What defines a Daoist?

[Phi92]

I have problem with what is in red. How did you come to this conclusion.....???

 

That's what Shanlung said, ask him

[Taomeow]

Then again, ch. 47 of the DDJ (Mair translation):

"Without going outdoors, one may know all under heaven.

...

The farther one goes, the less one knows.

...

The sage knows without journeying."

 

Distance can be cultural and temporal, too. I think many Westerners exoticize China and its trappings and cultural products, both ancient and modern. It is easier to find Dao in what you know. Zhuangzi did not portray seekers who traveled to Tibet to retrieve Laozi's teachings; it was Butcher Ding in the basement, and the wheelwright, who found Dao in the "practice" of their work.

 

China is a very confused country, a rapidly industrializing and increasingly rich third world country with incredibly bad pollution, severe corruption and nepotism, and rampant materialism. I hope you don't expect to find the idyllic scenes in the pictures above and wise Daoist sages all around. They are part of China today the same way that cowboy gunslingers and Indian peace pipes are part of America today.

 

Every country is a very confused country. (I've traveled quite a bit, both physically and mentally, both in the present times and the past.) China today is as taoist as the USA is constitutional (meaning not at all), but does it mean we should abandon taoist ideals or constitutional rights, on the basis of neither being practiced by the governments of these countries and by their obedient (or confused, struggling, disenfranchised, brainwashed, etc.) serfs?..

 

I think it is useful to remember that "in the human world, tao has been destroyed," according to Laozi (the wisest words he ever repeated after his tao-observant predecessors), and both denying this and emulating this is another definition of what a taoist does not participate in.

[dwai]

I cliked that I like this post. I do, except what I bolded. Hehehe.

 

Master Liao (waysun) is often quoted as saying "no enemy, no self" - I interpret that as "no self and no other" such that when in sync with dao all boundaries disappear. Perhaps it's the nondualist in me that sees it this way...

[dawei]

Master Liao (waysun) is often quoted as saying "no enemy, no self" - I interpret that as "no self and no other" such that when in sync with dao all boundaries disappear. Perhaps it's the nondualist in me that sees it this way...

 

No enemy, no self; no self, no other; no other, no ten thousand things; no ten thousand things, no Dao...

 

I think this is where naturalism meets pragmatism meets the metaphysical meets the supernatural... yet without any boundary.

[Marblehead]

Master Liao (waysun) is often quoted as saying "no enemy, no self" - I interpret that as "no self and no other" such that when in sync with dao all boundaries disappear. Perhaps it's the nondualist in me that sees it this way...

Yeah. No saying right or wrong. Just saying that I find it very difficult to avoid duality. In fact, about the only time I get there is during meditation. In duality there is 'self' and 'other'.

[Marblehead]

I think this is where naturalism meets pragmatism meets the metaphysical meets the supernatural... yet without any boundary.

So many meetings and I wasn't told of any of them. Hehehe. Sorry.

 

Yes, that would be a really nice state to be in. Can't say I have ever been there.

[shanlung]

Ah ... a true man of culture !!!

 

Let me share as well... from my China trip in 2009:

 

Winter is a very cold time to visit China.

Might be better now, but in the 1995 to 1999 when I was roaming about in China from my base in Hongkong, hotel rooms were about 25-45 RMB. Some places even cheaper in places where 'gui bu par shang lai, neiou bu sheng dan ' (turtle do not climb up and birds do not lay eggs)No central heating of course, unless you consider hot water in thermos flask as heating.

 

Totally different culture where often I was the only tourist in town. I did not even look like a tourist as I dressed like a local Chinese, going about with my travelling companion, a mainland Chinese I engaged to help me read Chinese. The sad part was that she was brought up in the JianTiTse, or simplified Chinese and the Fang Ti Tse (classical full chinese) was used to write the stone steles. I felt so embarrased and sorry for her that Japanese tourists alongside of us could read the classical FangTiTse chinese better than her. I could read less well then the Japanese, but even I could read the old steles better than her.

 

I considered the JianTiTse to be Chinese with the heart ripped out, a sad bastardised pidgin form of Chinese, perhaps done to separate Chinese in Mainland China from their roots, largely written in FanTiTse used in ancient books and steles, and in Taiwan and Hongkong, and by Chinese not under the direct rule of Beijing.

 

I do not have the photos I taken of Emei Shan , Wudang Shan and many other parts of China. The photos I most regret no longer having are the photos taken in ChingCheng Shan. I went to CCS at a time when no tourists went there. Taoist monks were at every nook and corner. As said, those jpgs in my hard disk died after a ghostly hand squeezed the life out of it.

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html

 

I told myself then to be back at CCS again just for CCS. But never got to do that before I was called back into the world.

 

Phi92,

 

Chidragon , that I called the HotAirWorm, cannot ask me anything as I chucked him into my ignore bin. I rather talk with you and folks like you then with HAW. I found his pretended knowledge of Chinese is nauseating. Especially his acting as if he knew taijichuan on the basis he could read chinese.

 

I know there are folks with far better command of Chinese than me. Those are the people who are very well versed in Wen Yen Wen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese

the pure poetic classical form of Chinese as against the run of the mill folks like me in Bai Hwa Wen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_vernacular_Chinese

 

You can always recognised folks very good in Wen Yen Wen. I have so many friends very good in Wen Yen Wen.

The Chinese used by them are just too beautiful.

 

But the English that they write are just horrible, convulated and atrocious. HAW English is very much like yours and mine.

 

Now, just think of the knowledge and power of Wang Chong Yang of the Quanzhen school. Did his reknowned 7 disciples remained in that school? Each of them set up a different school.

• Ma Yu (馬鈺): Yuxian lineage (Meeting the Immortals, 遇仙派)
• Tan Chuduan (譚處端): Nanwu lineage (Southern Void, 南无派)
• Liu Chuxuan (劉處玄): Suishan lineage (Mount Sui, 随山派)
• Qiu Chuji (丘處機): Longmen lineage (Dragon Gate Taoism, 龙门派)
• Wang Chuyi (王處一): Yushan lineage (Mount Yu, 崳山派)
• Hao Datong (郝大通): Huashan lineage (Mount Hua, 华山派)
• Sun Bu'er (孫不二): Qingjing lineage (Purity and Tranquility Sect, 清静派)

Liu found his final path to Immortality in a brothel. Funded by picking up stones and turning them into gold.

Another found his final path to Immortality in digging caves in mountain for meditating Taoist hermits. Yet another found it by ferrying folks across river on his back.

 

Qiu who impressed Genghis Khan so much was said to be the weakest and the least empowered of the 7.

 

If Wang had 100 disciples, those disciples might well have 101 schools.

 

And said so well ,

It is easier to find Dao in what you know. Zhuangzi did not portray seekers who traveled to Tibet to retrieve Laozi's teachings; it was Butcher Ding in the basement, and the wheelwright, who found Dao in the "practice" of their work.

 

It will be a very pathetic Tao if there is one and only one way to go to the Tao.

It will be a very pathetic Tao if the Tao is found only in some far mountains or valley in China.

Where the Tao is everywhere, show me a place where the Tao cannot be found.

 

 

Idiot on the Path

Edited February 15, 2013 by shanlung

[Marblehead]

 

Where the Tao is everywhere, show me a place where the Tao cannot be found.

 

 

Idiot on the Path

And that is why there can be such a thing as an American Taoist.

[shanlung]

And that is why there can be such a thing as an American Taoist.

 

And Yoda in a galaxy far far away is a Galactic Taoist.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[Marblehead]

And Yoda in a galaxy far far away is a Galactic Taoist.

 

Taoistic Idiot

Yes. (But I still have my doubts about that one. Hehehe.)

[Mark Saltveit]

Every country is a very confused country.

 

I agree, completely, though I haven't given up on the US Constitution. My point is, let's not fetishize China as some ideal place. (No risk of anyone around here fetishizing the US, it wears its flaws on its sleeve.)

 

 

I think it is useful to remember that "in the human world, tao has been destroyed," according to Laozi (the wisest words he ever repeated after his tao-observant predecessors), and both denying this and emulating this is another definition of what a taoist does not participate in.

I'm not sure I follow. Which chapter is this in?

 

It will be a very pathetic Tao if the Tao is found only in some far mountains or valley in China.

Where the Tao is everywhere, show me a place where the Tao cannot be found.

 

Absolutely. If Tao can only be found in China, then it's not universal, not true. Just a curious local bit of culture, like curvy roofs. I like to think it's more than that.

 

BTW, I like your signoff, Taoist Idiot, but I think Phi92 misread it as an insult. The wrongness of that, if you had really meant it that way, cracks me up. As if you said "Wu wei does not mean 'not acting', you Taoist idiot!"

 

Taoist pun: "Dude, you're trying wei too hard."

[Taoistik stylez]

Wow! What an interesting topic. I love reading what other people's views of Taoism is. I don't really think you can label a Taoist because the first verse in the Tao te Ching says that true Tao cannot be defined. Taoism is just something you either get or you don't. I will say that in simple lamens a Taoist must be one with nature and did themselves of the ego. Personally I like to refer to the "password" prayer for the three treasures which is wu tai fo me la.

[thinker]

Taoist pun: "Dude, you're trying wei too hard."

 

OK. That one's going into my permanent memory store.

[thinker]

Interesting analysis. What would be "a more originalist view" ?

 

I'm sure there would be many different opinions about that. I would start by identifying and removing those elements that were added during the late Han dynasty as part of the effort to convert Daoism into a structured religious movement. Of course, given the vagueness of the history, accurately identifying those elements would be a non-trivial task. As one example, my excruciatingly limited reading on the subject suggests that most, if not all, of the Daoist pantheon was added around that time in an attempt to popularize Daoism. That is, if the newly formed Daoism was to bring in the bacon (tithes, social/political influence, etc...) then it had to bring in the masses. This meant getting the masses into the temples.

 

The target demographic practiced their version of what we now refer to as "Chinese folk religion", which included the non-church-based worship of a large number of deities, with different groups of people worshiping different deities. It seems that, in order to bring them in, the Daoists of the day simply declared that Daoism now included the worship of said deities, and if you want to worship them properly then you'd better come to the temples where all the fancy new statues are and do it right. Repeat the message long enough and sooner or later people will begin to believe it. Instant flock.

 

If this is the case then a good first move to returning Daoism to its roots would be to delete the entire Daoist pantheon and all observances and rituals associated with them. I've also got my suspicions about both celibacy and vegetarianism, and others have posted elsewhere to the effect that practices like martial arts, Feng Shui, and the like are all add-ons made centuries and even millennia later. If this is the case then dump them all.

 

[kaaazuo]

If this is the case then a good first move to returning Daoism to its roots would be to delete the entire Daoist pantheon and all observances and rituals associated with them. I've also got my suspicions about both celibacy and vegetarianism, and others have posted elsewhere to the effect that practices like martial arts, Feng Shui, and the like are all add-ons made centuries and even millennia later. If this is the case then dump them all.

 

Any possibility of you speaking from cultural prejudice? It would depend on how you define your own term "originalist view".

 

What about my question on the point you raised about "organization" and "movement"?

[thinker]

Any possibility of you speaking from cultural prejudice? It would depend on how you define your own term "originalist view".

 

What about my question on the point you raised about "organization" and "movement"?

 

There's always a chance that I speak from cultural prejudice. I doubt that there have been many utterances made throughout human history for which this isn't the case. As far as any personal definition of mine of the term "originalist view" affecting my suggestions, I'm sure they do. That's why I included such statements as:

 

"I would start by identifying...", and

 

"Of course, given the vagueness of the history, accurately identifying those elements would be a non-trivial task.", and

 

"...my excruciatingly limited reading on the subject suggests that...",

 

to convey the points that such elements have not been identified yet, that my suggestions are tentative, and that any real progress in this direction would require a lengthy period of study by genuinely knowledgeable people to determine which elements were adopted into Daoism at what times and for what reasons. Nevertheless, I don't find any support in the few earlier works that I've read, such as the DDJ or the Zhuangzi, for the inclusion of specific Chinese deities into Daoism, nor do I see that their presence in any way enhances the tradition. What value I've found in Daoism so far seems to come from the earlier works. Mind you, I have no problem with considering contemporary mainstream Daoism legitimate, and if people get something out of the elements that were added later than I'm happy for them. I simply lament the loss of what seems to me the earlier form, and would like to see it come into existence once again as another sect.

 

As far as my use of the words "organization" and "movement" I didn't comment because I don't see the relevance. My original post stated that "Daoism in the West is not heading in this direction, and even if it were, it still lacks the organization and the strength to create such a movement." This statement is purely descriptive, and means that mainstream (non-Western) Daoism is an established religion with a lot of social inertia behind its structure and practices. If Daoism in the West had hundreds of thousands of adherents, all sharing an originalist doctrine, then cross-cultural influences might act so as to cause mainstream Daoism to create a new offshoot (i.e. a new movement) with a more originalist doctrine. But since Western Daoism lacks organization and strength it's more likely that cross-cultural influences will cause mainstream Daoism to shape Western Daoism rather than the other way around.

[Mark Saltveit]

Some very good resources on the originalist question, which also interests me a lot:

 

Stephen Bokenkamp is a professor or Religious Studies and Philosophy at Arizona State, who has been one of the leading researchers on this subject for many years. His book "Early Daoist Scriptures" starts with the Celestial Masters and discusses many of the additions and changes to Daoism. His second book "Ancestors and Anxiety" looks specifically at concepts of rebirth in exploring how Daoism and Buddhism (and Chinese folk traditions) intertwined.

 

Scott Barnwell has a tremendously in-depth history of the earliest Daoism, ttiled "Classical Daoism – Is There Really Such a Thing?", in several parts on his blog Bao Pu. He's up to part 4.2 by now; might be best to start with part 1 of course. I can't recommend this highly enough.

[thinker]

Some very good resources on the originalist question, which also interests me a lot:

 

Thanks. More for my reading list.

Edited February 16, 2013 by thinker

[Taomeow]

I'm not sure I follow. Which chapter is this in?

In Wen-tzu (ignored by Western aficionados of Laozi who prefer to see him as a mild grandfatherly figure, something familiarity with Wen-tzu absolutely precludes); and my reference to predecessors -- that's the same words verbatim in Yuandao.

[kaaazuo]

I am a traditionalist, I seek to understand what a taoist was to taoists before "researchers" and "experts" (in other words, outsiders) and abide by that, to the extent I manage. From this perspective, I submit there's never been three branches -- taoism is integration, not fragmentation, of body-mind-spirit. The mind contemplates the philosophy of taoism or takes a wuwei break from contemplating anything; the body does qigong, taiji, takes in foods and herbs selected from the taoist perspective; the spirit guides the life, the actions, the choices of a taoist in every situation arising daily, and is guided by the tradition, by the immortals and deities of a lineage, by the teacher and master, by the inner voice of destiny, the voice of yin zhi, the voice of yi, the voices of nature, the voice of ganying, the voices of traditional taoist divination, the voice of tao... And so on.

 

This is a very interesting take on Taoism. You see it as a whole movement.

 

Can you share a little bit about what you are as a traditionalist in terms of "what a Taoist was to Taoists"?

[Mark Saltveit]

Do you mean this Wen-tzu? Interesting. Wikipedia says there's no authoritative English translation though. It seems to be controversial whether this represents the words of Lao Tzu or, as you might suspect, those of Wen Tzu.

[dawei]

http://www.paulvanels.nl/resources/publications/PvE2006Persuasion.pdf

[Mark Saltveit]

VERY interesting paper, thanks! Apparently, only some of the sections of chapter 5 of the well known text existed in the Han-dynasty fragments found at Dingzhou, and mostly the odd numbered sections: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13, 15 and 20.

[Taomeow]

I go with D.C. Lau's take as to the authenticity and authorship of all works ascribed to Laozi. He does not believe TTC was a "pioneering" work; neither do I. Ancient Chinese culture being really big on tradition and repetition, it works on creating a masterpiece for a long time, through many, many contributors -- and it doesn't matter as much as people trained to look up to some definitive authority tend to believe who was the actual guy who finally penned it down: he is never the first, and never the only, even if it's his name that gets to get repeated from that point on.

 

Pretty much everything in TTC is found in some earlier texts as well as the oral tradition. "In the human world, tao has been destroyed" is absolutely consistent with the overall gist of TTC, Wen-tzu and the earlier documents -- it does not contradict what they're trying to drive home at all -- in fact, it is the central axis around which all things taoist revolve. If it wasn't the case, why do things differently from the way "everybody" does them?.. Why not just glorify and petrify the status quo (like Confucianism) or announce it all an illusion and try to ignore it (like buddhism) or approach it as a well-deserved punishment for your sins (like Christianity) or take it upon yourself to dish out this punishment but call it a blessing (like communism, maoism, capitalism) and so on?.. Taoism is about restoring tao in the human world, not about assuming either that there's nothing wrong with the state of tao in the human world OR that nothing can (or should) be done about it. That was the main point of my post. A taoist is a realist and a pragmatist, not an idealist and not a nihilist. '

Oh, and Wiki ain't no authority on "authoritative" anything, what d'you reckon?.. Thomas Cleary has been criticized for his translations as consistently as the next guy, but the works he translated that happen to have different versions by assorted authors of varying degrees of academic good standing, which I had a chance to compare, left me convinced that "authoritative" is in the eye of the beholder. I think he takes some liberties with proprietary taoist terminology which I believe would be better off untranslated and extensively footnoted instead, but this is mostly a problem for a reader who is a beginner -- anyone familiar with a bunch of versions will have no trouble figuring out that "vitality, energy, spirit" are really "jing, qi, shen," and so on.

[kaaazuo]

Ancient Chinese culture being really big on tradition and repetition, it works on creating a masterpiece for a long time, through many, many contributors -- and it doesn't matter as much as people trained to look up to some definitive authority tend to believe who was the actual guy who finally penned it down: he is never the first, and never the only, even if it's his name that gets to get repeated from that point on.

 

Sounds right. Individualism is not a traditional Chinese value.

 

A taoist is a realist and a pragmatist, not an idealist and not a nihilist. '

 

How would you explain the Tao Te Ching's transcendental appeal to the west and religious Taoism in China?

 

Oh, and Wiki ain't no authority on "authoritative" anything, what d'you reckon?..

 

Amen to that.