What defines a Daoist?

[Cat Pillar]

Chinese taoists consider Fuxi the founder of taoism. (Why so many Westerners have come to believe it's Laozi is mystery of mysteries).

 

The Yellow Emperor is of course taoist to the core -- to say nothing of Xi Wangmu, the Great Mother of the West, who taught him.

 

And let's not forget the shaman-king Yu, King Wen and the Duke of Zhou.

 

I second zerostao, I really wish these guys were talked about more. I remember reading about them (I think it was from Alfred Huang's translation of the I Ching) but didn't get as much information as I would have liked.

 

Thanks to this thread for reminding me, though.

[kaaazuo]

Chinese taoists consider Fuxi the founder of taoism. (Why so many Westerners have come to believe it's Laozi is mystery of mysteries).

 

The Yellow Emperor is of course taoist to the core -- to say nothing of Xi Wangmu, the Great Mother of the West, who taught him.

 

And let's not forget the shaman-king Yu, King Wen and the Duke of Zhou.

 

Don't western taoists have a say?

[Phi92]

Western Taoism is just as much Taoism as Chinese Taoism. Everyone is free to interpret it and to think it through, to experience it in their own view.

 

We can say that Odin and Freya are Norse Gods, but we can't say that the Tao is only a Chinese concept.

 

Perhaps the word, not the Tao itself.

 

So if western people want to ignore traditional Chinese gods and consider Lao Zi as a founder, then let them do that.

 

I believe that's equally valid as any other form of Taoism.

 

In fact, I invite all cultures and all people in particular to develop their own, ecclectic view of Taoism and spirituality in general. That's the best way.

[zerostao]

" Don't western taoists have a say? "

sure but it isnt going to be as accurate of a say.

" So if western people want to ignore traditional Chinese gods and consider Lao Zi as a founder, then let them do that. '

the term " Laoist " gets tossed around some here.

go ahead and ignore the better parts of Taoism, doesnt matter to me. just sayin'

ed> spelling

Edited February 19, 2013 by zerostao

[Mark Saltveit]

Dawei;

 

TO ME, he is calling it out, like here:

"In the Western imagination, the Taoism of China has been ignored in favor of a Taoism of our own devising"

Who is arguing the DDJ is itself a distorted Daoism, the paper?

 

 

Yes. You should read the whole paper, which was linked earlier in this topic. It's certainly interesting, but Kirkland is throwing some wild punches with very little evidence (yet speaking as if he knew exactly what happened in 350 BCE. For example, p.9:

 

The man who designed and packaged the ideas found in the Tao te ching was a very clever marketer. Apparently inspired by the form of an anonymous 4th-century text called the Nei-yeh, which also featured a great reality called "Tao," the redactor of the Tao te ching carefully sanitized the traditions that he had brought from his southern homeland of Ch'u, and removed any and all names of real people, real places, real events, or anything else that might remind a 3rd-century Chinese intellectual from one state of the traditions of another state.

 

The thing is, no one has evidence for any of these things he is saying -- that there was one "redactor" of the DDJ, who lived in a Northern city, modeled this on the Ney-yeh (which is very different), designed this as a marketing ploy, etc. That's why he has never been able to get this paper published -- it clearly didn't pass peer review.

 

Look, I like Hunter S. Thompson as much as the next guy, but his entertaining, fire-breathing rhetoric was (usually) in the service of shrewd insights about events that he personally was living, at the time. That's why Harvard's Kennedy School of Government uses "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" as a text for its courses.

 

Kirkland is attacking Western appropriation of Taoism by people from the West who he charges don't really understand it. Kirkland -- a White westerner and apparently not even a self-proclaimed Daoist -- makes his money issuing pronouncements like this without any evidence. See anything wrong with this picture?

[Mark Saltveit]

 

Stigweard, on 18 Feb 2013 - 03:46, said:

I hugged a tree today ... I felt pretty defined by that

 

Marblehead: Your hair has grown since I last saw you.

 

And you're ripped! Stigweard, you've really been working out. Are you using supplements, or some cool Daoist technique we should know about?

[dawei]

Chinese taoists consider Fuxi the founder of taoism. (Why so many Westerners have come to believe it's Laozi is mystery of mysteries).

 

The Yellow Emperor is of course taoist to the core -- to say nothing of Xi Wangmu, the Great Mother of the West, who taught him.

 

And let's not forget the shaman-king Yu, King Wen and the Duke of Zhou.

 

Glad to see someone chime in on the question as I was spending the day reading some of my books collecting dust on Chu, Shamanism, and Xi Wangmu. Glad to see you included her in the list.

 

I agree with what you say and I think probably the "3 Sovereigns and 5 Kings" were probably Shaman-king-Taoist of some sort.

 

But it is clear that something unique arose in the State of Chu in regards to Shamanism. The northerners seemed to fear their "beliefs in spirits and ghosts" and thus labeled them barbarians for their "religious rites and ways".

 

---

 

I wanted to ask you but not sure if you know this issue: In the oracle bones, there is a reference to Xi Mu (Mother of the West) but some say it is not definitive enough to say if this is the same as Xi Wang Mu (Queen Mother of the West) because there is a big gap when each is referenced. I don't have a problem with the association of the two as one. Any thoughts on her?

[PrimordialLotus]

You cannot "learn" to be a "true Taoist"; The true way is emptiness. Attempt to learn it and lose it.

 

It is said: "He who devotes himself to learning seeks from day to day to increase his knowledge; he who devotes himself to the Tao seeks from day to day to diminish his doing."

[Mark Saltveit]

Taomeow: Chinese taoists consider Fuxi the founder of taoism. (Why so many Westerners have come to believe it's Laozi is mystery of mysteries).

 

All of them? Really? I think it might be a tiny bit more complicated than that.

 

Fuxi is the serpent God who fathered the entire human race with his sister in the 29th century BCE, so I suppose he's utlimately the founder of all human things, including Daoism. But -- this is just what I hear, I wasn't there -- the Celestial Masters felt pretty strongly about Laozi's role starting in 142 CE, and all religious Daoism that we know of descends from that tradition. It's not like Benjamin Hoff made Laozi up in the Tao of Pooh.

[PrimordialLotus]

All of them? Really? I think it might be a tiny bit more complicated than that.

 

Fuxi is the serpent God who fathered the entire human race with his sister in the 29th century BCE, so I suppose he's utlimately the founder of all human things, including Daoism. But -- this is just what I hear, I wasn't there -- the Celestial Masters felt pretty strongly about Laozi's role starting in 142 CE, and all religious Daoism that we know of descends from that tradition. It's not like Benjamin Hoff made Laozi up in the Tao of Pooh.

 

I never knew that.

 

I just read the wiki on Fu Xi and Nuwa. Apparently they created humans from clay according to the myth; this can be found in numerous cultures, the creation from clay. And it sounds alot like Noah's Ark with the flood and all.

[Phi92]

I call my clay "Evolution"

[dawei]

Dawei;

 

 

 

Yes. You should read the whole paper, which was linked earlier in this topic. It's certainly interesting, but Kirkland is throwing some wild punches with very little evidence (yet speaking as if he knew exactly what happened in 350 BCE. For example, p.9:

 

 

The thing is, no one has evidence for any of these things he is saying -- that there was one "redactor" of the DDJ, who lived in a Northern city, modeled this on the Ney-yeh (which is very different), designed this as a marketing ploy, etc. That's why he has never been able to get this paper published -- it clearly didn't pass peer review.

 

Look, I like Hunter S. Thompson as much as the next guy, but his entertaining, fire-breathing rhetoric was (usually) in the service of shrewd insights about events that he personally was living, at the time. That's why Harvard's Kennedy School of Government uses "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" as a text for its courses.

 

Kirkland is attacking Western appropriation of Taoism by people from the West who he charges don't really understand it. Kirkland -- a White westerner and apparently not even a self-proclaimed Daoist -- makes his money issuing pronouncements like this without any evidence. See anything wrong with this picture?

 

I did read through most of it but I did not see that part you quoted. I have read some of his other works too.

 

The more I read about the time of Chu, in the time of LZ, I can see why Kirkland might say some of these things. Chu was called "superstitutions" and "barbarian" by the north. Chu seemed, by the northerners, to collect myth, monsters, and ghosts faster than time moved... And if one sees their art, pictures, and writings on shamanism, spirits, and deities... it isn't that far off an observation to the commoner.

 

What may be missing is what is the usual suspect in this: A spiritual movement is rarely understood by common folks and it gets most bothersome when what they mistake for discomfort may be their spirit moving. But it is very clear that Chu provides the background for the later alchemy, religious and immortality movements, IMO.

 

I personally think the LZ in it's current Wang Bi version is different from its original form. But we see some consistent thought in other writers/writings of that time. And LZ did reference people before him, as Zhuangzi did by actual name. So it is in a certain tradition of thought, IMO, which seems to have found a center in Chu.

 

Little referenced is that the founder of the Han Dynasty, Liu Bang, was from Chu and the court changes he made in the Chu style. And then you have Emperor Wu's affinity with Daoism. So while some like to say that Daoism arose in popularity in the Han, it may be more accurate to say it was the shamanism of Chu relabeled as Daoism on some level. . It clear to me that the Chu-Shaman emphasis on the two great orders/ways (man and universe) is the forerunner of what LZ made simple by avoiding too much reference to deities.

[kaaazuo]

Great discussion! The west has a saying: Wise man say, only fools rush in.

 

The Chinese also have a saying: 乌龟 终 于 要 爬 上 山了! 祝 大 家 好 运 ！

[dawei]

I never knew that.

 

I just read the wiki on Fu Xi and Nuwa. Apparently they created humans from clay according to the myth; this can be found in numerous cultures, the creation from clay. And it sounds alot like Noah's Ark with the flood and all.

 

Some folklore on them:

1. Yes... brother and sister... but I heard she was the boss as there are more creation stories for her. And they prohibited marrying same family members thereafter.

 

2. According to "Duyi Zhi" (獨異志) by Li Rong of the Tang Dynasty (618-907), sectioned as “opening of the universe”, there were a brother and a sister called Nvwa, living in Kunlun Mountains (崑崙), and there were no ordinary people at that time. They wished to become husband and wife, yet, felt shy about it. Thus, the brother took his younger sister to the top of the mountain and swore: "If Heaven allows us to be husband and wife, please let the clouds gather; if not, please let the clouds scatter." Then, the clouds gathered together. The younger sister came to live with her brother. She made a fan with grass to hide her face. The present custom of women taking a fan in their hands originated from that story.

3. The Qin is an instrument attributed to Fuxi. It has 7 strings for Yin, Yang, and the 5 elements.

4. Huaiyang is thought to be the capital of King Fuxi and where he died. In the north stands the Taihao Fuxi Mausoleum or Renzu Temple, the “Ancestor Temple”. It was first built in the Spring and Autumn Period and then developed in the Han with a temple built in front. It was built with the logic of Fuxi’s eight diagrams. There is terse inscription showing Fu Xi's importance: "Among the three primogenitors of Hua-Xia civilization, Fu Xi in Huaiyang Country ranks first.” The ceiling depicts the 64 hexagrams.

5. There is a well known picture of Fu Xi and Nu Wa as husband and wife (with lower halves intertwined as snakes) which dates to the late Han period. Fuxi is holding a carpenter’s square (矩,Ju-symbol of earth) and Nuwa is holding a compass (規, Gui-symbol of heaven). The words together as Gui Ju mean a rule, custom, keeping order or well-behaved. Thus, these words also hold the meaning as measuring some distinction (ie: between right and wrong). This is seen as one of the oldest archtypes of comparing heaven (round) and earth (square), and as a representative dualism of Yin and Yang (Fuxi as yang oversees Earth as yin; Nuwa as yin oversees heaven as yang).

6. Nuwa is celebrated each year at the Wa Huang Gong Temple in Hebei Province. There is a Nuwa temple in Longcheng Village, Qinan county of Gansu Province. Some of the minorities in South-Western China hail Nüwa as their goddess and some festivals, such as the "Water-Splashing Festival," are in part a tribute to her sacrifices. Nüwa is also the traditional divine goddess of the Miao people.

[thinker]

Yes. You should read the whole paper, which was linked earlier in this topic. It's certainly interesting, but Kirkland is throwing some wild punches with very little evidence (yet speaking as if he knew exactly what happened in 350 BCE. For example, p.9:

 

Agreed. I've read a few papers by Kirkland. The one that you're referencing is the most disappointing of the lot, and lowered my overall opinion of his work. He seems to have some kind of personal ax to grind, and throws around unsubstantiated, unconvincing claims as support. He has, however, written some other material in which he provided useful points of view, and good references to go with them. I consider him not so much a good source of conclusions about Daoism, but a useful source of references related to contemporary issues in Daoism, in those papers where he actually bothers to give the references.

[Taomeow]

All of them? Really? I think it might be a tiny bit more complicated than that.

 

Fuxi is the serpent God who fathered the entire human race with his sister in the 29th century BCE, so I suppose he's utlimately the founder of all human things, including Daoism. But -- this is just what I hear, I wasn't there -- the Celestial Masters felt pretty strongly about Laozi's role starting in 142 CE, and all religious Daoism that we know of descends from that tradition. It's not like Benjamin Hoff made Laozi up in the Tao of Pooh.

 

All of them. Really.

 

If they don't know it, taoists they may be, by some definitions that are seen, e.g., here on occasion... along the lines of, "whatever I believe a taoist is, that's what a taoist is, period. And if I can't define what a taoist is, then nobody can. And if anyone says he or she can, he or she is full of crap because I say so." And so on. But in reality, for a taoist not knowing about Fuxi's role (don't look to Wiki for that, OK?) as the founder of taoism is akin to a Christian not knowing that Christianity has something to do with Jesus Christ.

 

Laozi wasn't even the first text included in the Taoist Canon. (That would be the I Ching, hands down my favorite.) His position in taoism is assured by all sects and schools recognizing him, however they don't all agree on his identity. Most consider him a deity. Some differentiate between his human aspect and his deified aspect. Others view him as the Great Mother herself, believe it or not. (In this version, he gives birth to himself.) And still others view him as a political philosopher, and his texts as a set of guidelines and admonitions for the ruler that have little or nothing to do with the commoner. (This latter view is the one I share to a great extent.) And still others view him as the encryptor of an alchemical text (true, true -- but you have to have learned taoist alchemy to appreciate this aspect of TTC, which the overwhelming majority of researchers and translators never did; the "you" is, as usual, generic); and practitioners of taoist martial arts know TTC for a superb guide aimed primarily at refining and focusing one's yi (chapter 15 which I already brought up is, to me, a step by step guide to correctly positioning one's intent when doing taiji -- but I do taiji, and would probably have a hard time proving this point to anyone who doesn't). All in all, it's a rich source, but not the first one, not the only one, and to many taoists into something else, not the most important one. (Although it's traditional to pay homage to Laozi even by those who don't have a lot of practical or theoretical use for his material. The government palace in China is still adorned with the portrait of Mao, but it doesn't mean all they do there these days is promulgate classical maoism...)

[Taomeow]

Glad to see someone chime in on the question as I was spending the day reading some of my books collecting dust on Chu, Shamanism, and Xi Wangmu. Glad to see you included her in the list.

 

I agree with what you say and I think probably the "3 Sovereigns and 5 Kings" were probably Shaman-king-Taoist of some sort.

 

But it is clear that something unique arose in the State of Chu in regards to Shamanism. The northerners seemed to fear their "beliefs in spirits and ghosts" and thus labeled them barbarians for their "religious rites and ways".

 

---

 

I wanted to ask you but not sure if you know this issue: In the oracle bones, there is a reference to Xi Mu (Mother of the West) but some say it is not definitive enough to say if this is the same as Xi Wang Mu (Queen Mother of the West) because there is a big gap when each is referenced. I don't have a problem with the association of the two as one. Any thoughts on her?

Alas, I don't know. I tend to be pretty literal with taoist sources (I'm not a scholar, I'm a practitioner, so I only know thoroughly enough what I actually do, mostly), and if they say she's a goddess, she's a goddess to me, and as such is not negated by a big gap between documented appearances. But that's not an answer to your question (which I don't have), just an aside...

 

Something indeed happened with shamanism in Chu... I suspect an alien intervention (as usual) -- which reminds me -- have you ever researched "Sons of Reflected Light," who the taoist tradition credits with "really" starting "it all?"

[Taomeow]

Don't western taoists have a say?

Um... I don't really have a good concise term for what I want to express when I say "Chinese taoists" for the sake of brevity. What I really mean is "taoists who are taoists according to the traditional standards of Chinese taoism." They can be Westerners too, provided they approach taoism in accordance with the traditional standards of Chinese taoism (rather than from the position of cultural, ideological, spiritual colonialism.) That's who I meant.

[dawei]

Alas, I don't know. I tend to be pretty literal with taoist sources (I'm not a scholar, I'm a practitioner, so I only know thoroughly enough what I actually do, mostly), and if they say she's a goddess, she's a goddess to me, and as such is not negated by a big gap between documented appearances. But that's not an answer to your question (which I don't have), just an aside...

 

Something indeed happened with shamanism in Chu... I suspect an alien intervention (as usual) -- which reminds me -- have you ever researched "Sons of Reflected Light," who the taoist tradition credits with "really" starting "it all?"

 

I have never heard of SORL... but after spending the day reading on Chu and Shamanism in literature, art, and archaeology I was alarmed at how Chu depicted alien portraits in 500 BC in documents but pottery goes back several thousands of years. My immediate reaction was to do the following:

1. Sit back in chair. Get comfortable. Adjust back as a little pain in the tailbone always says 'hi'.

2. Give several long, clearing breaths; Slow in and even slower out. (someone might want to know if this is to the lower dan tian or where? To where ever you need it! )

3. Let the energy rise from the centers to the skin; then outward to the universe; Connect.

4. This is my crude way. I am sure others have it much more refined.

 

Intervention arose... and it stopped there... So I asked you.

 

Your response is more than enough. It validates my query even if it does not answer it. An answer is often not required... which I suspect you know. I need to repeat the above steps for your response... as I am not at the point of instantly absorbing your thought. But I suspect that I could query you without writing a question here.

[Mark Saltveit]

Taomeow wrote

 

All of them. Really.

 

I guess we may have to agree to disagree. Certainly, one very important message I get from Daoism is the importance of not digging in too rigidly on dogma, on things that one thinks are right. I don't see a single statement I could make that would be true about every one of the hundreds of millions of Daoists in China over the 2,500 years or more of the tradition (5,400 years if you're right about Fu Xi) except that they like the word Dao.

 

That's what I dislike about that paper by Kirkland -- he is claiming absolute certainty about events two and a half millenia ago, when there is no way he could be sure. In fact he has (and cites) no evidence whatsoever. The fog of war is nothing compared to the fog of history.

Laozi wasn't even the first text included in the Taoist Canon. (That would be the I Ching, hands down my favorite.) His position in taoism is assured by all sects and schools recognizing him, however they don't all agree on his identity.

 

Exactly, people don't agree on even these major points, which makes me wonder what the source of your certainty is. The first Daozang wasn't assembled until 700 years after the Zhuangzi and Daodejing were compiled, so the judgment of Lu Xiujing in 437 C.E. that Yijing comes first is not the only valid opinion.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mark Saltveit

[PrimordialLotus]

Some folklore on them:

1. Yes... brother and sister... but I heard she was the boss as there are more creation stories for her. And they prohibited marrying same family members thereafter.

 

2. According to "Duyi Zhi" (獨異志) by Li Rong of the Tang Dynasty (618-907), sectioned as “opening of the universe”, there were a brother and a sister called Nvwa, living in Kunlun Mountains (崑崙), and there were no ordinary people at that time. They wished to become husband and wife, yet, felt shy about it. Thus, the brother took his younger sister to the top of the mountain and swore: "If Heaven allows us to be husband and wife, please let the clouds gather; if not, please let the clouds scatter." Then, the clouds gathered together. The younger sister came to live with her brother. She made a fan with grass to hide her face. The present custom of women taking a fan in their hands originated from that story.

3. The Qin is an instrument attributed to Fuxi. It has 7 strings for Yin, Yang, and the 5 elements.

4. Huaiyang is thought to be the capital of King Fuxi and where he died. In the north stands the Taihao Fuxi Mausoleum or Renzu Temple, the “Ancestor Temple”. It was first built in the Spring and Autumn Period and then developed in the Han with a temple built in front. It was built with the logic of Fuxi’s eight diagrams. There is terse inscription showing Fu Xi's importance: "Among the three primogenitors of Hua-Xia civilization, Fu Xi in Huaiyang Country ranks first.” The ceiling depicts the 64 hexagrams.

5. There is a well known picture of Fu Xi and Nu Wa as husband and wife (with lower halves intertwined as snakes) which dates to the late Han period. Fuxi is holding a carpenter’s square (矩,Ju-symbol of earth) and Nuwa is holding a compass (規, Gui-symbol of heaven). The words together as Gui Ju mean a rule, custom, keeping order or well-behaved. Thus, these words also hold the meaning as measuring some distinction (ie: between right and wrong). This is seen as one of the oldest archtypes of comparing heaven (round) and earth (square), and as a representative dualism of Yin and Yang (Fuxi as yang oversees Earth as yin; Nuwa as yin oversees heaven as yang).

6. Nuwa is celebrated each year at the Wa Huang Gong Temple in Hebei Province. There is a Nuwa temple in Longcheng Village, Qinan county of Gansu Province. Some of the minorities in South-Western China hail Nüwa as their goddess and some festivals, such as the "Water-Splashing Festival," are in part a tribute to her sacrifices. Nüwa is also the traditional divine goddess of the Miao people.

 

1. Matriarchy again? How boring. I prefer anarchy/chaos. However, the way dictates that the "lower" is always the higher; while the "higher" is always the lower. So him being the lower half makes sense. "Everything that rises must fall."

 

2. Inbreeding? How nice...I suppose when you get down to it we are all brothers and sisters in some way, form, or fashion.

 

3. Interesting.

 

 

 

4. Ah, so the eight diagrams, Ba Gua, can be attributed to Fu Xi? Its funny because the masons say "the serpent is the true god." That's what they believe.

 

Link to Wiki on Fu Xi BaGua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Diagrams#Fuxi_.22Earlier_Heaven.22

 

5. You mean this picture?

 

 

6. Worshiping representations as gods and goddesses so base.

Edited February 19, 2013 by PrimordialLotus

[kaaazuo]

Um... I don't really have a good concise term for what I want to express when I say "Chinese taoists" for the sake of brevity. What I really mean is "taoists who are taoists according to the traditional standards of Chinese taoism." They can be Westerners too, provided they approach taoism in accordance with the traditional standards of Chinese taoism (rather than from the position of cultural, ideological, spiritual colonialism.) That's who I meant.

 

Is it possible for westerners to practise (Chinese) Taoism? That would be tough, even cruel. I cannot imagine why any westerner would want to do that. Small wonder that Daoism in North America is an emergent American religion. Naturally, there will be a marked dinstinction between the traditional (Chinese) Taoist, such as yourself, and Pooh-bear Taoists.

[Marblehead]

You cannot "learn" to be a "true Taoist"; The true way is emptiness. Attempt to learn it and lose it.

 

It is said: "He who devotes himself to learning seeks from day to day to increase his knowledge; he who devotes himself to the Tao seeks from day to day to diminish his doing."

Indeed. However, I suggest that the True Way is both emptiness and fullness.

[PrimordialLotus]

Indeed. However, I suggest that the True Way is both emptiness and fullness.

 

Void is the primordial, substance is the manifestation. Being stems from non-being. The Nameless flows through all things and then returns to the state of non-being.

 

Formless and perfect.

[Marblehead]

Void is the primordial, substance is the manifestation. Being stems from non-being. The Nameless flows through all things and then returns to the state of non-being.

 

Formless and perfect.

I love talking about Taoist concepts. You done good here. Cycles and reversion.