What defines a Daoist?

[thinker]

If we internalize Lao Tzu's Way, we would live the teaching of Confucius.

 

That's an interesting supposition. We joked in some thread recently that every Daoist seems to be writing a book about Daoism. I think this is yours. If you can support this idea, that Confucianism and Daoism converge on the same outcome, it would make interesting reading.

[dawei]

Thus I would say that early Daoism was more centered around the rejection of ideology and traditions, while contemporary Daoism has become more approving of it.

 

I will assume you essentially mean Lao Zi as early Daoism?

 

The problem I have with that is as I stated in one of these threads: He quotes from others before him and references past sages. He looks to the past. Zhuang Zi does both of these as well. The first real movement to organize some thought about what is a Daoist was Huang-Lao period of Han. The great historian, Sima Qian, stated Daoist were a mix of the 'best of the rest'. Each of those other 'schools' are the formation of their own traditions. So I do not necessarily see a rejection of traditions.

 

I will add that Confucius was probably very stuck in the past.

 

And I will add this: IMO, Chinese history shows us there is a tendency to depend on the past for answers for today and tomorrow. While we might say this is nothing more than "learning from your mistakes and successes", IMO, the ancients saw some wisdom in looking to the past.

[dawei]

That's an interesting supposition. We joked in some thread recently that every Daoist seems to be writing a book about Daoism. I think this is yours. If you can support this idea, that Confucianism and Daoism converge on the same outcome, it would make interesting reading.

 

"The Three Teachings Are One"

 

Have you heard of The Three Vinegar Tasters?

 

http://www.alivenotdead.com/nstanosheck/San-Jiao-He-Yi-Three-Teachings-Harmonious-As-One-profile-1625407.html

 

Or the Three Deities which embody the Three Teachings?

 

http://cheetongtemple.weebly.com/deities.html

[Mark Saltveit]

kaaazuo: Which traditional Daoism do I follow? Christ almighty!

I think I will get on my buffalo and head west.

 

Great. Another reincarnation of Laozi. This place is crawling with them.

If Westerners are so incapable of understanding Dao and beneath you, why are you even here?

Edited February 24, 2013 by Mark Saltveit

[thinker]

I will assume you essentially mean Lao Zi as early Daoism?

 

The problem I have with that is as I stated in one of these threads: He quotes from others before him and references past sages. He looks to the past. Zhuang Zi does both of these as well. The first real movement to organize some thought about what is a Daoist was Huang-Lao period of Han. The great historian, Sima Qian, stated Daoist were a mix of the 'best of the rest'. Each of those other 'schools' are the formation of their own traditions. So I do not necessarily see a rejection of traditions.

 

Again, not to seem argumentative (I have a gift for it), but...

 

Of necessity. As far as I know, the earliest recorded indisputably Daoist text that we have, even if it wasn't called "Daoism" back then, is the DDJ from the Guodian Chu slips. Before that, what we might today call "Daoist doctrine" was an oral tradition whose content we have no way to verify. So if we're to discuss "early Daoism" in any meaningful fashion then we can't go much further back than the Guodian slips (very roughly 300 BC) without losing most of our confidence in the subject. By 100 AD we've already progressed to the point at which Daoism was being significantly affected by non-Daoist influences, such as the arrival of Buddhism via the "silk road". This being the case, when I speak of "early Daoism", or "classical Daoism", or "Dao Jia", I am, as far as I know, referring to Daoism as it existed from about 350 BC to about 50 AD. I accept the legitimacy of syncretic Daoist sects that contain significant non-Daoist influences acquired after 50 AD, such as Gods, elements of Buddhism, etc... but I disagree with them. That is, they still contain enough Daoism to be labelled "Daoism", but they're no longer purely Daoist.

 

When I speak of Laozi "creating" Daoism I mean that in the sense that he was recording, espousing, and possibly expanding upon, part or all of an already existing oral tradition, whose further past we may never know anything about.

 

I disagree with you when you seem to say that Daoism is defined by:

 

"The first real movement to organize some thought about what is a Daoist was Huang-Lao period of Han. The great historian, Sima Qian, stated Daoist were a mix of the 'best of the rest'."

 

First, the first real movement to organize some thought about "what is a Daoist" was the writing of the religious doctrine that we call the DDJ. The fact that they didn't call it "Daoism" then doesn't change that. He/they were assembling a doctrine by which they thought people should live, by whatever name.

 

Second, to me using Sima Qian's work is a bit like having a written recording of the words and actions of Christ, and then stating that Christianity is as defined by some historian who came along several centuries later and syncretized the words and actions of Christ with material taken from several other admittedly non-Christian sources. By that logic, if Christianity had neither caught on, nor been defined yet, then I could come along tomorrow, syncretize it with ballet dancing, declare wearing pink tutus a sacrament, and from that point on "Christianity" would be formally defined in terms of both Christ and pink ballet tights, because I wrote about it first.

 

Christianity is not defined in terms of what the first historian to write about it choose to say about it when he coined the term (what makes his opinion worth anything anyway?), it's defined in terms of what we know about the words and actions of Christ. Similarly, Daoism is not defined in terms of what Sima Qian chose to say about it when he wrote about it. What if he had turned out to be a serial killer and thought that the "best of the rest" included human sacrifices? Would we then mandate that Daoism had to include human sacrifices because a historian describing it centuries after the fact said so? Daoism is defined by the words and actions of Laozi, or at least the words and actions attributed to him in the DDJ, should he turn out not to be a single, or even real, person. The extent to which Sima Qian added in new, non-Daoist elements when he wrote about it several centuries later is the extent to which he got it wrong. If no elements of Buddhist doctrine are present in the DDJ, or in other similarly dated works, if you wish to include them in the Daoist canon, then there's no Buddhism in Daoism. Buddhist elements may have been adopted into some Daoist sects later, but that's what makes those Daoist sects "syncretic".

[thinker]

"The Three Teachings Are One"

 

Have you heard of The Three Vinegar Tasters?

 

http://www.alivenotdead.com/nstanosheck/San-Jiao-He-Yi-Three-Teachings-Harmonious-As-One-profile-1625407.html

 

Or the Three Deities which embody the Three Teachings?

 

http://cheetongtemple.weebly.com/deities.html

 

The fact that some choose to practice all three traditions at the same time doesn't make them the same tradition. I know at least one hybrid Catholic/Daoist, but that doesn't mean that there's an identity, or even a similarity, between Catholicism and Daoism.

 

The fact that there's a sect that syncretizes the three traditions also doesn't make them identical, any more than I can turn chocolate into peanut butter by making Reese's Pieces out of them.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of taking the Three Treasures and showing that practicing them would, per force, cause one to exhibit each of the Confucian virtues, and vice-versa. i.e. literally making a list of the doctrinal points of each religion, and showing that practicing all of one would force one to practice all of the other, and vice-versa. This would prove an equivalence relationship between the two traditions. Or making the case, on sociological grounds, that the kind of society that would result from everyone becoming a devout Confucianist would be essentially the same as the kind of society that would result from everyone becoming a devout Daoist.

Edited February 24, 2013 by thinker

[9th]

The disciples saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb on his way to Judea. Yeshua said to his disciples, "That man is round about the lamb."
They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it."
Yeshua said to them, "While it is alive, he will not eat it, but only when he has killed it and it has become a corpse."
They said to him, "He cannot do so otherwise."
Yeshua said to them, "You too, look for a place for yourself within repose, lest you become a corpse and be eaten."

 

 

Yeshua said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being. If you become my disciples and listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death."

 

 

Yeshua said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do then? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do then?"

 

 

Yeshua said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like."
Yeshua said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did he say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."

 

 

- Gospel of Thomas

Edited February 24, 2013 by 9th

[dawei]

When I speak of Laozi "creating" Daoism I mean that in the sense that he was recording, espousing, and possibly expanding upon, part or all of an already existing oral tradition, whose further past we may never know anything about.

 

Agreed.

 

I disagree with you when you seem to say that Daoism is defined by:

 

"The first real movement to organize some thought about what is a Daoist was Huang-Lao period of Han. The great historian, Sima Qian, stated Daoist were a mix of the 'best of the rest'."

 

First, the first real movement to organize some thought about "what is a Daoist" was the writing of the religious doctrine that we call the DDJ. The fact that they didn't call it "Daoism" then doesn't change that. He/they were assembling a doctrine by which they thought people should live, by whatever name.

 

Maybe we are not that far apart.I specifically said a "movement" to define what is a Daoist. I can see the argument for LZ work but his was not the first work on Dao. But he certainly provided a very organized thought about Dao in a succinct way.

 

 

Second, to me using Sima Qian's work is a bit like having a written recording of the words and actions of Christ, and then stating that Christianity is as defined by some historian who came along several centuries later and syncretized the words and actions of Christ with material taken from several other admittedly non-Christian sources. By that logic, if Christianity had neither caught on, nor been defined yet, then I could come along tomorrow, syncretize it with ballet dancing, declare wearing pink tutus a sacrament, and from that point on "Christianity" would be formally defined in terms of both Christ and pink ballet tights, because I wrote about it first.

 

Christianity is not defined in terms of what the first historian to write about it choose to say about it when he coined the term (what makes his opinion worth anything anyway?), it's defined in terms of what we know about the words and actions of Christ. Similarly, Daoism is not defined in terms of what Sima Qian chose to say about it when he wrote about it. What if he had turned out to be a serial killer and thought that the "best of the rest" included human sacrifices? Would we then mandate that Daoism had to include human sacrifices because a historian describing it centuries after the fact said so? Daoism is defined by the words and actions of Laozi, or at least the words and actions attributed to him in the DDJ, should he turn out not to be a single, or even real, person. The extent to which Sima Qian added in new, non-Daoist elements when he wrote about it several centuries later is the extent to which he got it wrong. If no elements of Buddhist doctrine are present in the DDJ, or in other similarly dated works, if you wish to include them in the Daoist canon, then there's no Buddhism in Daoism. Buddhist elements may have been adopted into some Daoist sects later, but that's what makes those Daoist sects "syncretic".

 

Too many words and stories are being thrown around. Let's stick to the ancient texts.

 

My point was about a movement to define what is a Daoist. I see Sima Qian as wanting to define a Daoist. But I can see that if LZ was defining Dao it could be construed he was defining a Daoist... but I don't see his desire to be a 'movement'. I do see SIma Qian more in this light.

 

If I was to bring in all three issues:

 

Dao - eternal

Daoism - started with Fuxi (naturally following Dao; no written words needed to teach)

Daoist - start with Fuxi

 

Earliest writings/writers about Dao ideas which influenced later Daoist texts, in order: Yang Chu, Shen Dao, Wen Zi, Guan Zi Tai Yi Sheng Shui, Lushi Chuqiu, Lao Zi, Chu Ci, Lie Zi, Zhuang Zi, Huainanzi.

 

There are many others quoted by the early writers but the works are lost (ie: Yellow Emperor).

 

It seems most plausible that the LZ is a syncretic text. D.C. Lau said LZ was an anthology of teachings of many masters. The Lushi Chunqiu (240 bc) mentions ten great thinkers/philosophers. Seven of the ten show similarities to the LZ. The Lushhi Chunqiu is said to have 2/3 of the topics of the LZ... Yet the work only mentions LZ by name, not the writing. And it has been noted that this work tended to quote books as its reference. Each ancient document above has been studied by someone who found parallels to the LZ.

 

The LZ was not called the DDJ till the Han period called it a "classic". Although at one time it was see as the Dao Text and the De Text. But ancient writer's referred to it as simply the LZ.

 

The Shiji (100 bc) is Sima QIan's work and the organizing of the "school of six".

 

The Hanshu Yiwenzhi (50) talks of Daoist as syncretism; thus, following Sima QIan and what seems evident in the The Lushhi Chunqiu.

 

 

Prior to Sima Qian, I don't see any definition of a movement of people called the Daoist. Only talk of a book which was in a tradition.

[dawei]

The fact that some choose to practice all three traditions at the same time doesn't make them the same tradition. I know at least one hybrid Catholic/Daoist, but that doesn't mean that there's an identity, or even a similarity, between Catholicism and Daoism.

 

The fact that there's a sect that syncretizes the three traditions also doesn't make them identical, any more than I can turn chocolate into peanut butter by making Reese's Pieces out of them.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of taking the Three Treasures and showing that practicing them would, per force, cause one to exhibit each of the Confucian virtues, and vice-versa. i.e. literally making a list of the doctrinal points of each religion, and showing that practicing all of one would force one to practice all of the other, and vice-versa. This would prove an equivalence relationship between the two traditions. Or making the case, on sociological grounds, that the kind of society that would result from everyone becoming a devout Confucianist would be essentially the same as the kind of society that would result from everyone becoming a devout Daoist.

 

I am not talking about hybrid beliefs or turning chocolate into peanut butter. I don't think the actual practice matters as that is just a means to an end. The point to me is they were all wise in their own way and they come together (in this life or the higher realm) as one.

 

But your idea to break down the practices and compare them side by side might be an interesting exercise. I would look forward to reading it.

[Mark Saltveit]

Thanks for that info, Dawei.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i have a thought, maybe even a full blown idea...




Everyone define a member.



We'll pick a member, preferrably someone who claims to be [a] Taoist, define them in our own words, and share it.




That might better assist in a "taoist definition" than trying to define a subjective "taoist".

[shanlung]

To folks of the Tao,

even if we cannot agree as to what the Tao is.

 

I beg absence of leave for some time as I embarked on my own journey on the Path.

I am seeking for a place to retire in. I wrote of that a bit earlier in my blog. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/140773.html

 

Definately not in Singapore where I have the misfortune to be born in and holding the passport here. Which has the distinction of being the most miserable country in a Gallup polls finding. It also has the distinction of the most unemotional country in another Gallup polls finding.

 

Even when compared to folks of basketcase countries like BanglaDesh or Phillipines.

Even when compared to folks in war torn counties like Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.

Or even both in one such as in Somali

 

Read that in a blog below.

Singapore. The most miserable people in the world, says Gallup poll

http://singaporedissident.blogspot.sg/2012/12/singapore-most-miserable-people-in.html

Much unlike what the regime here portray as very happy people and all blessings including rising of the sun and falling of rain and blossoming of flowers entirely due to the wise leadership of the government of Singapore. Might amuse you the world 30 top highest politicians are all found in Singapore.

http://mysingaporenews.blogspot.sg/2009/04/top-30-highest-paid-politicians-in.html

 

So before you bad mouth your politicians, think how lucky you are compared to folks in Singapore. They cannot be voted out. So I vote with my feet.

 

To find that place to retire in, I cannot rely on what others say. I need to go there, and live there for 3-4 weeks to see if I will fit in. I live simply and worked long enough not to have to work anymore. I will be going to a few places to check them out.

 

So I will eventually be going to Pokhara, Nepal. To Laos and China.

Probably to Spain and Central America and later to Ecuador.

I dislike cities, preferring hamlets and small towns and close to mountains or the sea.

 

This evening in about ten hours time, I have a bus ticket that will take me to the first of that destination. Taiping of Perak in Malaysia. To be there for 3-4 weeks, followed by XYZ or where ever the Tao lead me to and that I can feel closer to the Tao even if I cannot know what the Tao is.

 

If LZ would have his rathers, I think he probably would rather sit in a bus instead of the back of an ox.

 

 

Obviously I might not be in the Internet , or in it for brief visits.

 

I feel that when I get back here, you all will not be any closer to defining a Taoist , or the Tao or even what fa jing is.

 

Or find you all making a wiser choice of just sitting around and enjoying tea.

 

Idiot on the Path

[zerostao]

enjoy your travels shanlung. thanks for sharing your perspective.

maybe our paths will cross one day.

nice birds there in central america

[Marblehead]

Obviously I might not be in the Internet , or in it for brief visits.

 

I feel that when I get back here, you all will not be any closer to defining a Taoist , or the Tao or even what fa jing is.

 

Or find you all making a wiser choice of just sitting around and enjoying tea.

You take good care, Okay? Best wishes for finding your retirement home.

[Birch]

Have a good journey. Hope you find the place you're looking for:-)

[thinker]

To folks of the Tao,

 

Have you thought about heading south and visiting Australia or New Zealand?

[chenping]

Have you thought about heading south and visiting Australia or New Zealand?

 

There is no escape for those who are unhappy with their home country.

[zerostao]

There is no escape for those who are unhappy with their home country.

sure there is. there is no escape when one is unhappy with themself.

i liked his voting with his feet idea.

[chenping]

sure there is. there is no escape when one is unhappy with themself.

i liked his voting with his feet idea.

 

What's the difference between unhappiness with oneself and unhappiness with one's home country??

People do emigrate and it happens all the time when there is a looking forward to a new life or running away from

a war-torn situation. But when you are upset with the government of the day, then there is no escape.

[Reed]

I feel that when I get back here, you all will not be any closer to defining a Taoist , or the Tao or even what fa jing is.

 

Or find you all making a wiser choice of just sitting around and enjoying tea.

 

Idiot on the Path

 

lol you could be right

 

Good luck with your move and your retirement

Edited February 25, 2013 by Reed

[Mark Saltveit]

Shanlung -- what a fun task, happy searching!

 

I dislike cities, preferring hamlets and small towns and close to mountains or the sea.

Have you considered Leh, in Ladakh, India? Also McLeod Ganj, Manali, and other towns in the Himalayan foothills. Kerala is pretty wonderful all through, the most literate state in India due to land reform a century ago.

Peru, Ecuador and parts of California (esp. Lost Coast, Big Sur, north of Santa Cruz where Neil Young settled) can give you that magical mix of mountains AND the sea.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Longevity, Wisdom, and Prosperity Shan Lung!

[chenping]

While we are at it, how about the Hamptons, the South of France, or Tuscany? You can even kick things up a notch with a 100 footer Ferretti power yacht. Do it and the valley spirit never dies. Bet on it.

[Mark Saltveit]

Those places are citadels of wealth. Not only is that hard to afford, but often the people are rather less pleasant.

[chenping]

Poor people are better? Suffering is not necessarily good for the soul.

 

How about Detroit? There is a bar there called "The Sewer" where the Sugarman once played.