What defines a Daoist?

[Marblehead]

Less mysticism please.

Hehehe. I understand the frustration.

 

True, we cannot define "Tao". But we can define some of its characteristics by observing manifest reality and the processes that 'drive' the "ten thousand things".

 

Granted, the manifest is only one aspect of Tao but this is the only aspect we can observe using our human senses.

 

So we observe, understand the processes. This much we can say about Tao.

 

The Taoist is one who understands these processes and tries to live in accordance with these processes. This is because this is the "natural" way of things and living in such a manner requires the least amount of interference. We "go with the flow". (Unless we want the flow to go in a different direction.)

[Marblehead]

I just want to add to the post above:

 

I should have included stating that: Many (but not all) of these characteristics and prodesses are included in the Tao Te Ching and this is why the book is so important.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Marblehead

[shanlung]

 

Less mysticism please.

 

 

I hope you are not trying to make innuendo that I am a mystic, or even trying to be mystical.

Since you are so full of answers, even if you do not know the question, why not you give yourself an answer that you be happy with regardless of the question being asked.

 

That way you please yourself to your heart's content.

 

The Idiotic Taoist

[shanlung]

I found out just recently that no matter who eagerly one tries to get closer to the rainbow the rainbow will move away from that person at the same spped the person is trying to get closer to it. "Reached for but cannot be touched."

 

 

Easier to get to that pot of gold than to define the Tao, or to know what a Taoist is.

I never knew people can get so annoyed when they do not get the answer that they want.

 

The Taoistic Idiot

[Phi92]

I hope you are not trying to make innuendo that I am a mystic, or even trying to be mystical.

Since you are so full of answers, even if you do not know the question, why not you give yourself an answer that you be happy with regardless of the question being asked.

 

That way you please yourself to your heart's content.

 

The Idiotic Taoist

 

I wasn't trying to say that you are a mystic, I was trying to say that such an obscure answer isn't needed.

 

I never asked to define the Dao, I asked to define usual Daoist practices and behaviour.

 

I don't accept things I like, I just like the answers to be logical and coherent.

 

Also, please refrain from using such language. I never insulted you.

[Marblehead]

Easier to get to that pot of gold than to define the Tao, or to know what a Taoist is.

I never knew people can get so annoyed when they do not get the answer that they want.

 

The Taoistic Idiot

Yeah. That is part of the learning experience. When we don't get the answers we want we get frustrated. I've experienced this and still continue to do so on occasion.

 

But then, as I have recently mentioned elsewhere, as long as we keep talking there is a good chance of attaining an understanding.

[Phi92]

It's very easy to say "we can never understand the Tao", but that doesn't mean that we should stop trying.

 

Philosophy usually gives no absolute answers, but you don't give up.

 

Also, I don't see why one couldn't define the practices and beliefs that can get you closer to the Dao.

 

Like I said - such obscurantism is simply unnecessary.

[shanlung]

ok ok,

 

Relax.

I readily admit my flaws.

Part of which is to write tongue in cheek, or even with foot in mouth.

 

I look forward to wonderful and meaningful answers from all others.

And hopefully, find that pot of gold as well.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[Phi92]

ok ok,

 

Relax.

I readily admit my flaws.

Part of which is to write tongue in cheek, or even with foot in mouth.

 

I look forward to wonderful and meaningful answers from all others.

And hopefully, find that pot of gold as well.

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

Is "Taoistic idiot" an insult or your signature?

 

I also look forward to discussion and trying to understand and experience the Dao together.

 

Peace!

[shanlung]

Is "Taoistic idiot" an insult or your signature?

 

I also look forward to discussion and trying to understand and experience the Dao together.

 

Peace!

 

I have been using that to sign off even in the days of Bitnet, a long time before Internet.

I was away from this forum for a few months.

Here is my first posting in this forum. You can see that as part of my signature even then. Might shine more light on the way I write.

 

I am the Idiotic Taoist

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24749-i-am-the-idiotic-taoist/#entry358209

Edited February 11, 2013 by shanlung

[takaaki]

I wasn't trying to say that you are a mystic, I was trying to say that such an obscure answer isn't needed.

 

I never asked to define the Dao, I asked to define usual Daoist practices and behaviour.

 

I don't accept things I like, I just like the answers to be logical and coherent.

 

Also, please refrain from using such language. I never insulted you.

 

You seem upset by Shanlung's replies. This is a good opportunity for you to practise the Way of the Tao Te Ching.

 

1. Extinguish your rage before it grows stronger, it is easier to put out a small fire. (Chapter 64).

 

2. Developing the strength to control your rage is smarter than developing the force to control Shanglung. (Chapter 33).

 

Try it.

[Phi92]

Shanlung, while I respect your signature, I don't think it is just.

 

Calling your self idiotic isn't just

[shanlung]

Takaaki!

 

I just finished reading that debate on American Taoist largely between you and Marblehead!

I will look with interest to that continuation.

 

I am getting tongue tied here and at a loss how to answer Phi92 without stepping on toes as I do not desire to step on toes.

I have enough problem with my foot in my mouth. I have no intention to insult anyone.

 

Especially even if I am not a mystic, TTC to me is almost pure mysticsm.

Or at the least, the finger that point to the moon , bearing in mind one should never mistake the finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself.

 

I spend many years of my earlier life trying to rationalised the Tao in my attempt to understand the Tao.

I can only excuse that my earlier life was rather foolish.

 

And as said by me in my introduction, I was sitting on a deer (or ass, or Amercian Chevy) in search of the deer (or ass, or American Chevy)

 

At best I can say is that I seen the Tao in the corner of my eye mystically. But every time I looked at it directly, the Tao disappeared, or I just cannot find the words to nail down what I have seen.

 

Which is why I think hunting that pot of gold at the rainbow's end will give me good warmup exercise first.

Then I should try to articulate the sound of one hand clapping.

 

And then I will try again to define the Tao, by first defining the Taoist and then by mental jujitsu, remove the ist and therefore get to what I want to do in the first place which is to define the Tao.

 

Idiot on the Path

 

 

[takaaki]

Takaaki!

 

I just finished reading that debate on American Taoist largely between you and Marblehead!

I will look with interest to that continuation.

 

Why don't you join in the fray and say what you truly feel but not the words of one who kneels? I think you have much to contribute to the discussion. And I do look forward to your participation.

 

 

I am getting tongue tied here and at a loss how to answer Phi92 without stepping on toes as I do not desire to step on toes.

I have enough problem with my foot in my mouth. I have no intention to insult anyone.

 

Your well-meaning answers pack Tao power. It is too potent for newcomers to Tao Heaven. It is best you don't use full Chi force. Even a light shove from a Tao Master can break bones and rupture internal organs of the beginner.

Edited February 11, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

Hey Shanglung,

 

I withdraw my invitation to join in the fray. There will be no continuation of my debate with any forum member on any subject.

 

If you like to study the classical Chinese form of the Tao Te Ching in the 道家学说 forum, please join in. The tea will be on me.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 18, 2015 by 三江源

[shanlung]

Hey Shanglung,

 

I withdraw my invitation to join in the fray. There will be no continuation of my debate with any forum member on any subject.

 

If you like to study the classical Chinese form of the Tao Te Ching in the 道家学说 forum, please join in. The tea will be on me.

I find it sad the fray ended just as I visited that thread.

Perhaps I brought bad karma vapours with me and snuffed the life out of that thread.

Maybe for the better.

I was going to ask if Neo Taoism, Born Again Taoism, Evangelical Taoism and the likes be granted their own sub forums and threads.

 

Sadly my question died before I could even ask.

 

I applaud your study of the classical form of TTC.

 

I did study, or at least I attempted study of that a couple decades earlier.

A saying struck me since then.

 

"The man of intellect learns something every day. The man of Tao

unlearns something every day until he gets back to non-doing".

 

Which is right, and which is wrong?

I do not know.

 

And cat, Phil92,

 

I find it difficult to say what is NOT Taoist practise.

Eg the Zen in Zen Buddhism is Taoism. Can Zen practitioners be discounted because they do not do Taoism but Zen?

 

So to me, flower arrangement, drinking of tea (and coffee) can also be a form of Taoism.

Heck for that matter, chopping off of head and limbs is also Taoism when done and written by Mushahi in his 5 RIngs

 

A few months ago, there was even a movement here to denounce ChuangTse and remove him from Taoism because in his translated books, not a single mention was made of the Tao, and therefore he had nothing to do with Taoism.

 

When we consider an Immortal of Taoism, Liu Chang Sheng gained his final liberation by going and staying in a brothel, who are we to try to define the practise of the Tao?

 

Are folks in little villages in China worshipping the local dieties in tradition of 1000 years old less of a Taoist than

an self styled intellectual claiming to worship the Great Emptiness that he defined as the Tao notwithstanding Tao cannot be defined?

And making himself a self styled Fung Shui Master a greater Taoist charging $888 for a consultation?

I was dragged kicking and screaming to one such Fung Shui Convention just a week ago.

I need not have to pay that $888. But a promise was exacted from me not ask any question and to keep my mouth shut unless I was quaffing canapes served there with the champagne.

I am so easily bribed that I am ashamed of myself.

 

Are we that much better and qualified to decide? And to exclude?

 

I am unqualified to know and unqualified to decide.

 

You all will do the deciding.

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

 

 

 

Idiot on the Path

Edited February 12, 2013 by shanlung

[Phi92]

I understand.

 

I'm stricly against degrading rational and logical knowledge. I simply believe man must have both.

 

Also, I think non-action is possible without reducing rational knowledge.

I see the Dao De Jing as a very intellectual and rational book mixed with mysticism and intuition.

 

A perfect synthesis.

 

I also doubt Lao Zi would give up rational knowledge today if he were alive and if he saw all the merits of western philosophy and science.

 

It seems that almost always, a cooperation is the best choice.

[shanlung]

Phi92,

 

It is good to ask the question that you asked.

 

But just because a question is asked, that might not meant there can be an answer.

In some cases, it is better that there be no answer, which might perhaps be that very answer.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Marblehead]

"The man of intellect learns something every day. The man of Tao

unlearns something every day until he gets back to non-doing".

 

Which is right, and which is wrong?

I do not know.

 

I think that here we are talking about the difference between 'knowledge' and 'wisdom'.

 

I think this applies to phases of our life too. When we are young we gain all this knowledge, when we are middle age we filter this knowledge until all we have left is wisdom. (What good is knowledge if one doesn't have the wisdom to properly apply it?)

[Phi92]

I think that here we are talking about the difference between 'knowledge' and 'wisdom'.

 

I think this applies to phases of our life too. When we are young we gain all this knowledge, when we are middle age we filter this knowledge until all we have left is wisdom. (What good is knowledge if one doesn't have the wisdom to properly apply it?)

 

I see it as rational/logical/empirical/scientific knowledge "vs." intuitive/mystical/direct knowledge.

 

I think both are needed and none of it should be left unused. Both are capable of great truth.

[Stosh]

^{As precise and descriminating as terms may be.. they often refer to things and ideas ( forms) which have innate fogginess , grade into their opposite, or are just objectively uncertain specimens in themselves.}

^{Black grades into white through a situation called gray , but they are ultimately just relative points on a brightness scale.}

^{For the purposes of discussion folks can adopt a stance of 'suspended disbelief ' which simplifies the situation enough to have it point to conclusions and thereby help answer the ultimate question of What do I do Now?}

^{Knowing an individuals or group definition for Daoism may point a direction to follow for a person who is uncertain ...at a later time a person may reach a state of comfort with the factoids and retain a sense of the direction they should follow.}

[Mark Saltveit]

Phi92: Maybe this will help. Livia Kohn, an eminent American scholar of Daoism, identifies 3 main approaches to Daoism:

1) the literati approach (some might say philosophical, intellectual) 2) the communal (ie involvment in organized sects, such as the Zhengyi or Quanzhen, which might be hard to find in Croatia); and 3) self-cultivation, pursuing inner alchemy of various sorts, which seems to be most popular here at Tao Bums. Qigong, Taijiquan, Neidan, neigong, the NeiYe, etc. are all part of that third branch but are not universally accepted.

 

Prof. Kohn also makes the important point that nearly every Daoist practices some mix of these three, emphasizing different aspects, but rarely a pure strain of just one.

 

The one thing common to all traditions are the two foundational books, the Daodejing (Tao Te Ching) and Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu). Meditation is also pretty universal. So these are good places to start. Then see what resonates for you.

 

On the philosophical approach, I would argue that Daoism can be seen as a compelling argument for epistemological humility. In the first line, the DDJ tells us that we can't pin down the precise Dao (the right Way to be, or Way the universe works, or if you prefer ultimate reality) in words and concepts. Everything else follows inevitably from that truth (assertion).

 

You can avoid religious practices and later add-ons such as semen conservation, thankfully, but from the first sentence you should know that logic will not be sufficient. If you can't accept that, then Daoism is not for you.

[Marblehead]

I see it as rational/logical/empirical/scientific knowledge "vs." intuitive/mystical/direct knowledge.

 

I think both are needed and none of it should be left unused. Both are capable of great truth.

Yeah, but I don't talk much about the part I bolded as those aspects are very hard to point a finger at.

[Phi92]

Phi92: Maybe this will help. Livia Kohn, an eminent American scholar of Daoism, identifies 3 main approaches to Daoism:

1) the literati approach (some might say philosophical, intellectual) 2) the communal (ie involvment in organized sects, such as the Zhengyi or Quanzhen, which might be hard to find in Croatia); and 3) self-cultivation, pursuing inner alchemy of various sorts, which seems to be most popular here at Tao Bums. Qigong, Taijiquan, Neidan, neigong, the NeiYe, etc. are all part of that third branch but are not universally accepted.

 

Prof. Kohn also makes the important point that nearly every Daoist practices some mix of these three, emphasizing different aspects, but rarely a pure strain of just one.

 

The one thing common to all traditions are the two foundational books, the Daodejing (Tao Te Ching) and Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu). Meditation is also pretty universal. So these are good places to start. Then see what resonates for you.

 

On the philosophical approach, I would argue that Daoism can be seen as a compelling argument for epistemological humility. In the first line, the DDJ tells us that we can't pin down the precise Dao (the right Way to be, or Way the universe works, or if you prefer ultimate reality) in words and concepts. Everything else follows inevitably from that truth (assertion).

 

You can avoid religious practices and later add-ons such as semen conservation, thankfully, but from the first sentence you should know that logic will not be sufficient. If you can't accept that, then Daoism is not for you.

 

Thank you, this is a very clever and succint answer!

 

I am the first and third definition, as I study Daoism intellectually and logically and try to compare it with other philosophies, have my own view of it and description, but I also practice meditation and martial arts, try to incorporate the concepts in every day life and decision making and achieve the Dao through practices which some would call "mystical."

 

I also do not worship Daoist deities as beings, but as philosophical concepts, ideals and role models. I see only Lao Zi and perhaps the Eight Immortals as people/saints/xian worth respecting.

 

I also don't think that logic is sufficient in some points, although I love it and think it's one of the most useful tools of our reason, but I also think that mystical, intuitional knowledge and experience has value too. I'm all for cooperation so that we can have the widest and most true image of reality analysed from all angles and concepts.