flight at 33,000 feet... she experienced energy in various ways. From within and from outside herself.

[Ya Mu]

dwai and dawei have brought up a very good point here. ( I sometimes get you two mixed up )

 

This thread's posts on wu wei interpretations points to the fact that the majority of perceived definitions of wu wei are from the philosophical and scholarly viewpoint. The posts reflecting internal cultivation and energetic awareness are much fewer.

Those who practice the internal Taoist teachings arrive at a different view of wu wei that is foreign to those who think qi is a metaphor as well as to those that believe in the concept of qi but don't actually practice methodology of internal arts.

 

To me, as a practitioner of the internal arts, I have to admit that before, a very long time ago, when I thought of myself as an educated Taoist because I "knew" I intellectually understood TTC and other Taoist teachings, and went around quoting such (ha ha no internet then), my view was almost identical to the viewpoint stated so much here. Living and dancing in wu wei, arrived at through the energetic practices, totally changed that view. IMO and IMPE the two views never converge until the practitioner is a practitioner instead of a thinker or philosopher.

[Taoistik stylez]

I think you have a great understanding of wu Wei. I believe that it is simply doing something without doing it or without trying to do it. Also, I think it would be wise for one to remember the balance of yin and yang and knowing the timing of when to advance and retreat. For knowing when to move and when not to I recommend the ICHING or book of changes in English. It is a little hard to follow but like anything else, with practice it can guide you through life's obstacles using wu Wei based on the yin and yang lines.

[Taoistik stylez]

dwai and dawei have brought up a very good point here. ( I sometimes get you two mixed up )

 

This thread's posts on wu wei interpretations points to the fact that the majority of perceived definitions of wu wei are from the philosophical and scholarly viewpoint. The posts reflecting internal cultivation and energetic awareness are much fewer.

Those who practice the internal Taoist teachings arrive at a different view of wu wei that is foreign to those who think qi is a metaphor as well as to those that believe in the concept of qi but don't actually practice methodology of internal arts.

 

To me, as a practitioner of the internal arts, I have to admit that before, a very long time ago, when I thought of myself as an educated Taoist because I "knew" I intellectually understood TTC and other Taoist teachings, and went around quoting such (ha ha no internet then), my view was almost identical to the viewpoint stated so much here. Living and dancing in wu wei, arrived at through the energetic practices, totally changed that view. IMO and IMPE the two views never converge until the practitioner is a practitioner instead of a thinker or philosopher.

[Taoistik stylez]

This is an excellent point you bring up about knowing taoism and believing in it. Wu Wei is an energy all of its own in my opinion. It is the potential energy that doesn't need be in action to be used. I also use to think I was so smart and cool cause I read the iching and Tao te Ching. It takes many years and dedication to really feel and understand Tao

[Marblehead]

It takes many years and dedication to really feel and understand Tao

A statement worthy of repeating.

[Mark Saltveit]

When I say that qi is a metaphor, and also that nerves are a metaphor, I mean that these are fingers pointing to the moon. Don't mistake the finger for the moon. qi is real and nerves are real; humans communicate largely through metaphor. The Western view does not have a monopoly on truth; neither does the Chinese.

 

Every metaphor has its limits and its implications that are often inaccurate or don't capture the entirety of what they depict.

[dwai]

When I say that qi is a metaphor, and also that nerves are a metaphor, I mean that these are fingers pointing to the moon. Don't mistake the finger for the moon. qi is real and nerves are real; humans communicate largely through metaphor. The Western view does not have a monopoly on truth; neither does the Chinese.

 

Every metaphor has its limits and its implications that are often inaccurate or don't capture the entirety of what they depict.

Perhaps instead of metaphor you meant "label?". Of course, labels don't have any value besides providing a way to communicate the meaning of something (or represent a concept, thing, etc)...But they do communicate about something very exact (for the most part).

 

If you did mean metaphor then my question would be - "metaphor for what?"

[Taoistik stylez]

Perhaps instead of metaphor you meant "label?". Of course, labels don't have any value besides providing a way to communicate the meaning of something (or represent a concept, thing, etc)...But they do communicate about something very exact (for the most part).

 

If you did mean metaphor then my question would be - "metaphor for what?"

[Taoistik stylez]

Tricky tricky.... You say that labels have no meaning other than communication. But that seems so harsh... While I do agree with your judge and jury of the word label, I also want to stress the importance of the human language. While taoism may be deep you wouldn't have even learned about it if it were not for labels... Remember the first verse of the Tao te Ching... That's my word

[dawei]

A statement worthy of repeating.

 

Yes, mainly due to a lack of understanding Tao.

 

I challenged one post about getting rid of distinction from the first step instead of later getting rid of distinctions. I was given logical reasons why it was not necessary to get rid of all distinctions, etc.... It is not about logical explanations, and years of dedication. This is an excuse for misunderstanding. This is an excuse for the status quo. When faced with some universal truth, you either embrace it or not. This is not a right or wrong issue but one of internally knowing. Internally knowing is beyond the physical feel-good philosophy.

[Mark Saltveit]

Perhaps instead of metaphor you meant "label?". Of course, labels don't have any value besides providing a way to communicate the meaning of something (or represent a concept, thing, etc)...But they do communicate about something very exact (for the most part).

 

If you did mean metaphor then my question would be - "metaphor for what?"

A metaphor for the phenomenon that it describes, that we can not capture with one name. I consider the difference between a metaphor and a label to be that, a label has no meaning of its own. You could replace it with any character or group of letters, it would make no difference. (In Chinese, this is harder than in English, since characters are similar to, or even composed of, other characters or fragments of characters that have a meaning already.)

 

Qi contains images of energy, flow, and water ("pooling"), for example, which are not present in Western conceptions. It is a fluid metaphor.

[dwai]

A metaphor for the phenomenon that it describes, that we can not capture with one name. I consider the difference between a metaphor and a label to be that, a label has no meaning of its own. You could replace it with any character or group of letters, it would make no difference. (In Chinese, this is harder than in English, since characters are similar to, or even composed of, other characters or fragments of characters that have a meaning already.)

 

Qi contains images of energy, flow, and water ("pooling"), for example, which are not present in Western conceptions. It is a fluid metaphor.

 

You mean like "electricity"?

[Mark Saltveit]

Maybe it's just me, but I think of electricity as very different than fluid, though it has a sort of (choppier) flow. I'd love to see water lightning though, I bet that would be cool.

[9th]

Is wu-wei the same thing as instinct? Is instinct the same thing as natural law?

 

Does harmony include noise? Does silence express harmony?

[Mark Saltveit]

No. No. sometimes. sometimes.

[9th]

That isnt very convincing! Why should I consider your answers to be valid in any way?

[Marblehead]

That isnt very convincing! Why should I consider your answers to be valid in any way?

Hehehe. Caused me a laugh. Mark supplied the best answers he could. Mine would likely have had been similar.

[Mark Saltveit]

That isnt very convincing! Why should I consider your answers to be valid in any way?

 

Cause they're true? :-)

 

Instinct is raw reaction. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes destructive (lashing out when our feelings are hurt) depending on how mature or developed we are. Wu-wei is much more subtle and trained. Sometimes I talk about well-honed instinct; you go from raw reaction, through training, discipline or practice of some kind for a long time. Eventually you react in a wu-wei-way, if done right, and it's as fast and automatic and unself-conscious as that original instinct, except you do the right thing.

 

Natural law ... with all these questions, it matters a great deal how you define these terms, what frame of reference you are in, etc. But if the question is, can these two things be said simplistically to be the same thing, then the answer is an easy "no."

 

harmony noise -- silence harmony -- again, meaning specifically what? But in some cases, clearly yes, so the answer is sometimes. Is that better?

Edited February 18, 2013 by Mark Saltveit

[9th]

it matters a great deal how you define these terms

 

there we go