What defines a Daoist?

[Taomeow]

@ Mark (and Livia Kohn):

 

To break it down into three scholarly identifications is "taoist research," which is a meta-taoist pursuit, not a taoist one. Traditionally, a taoist is someone who does all three. And then some.

 

I am a traditionalist, I seek to understand what a taoist was to taoists before "researchers" and "experts" (in other words, outsiders) and abide by that, to the extent I manage. From this perspective, I submit there's never been three branches -- taoism is integration, not fragmentation, of body-mind-spirit. The mind contemplates the philosophy of taoism or takes a wuwei break from contemplating anything; the body does qigong, taiji, takes in foods and herbs selected from the taoist perspective; the spirit guides the life, the actions, the choices of a taoist in every situation arising daily, and is guided by the tradition, by the immortals and deities of a lineage, by the teacher and master, by the inner voice of destiny, the voice of yin zhi, the voice of yi, the voices of nature, the voice of ganying, the voices of traditional taoist divination, the voice of tao... And so on.

 

The only reason a "taoist" is hard to define is that anything that is not fragmented, not partial, is hard to define. Define an "egg?" A "universe?" A "taoist" is, ideally, as whole as that and therefore as difficult to pinpoint. It's much easier to tell what a taoist is not. A taoist is not a fragment. ANY fragment that does not encompass the whole, that leaves something out -- e.g. the body and its skill and its quest for healthy balance, or the intellectual mind and its skill and its quest for comprehension and its thrills of a discovery, a breakthrough, a creative idea, or the innate sense of beauty and tranquillity pitched against an equally innate sense of disharmony and struggle --

whatever leaves any of these things out defines what a taoist is not.

[Phi92]

I have no problem with western Daoism or any other modification of it. I believe all thoughts should be analysed and experienced. The Dao is not Chinese and Daoism as a philosophy isn't Chinese. It exists for everyone, so I approve when people interpret it how they like it.

 

However, I do agree that a Daoist is an integration of mind-body-spirit. One should train all of those, by reading books, doing sports, meditating, contemplating, whatever. I don't think Chinese internal martial arts are the only things good for doing that.

 

In fact, someone here said that all actions can be Daoist as it is not the action itself, but the practitioner and his/her view.

 

Your description is very spot on, if you ask me

[dwai]

Hello everyone!

 

My question is - what concepts does one need to accept to call himself a Daoist?

 

My answer would be simply - "The Dao produced One, One produced Two, Two produced Three, Three produced ten thousand things."

 

My understanding is that that metaphor denotes periods of creation in the Universe.

 

Dao = Primordial being

One = Existence

Two = Yin, Yang

Three = Yin, Yang and Qi, however, this is disputed

Ten thousand things = Everything that is

 

Am I right or wrong?

 

So accepting those basic concepts: Dao, Yin-Yang, Qi and perhaps the Three Virtues (compassion, humility, moderation), one can call himself a Daoist.

 

There is also the difference between philosophical and religious Daoism, which sounds like a Western misconception.

 

I believe every Daoist is partially both religious/spiritual and philosophical.

 

I sincerely doubt that Daoists agree with everything Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi or Lie Yukou said.

 

What are your thoughts? How would you define the basic concepts of Daoism and how would you define a Daoist?

 

Thanks in advance!

A late response but in my humble opinion, a Daoist is one who can sense the rhythm of Dao and stays in harmony with it. Sometimes he might be viewed as bad, sometimes as good, usually as useless.

 

He doesn't answer to anyone, nor does he ask any questions. He is truly free...to roll with the Dao.

 

(Vague enough ? )

[Phi92]

A late response but in my humble opinion, a Daoist is one who can sense the rhythm of Dao and stays in harmony with it. Sometimes he might be viewed as bad, sometimes as good, usually as useless.

 

He doesn't answer to anyone, nor does he ask any questions. He is truly free...to roll with the Dao.

 

(Vague enough ? )

 

Maybe too vague ^^'

 

I guess everyone see's it as they want it. And that's a good thing, a philosophy, religion, spiritual path, whatever should be personal

 

I'm very happy to see what you all have to say and to discuss your opinions!

[Cat Pillar]

I'm of the ilk that doesn't much care for labels, but if I had to put down a label for some reason, I would call myself a "Taoist" because it's the closest match among all the many labels out there.

 

I practice Taoist internal alchemy and am learning Taoist medical qigong applications. I've read the TTC, but not all of the Zhuangzi...most of my studying is around the concepts of alchemy and energy work. But I've studied some Advaita and a tiny bit of Buddhism as well, and have found things in both paradigms that have been helpful to me.

 

I spent a long time trying the intellectual approach, and it didn't work very well for me. But, I do think studying is important, because it helps with trying to communicate things for which there aren't many common frames of reference.

 

If one had to categorize important concepts for a Taoist to "accept," I would say Wu Wei deserves much consideration.

[RiverSnake]

“The Sufi way is through knowledge and practice, not through intellect and talk.”

 

--Idries Shah, Sufi Thought and Action

Edited February 13, 2013 by OldGreen

[Stigweard]

What defines a Daoist? Hmmm ... it would have to be the quality of their tea methinks ...

 

[Phi92]

What defines a Daoist? Hmmm ... it would have to be the quality of their tea methinks ...

 

 

I love tea... Lungching most

[shanlung]

What defines a Daoist? Hmmm ... it would have to be the quality of their tea methinks ...

 

 

How can you say about quality of tea when you do not have the sniffer bowls above the tea cup.

Good tea must be appreciated together with the aroma, and sniffer bowls must be present for that.

 

Unless your tea is meant for peasant. In which case I qualify cum laude.

I even happily wrote about my

Being a peasant

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/135250.html

 

 

 

Idiotic Taoist.

[Bubbles]

Daoists may be busy cultivating instead of indulging into chatter.

 

edited for spelling

Edited February 13, 2013 by bubbles

[Stosh]

Or they may be happily chattering instead of indulging in 'cultivation'.

[Phi92]

Or maybe some see chatter and thinking as a form of cultivation

[Bubbles]

Or they may be happily chattering instead of indulging in 'cultivation'.

 

 

Or maybe some see chatter and thinking as a form of cultivation

 

The above perfectly describes TTB: chattering about cultivation seeing as a form of cultivation. We all end with over developped thoughts about cultivation.

Talk doesn't cook the rice, right?

[Phi92]

The above perfectly describes TTB: chattering about cultivation seeing as a form of cultivation. We all end with over developped thoughts about cultivation.

Talk doesn't cook the rice, right?

 

So you are suggesting discussion and philosophy is useless?

 

I meditated ten minutes ago haha, I prefer to do both - thinking and non-action

[Basher]

Taoists (aka Daoists) must always be seen "out" wearing a T-Shirt emblazoned with the Legend "I am a Taoist".

If they own a Car or a Bike, it must have a Yin-Yang or Tai Ji symbol somewhere on it.

They should also give their offspring "Taoist" names, just to emphasise the point that they are Taoists, to others.

Finally, if anyone else disagrees that you're a serene, calm, peace loving, easy going, nature loving Taoist.

Then you should smack them in the mouth !!!

 

Basher

[Phi92]

Taoists (aka Daoists) must always be seen "out" wearing a T-Shirt emblazoned with the Legend "I am a Taoist".

If they own a Car or a Bike, it must have a Yin-Yang or Tai Ji symbol somewhere on it.

They should also give their offspring "Taoist" names, just to emphasise the point that they are Taoists, to others.

Finally, if anyone else disagrees that you're a serene, calm, peace loving, easy going, nature loving Taoist.

Then you should smack them in the mouth !!!

 

Basher

 

Sounds like most christians...

 

(No offense to anyone)

[thinker]

Finally, if anyone else disagrees that you're a serene, calm, peace loving, easy going, nature loving Taoist. Then you should smack them in the mouth !!!

 

Agreed.

 

I know that you intended this as humor, but it actually hits on a very important aspect of Daoism. A lot of the DDJ seems to have been written as an anti-Confucian sociopolitical manifesto, in response to how the Confucian government of the day was mismanaging things, and hurting a lot of people in the process. I see little in it to suggest that the author(s) would have rejected the idea of smacking some heads to make things better, if that could have been made to work. The rampant pacifism that we see today in Daoism seems to have come from a number of sources, including early borrowings from Buddhism, later pressures from a Chinese government that won't tolerate the presence of any organization that it sees as a potential political threat, and deliberate spin from the Western "New Age" movement, which is determinedly pacifistic and has been insinuating itself into Daoism in the West for many years. I believe that many people who consider themselves to be Daoist today are really misplaced Buddhists (a genuinely pacifistic religion), or at least would be happier in one of the syncretic religious traditions that explicitly combines elements of Buddhism and Taoism. Unfortunately, contemporary Daoism has drifted so far from its classical (roughly pre-200 AD) roots that it seems to have become such a syncretism itself. it would be nice to see a new offshoot of Daoism form; one that rejected the post-Classical elements of the Daoist cannon (which is most of it) and returned to a more originalist view, but I can't see that happening any time soon. The Chinese government certainly wouldn't allow it, and I suspect that other authoritarian Asian governments would probably react similarly. Daoism in the West is not heading in this direction, and even if it were, it still lacks the organization and the strength to create such a movement.

[Bubbles]

So you are suggesting discussion and philosophy is useless?

 

 

Even under screenames, people can't help bringing themselves and their level of cultivation to TTB. So just have a look at threads lists and content on the General and Taoist discussion subforums. And bear in mind that a significant part of the Off topic discussions were initiated into the General discussion subforum.

 

Among them, how many threads are actually practice-realization oriented? You will see a lot of people arguing, insulting each other in obvious or disguised ways, coming here with either political or ideological agendas or just exchanging about topics unrelated to cultivation as a practice etc.. I have nothing against chattering because chattering is necessary part of human communication and sociability and TTB is a virtual community. Chattering is psychologically comforting and helps bonding people with each other, but if chattering makes people better cultivators my neighbor who spends quite a lot of time at the local pub is a master in its own right. As far as cultivation is concerned it makes no difference whatsoever if you chatter about cultivation instead of the carelessness of the government or how the local sports team did last Sunday.

 

Philosophy is just a higher form of chattering. It can be an even more vicious delusion because people wraps themselves into scholarship and intellectual truths believing they attained something. Having a PhD in whatever-ism ( Daoism, 14^th century monasticism, blahblah-ism) can help you finding a job in a university but it won’t make you a spiritual person.

 

There are true cultivators at TTB (I am not one of them) and you will rarely see them engaging in the usual forms of mind-masturbation or conflicting relations you will see here.

My 2 cts

 

edited to underline some words

Edited February 13, 2013 by bubbles

[Phi92]

We simply disagree then. I don't think philosophy or communication is useless and people should try to understand and conceptualize, rationalize.

 

Practice is important, yes, but you seem to make the false dichotomy practice-thinking. I think one should do both. Lao Zi did both.

 

The Dao and concepts related to it should be analysed and thought through like any philosophical theory.

 

Practice is also good, but I don't see why you have to choose one.

 

Having a great understanding of philosophy can only help you practice and understand it better.

 

For me, both are needed.

 

Some think practice is more important, some think philosophy is more important.

 

I think one should incorporate both in their life and I don't think it's good to just practice and be silent.

[Bubbles]

It's not about to just practice and be silent, it is about practicing and talk from there.

[Marblehead]

A thought:

 

I stayed up until 3:30 this morning watching TV. I didn't learn a single thing. But I was entertained.

 

Sure, I speak mostly of philosophy here at TTB. But that is only a small portion of my life.

 

Who said it? Variety is the spice of life.

[Phi92]

It's not about to just practice and be silent, it is about practicing and talk from there.

 

What makes you think I don't talk from practice?

 

Everything I mentioned is how I see it and experience it and how I incorporate it in my own life.

[Bubbles]

A thought:

 

I stayed up until 3:30 this morning watching TV. I didn't learn a single thing. But I was entertained.

 

Sure, I speak mostly of philosophy here at TTB. But that is only a small portion of my life.

 

Who said it? Variety is the spice of life.

 

Come on Marblehead, although I don't know you, I venture to say that you have lived enough and had your share of hardship so that your words are weighted with what only life can teach to someone spiritually oriented.

I consider you as among the wises here.

[Bubbles]

What makes you think I don't talk from practice?

 

Did I wrote this? I don't think so. I am only saying that intellectualizing the definition of a Daoist has nothing to do with being a Daoist. If you say you are one, I am fine with it, and at some point I envy you.

[Marblehead]

Come on Marblehead, although I don't know you, I venture to say that you have lived enough and had your share of hardship so that your words are weighted with what only life can teach to someone spiritually oriented.

I consider you as among the wises here.

Hehehe. I don't know about the wise part but yes, I have had my experiences. I have lived. (No, I'm not ready to stop doing that yet.)

 

And yes, You know me well enough to have made the above statements.