Karma and Magic

[Cheshire Cat]

This thread is about Karma, but since Karma means "action" or cause & effect law... maybe I want to talk about one of the aspects of Karma.

 

It's some kind of "balancing force" that keep things in order. Everything is connected in some way and every tiny transformation influences the whole world: it's like taking a cup of water from the sea and causing the movements of hundreds of particles to "tap the hole".

 

In this way, by practicing magic we sometime experience unwanted outcomes: we cause unexpected movements.

 

For example, if one uses magic to win the lottery, he may win 1000 today ... but unexpectedly he will have to spend 1100 after few days for a car accident.

 

What do you think?

Do you have some methods to avoid those things? ...and win the lottery continuously

[Apech]

"Do what you will ...but pay the price" was the way one of my teachers adapted the famous Crowley motto.

 

I think it is important to recognise that karma or action-reaction works on all levels and is liable to come round and bite your backside. the only non-karma generating action would be to act through grace (or wu wei or buddha-activity). Otherwise if you do magic then you will experience repercussions. Its part of learning to do this.

[三江源]

"If it be for the good of all"

 

I thought was a good way to end spells, I thought it had me covered.

 

However!

 

Not everybody wants what is for their good.

 

ps that last line is a big understatement

[Protector]

I heard about some evil magicians who would do bad things and hold off the the karma until later and later until they just die of natural cause

Not looking forward to immortality hehehe

[Sanzon]

"If it be for the good of all"

 

Good point cat. I have held a position of caution with magic & ritual, thinking it would lead to entanglement in the fabric of creation if not done with clean intent (and lets face it, even non magical good intent by someone towards another can be seen as meddlesome interference by the other). I was given a grimoire for my 15th birthday, and with the wisdom held by an average everyday 15 year old, used it for less than honorable purposes, revenge, influencing women, etc. I certainly feared karma would bounce back at me, but more so, was never sure I freed myself of entanglements there.BTW I ended up in the healing profession.

 

I would love to hear more on this topic.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Sanzon

[Apech]

Isn't there a Wicca thing ..."if it harm none so mote it be" ... I think harmlessness is a good rule ... while not avoiding karma exactly it at least sets a better tone to the proceedings.

[Cheshire Cat]

There should be a way to use some sort of scapegoat... most of the fertility rites were based on that.

The catholic mass is based on a similar concept, etc...

[Birch]

Saw somewhere that Wicca also consider threefold consequences in return. In other words, even the smallest 'mote it be' could harbour a retro-whammy x3. Then there's that 'other people's free will' thing. And what if the 'love' spell you're up to is really about getting the love you never did from mom or dad, but you've decided that Annie Hall is going to be *the* person to do that for you and she 'mote' it be whether she wishes to or not?

 

I'm starting to think that magic has a lot of use as an art of 'staging' these sorts of issues and relationships so they can be brought to light. Lots of use of things (very big planets with regal associations) that remind you how small your role might be but not to forget yourself in the picture either.

 

-/-

[Sanzon]

It would be great to hear the perspective of a practitioner of magick on how their system might address some of the topics raised.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Sanzon

[thelerner]

Don't know about karma, but I think when a person of conscience does something selfish or against another they create something..maybe a thought pattern that stays around until it pays what it thinks is owed. Nothing supernatural just the play of conscious and subconscious. And I assume those with out conscience would be immune to such 'karmic' events.

[RiverSnake]

"INTENT" is the keyword here. What it is the intent behind your working. Balance and harmony both within and without should always be the focus of one's workings....IMO.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[三江源]

yes. It is very very very easy to mislead oneself that one knows what intent one is working with.

 

One assumes it is ones own, conscious intent, and would be very lucky to get away with it if that were all that was at work.

[C T]

Don't know about karma, but I think when a person of conscience does something selfish or against another they create something..maybe a thought pattern that stays around until it pays what it thinks is owed. Nothing supernatural just the play of conscious and subconscious. And I assume those with out conscience would be immune to such 'karmic' events.

The most detailed explanation given on 'kamma' i have read anywhere, by the Ven. Aggacitta Bhikkhu --

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/dietolive.pdf

[Maan]

Jason Miller writes in one of his books or lessons that your actions do not generate karma if your consciousness is raised to the level of the causal, i.e. if you are in a state of non dual awareness, when you perform them. This is based on buddhist theory, but whether it is really so I'm not sure as there are several things in buddhism that are completely at odds with information given through some of the best physical mediums.

[Seth Ananda]

For example, if one uses magic to win the lottery, he may win 1000 today ... but unexpectedly he will have to spend 1100 after few days for a car accident.

 

What do you think?

This is totally inconsistent with my experience of Magick.

 

While I have never won the lottery there have been a number of occasions where I have turned to Magick for financial aid and it has always worked.

I never have been aware of some karmic back lash {which doesn't mean it didn't happen} out side of working with demonic energies, when I have failed to make appropriate offerings. I don't see that as being karma as much as having a demon not be entirely happy with you.

 

The 'karma and Magick talk' is an interesting subject.

It often seems to come up among scared new agers, lofty mystics and christians, and more often than not seems to contain a set of rationalizations as to why they themselves are 'wise' or better off some how, for not doing Magick. I am not saying that is what is happening here, but it is something I have noticed quite often in the past.

 

Fair enough I suppose, but if I do a working to 'get' something, the only side effects I notice are a greater quality of life in a bunch of other directions as well, including that feeling of spiritual connection.

 

But I think you all know how I feel about Magick. I think it is the greatest pursuit on earth.

[Seth Ananda]

"If it be for the good of all"

Why? What about just for your good?

 

I am personally all for 'results Magick' for a better quality of life for me. Mind you I dont need it nearly as often any more which free's me up for deeper considerations.

 

My formula is when my life is shit it's hard for me to think about or have time for spiritual pursuits, so its time for results Magick. Me me me me!!!!

Then Magick helps set up what ever conditions I needed and I can enjoy 'loftier' pursuits.

We we we we....

[Seth Ananda]

Don't know about karma, but I think when a person of conscience does something selfish or against another they create something..maybe a thought pattern that stays around until it pays what it thinks is owed. Nothing supernatural just the play of conscious and subconscious. And I assume those with out conscience would be immune to such 'karmic' events.

I don't know about karma either. I believe in cause and effect, but am less sure about Karma.

 

In one of my worst abuses of Magick {a long time ago} via a demon, the only 'karmic' like effect I witnessed was the obvious result of 'becoming' the type of person who would stoop to do the things I did to people. I became a miserable and despicable abusive humanoid, till i realised just how rotten I was becoming.

On one level I am still ashamed of my actions there to this day, but on another level it was one of the greatest learning experiences i have had, and shame or not, I would not even consider not doing it again if I some how had to live it over.

 

But again, I tend to sit in the camp that says 'as long as you get to walk away from it, burning ones fingers is good!'

[idiot_stimpy]

I thought Karma was cause and effect?

 

Or the conditioning that directly results in the cause and then the effects.

[Seth Ananda]

I thought Karma was cause and effect?

 

Or the conditioning that directly results in the cause and then the effects.

Karma is often seen as a bit more sticky or metaphysical than that...

 

Cause and effect is, if I am rude to someone they might punch me in the face, or cease liking me and any other social ramifications.

Many views of karma see it as being deeper than that. It may bite you 10 years later or in some future life!

[rex]

This is more of a rhetorical question for private contemplation and conscience.

 

In times of clear and imminent danger when diplomacy and other peacful methods of conflict resolution have either been exhausted or simply not possible to engage in, what's the difference between using offensive magic and other methods of protection like martial arts?

 

Here's an interesting case:

 

http://www.inominandum.com/blog/field-report-attack-magic/

 

Check this out, Servilla curses Caesar and Atia