What defines a Daoist?

[Marblehead]

A Daoist is someone who doesn't know they are a Daoist.

I have told my story as to what brought me to Taoism elsewhere on this board. I was a Taoist before I even knew what a Taoist was. Therefore, back then I didn't call myself a Taoist. It was only after reading the TTC and The Chuang Tzu that I realized that this is what I was at the true nature of my essence.

 

And I really don't care if Lao Tzu was a real person or just a myth. It are the concepts of Taoist Philosophy that matter to me.

[taijistudent]

Yes, it should always be that. But too, being a Daoist is to be as natural as one can be. The other aspects of Daoism are natural for me.

Yes. Shakespeare wrote: "To thine ownself be true".

[chenping]

This narrative was unfortunately fed into by Confucian native informants during the early 20th century who wanted to adopt Western standards and were embarrassed by their "backwards" culture.

China has nuclear weapons, a technology invented by the West 60-70 years ago? Once upon a time, China was ahead of the West in warfare technology. They invented the crossbow and gunpowder. It took the West a thousand years before they caught up with the Chinese. And that was only the hardware. The two thousand year-old Chinese Art of War was used to defeat the USA in Vietnam. Desert Storm followed classic Sun Tzu's strategies, which are now required reading at West Point.

 

Philosophical Daoism espouses western values which seem at odds with Chinese thought that had produced the Dao De Jing and traditional Daoism. I would rather separate the two and study each based on its own respective merit rather than compare one against the other.

 

Traditional Daoism: What are your views on Mo Tzu's pakua that covers the eight directions of practice?

 

Philosophical Daoism: Is this the same as the philosophy in the NW direction of practice in the Pakua?

Edited March 3, 2013 by chenping

[Marblehead]

 

Philosophical Daoism espouses western values which seem at odds with Chinese thought that had produced the Dao De Jing and traditional Daoism. I would rather separate the two and study each based on its own respective merit rather than compare one against the other.

 

While I don't have the knowledge to state factually, I would suggest that you are very correct here. And this is why I rarely discuss any other aspect of Daoism other than the philosophical aspect.

 

I will suggest that the philosophical aspect is more universal than specifically Chinese whereas the other aspects are deeply rooted in Chinese culture and therefore are specifically Chinese.

[chenping]

I will suggest that the philosophical aspect is more universal than specifically Chinese whereas the other aspects are deeply rooted in Chinese culture and therefore are specifically Chinese.

 

I am not sure Philosophical Daoism (that Drifting Cloud referred to as coming from Barnes & Noble Daoists) is the same as the philosophical aspect (in the NW direction of the Pakua) of traditional Daoism as pointed out by Mo Tzu.

 

Each culture has its own way of seeing things. My grandmother finds bedroom scenes in western movies disturbing and unclothed women engaging in sex absolutely shocking. I am not talking about pornography but wholesome PG-13 stuff like "Thomas Crown Affair" or "Skyfall". So, I don't think western philosophical aspect of Daoism would feel comfortable on the family ancestral altar where she lights joss sticks for my grandfather every morning.

[Marblehead]

I am not sure ...

I'm not sure either. Just my understanding at this moment. Change could easily happen.

[drifting cloud]

 

China has nuclear weapons, a technology invented by the West 60-70 years ago? Once upon a time, China was ahead of the West in warfare technology. They invented the crossbow and gunpowder. It took the West a thousand years before they caught up with the Chinese. And that was only the hardware. The two thousand year-old Chinese Art of War was used to defeat the USA in Vietnam. Desert Storm followed classic Sun Tzu's strategies, which are now required reading at West Point.

 

Philosophical Daoism espouses western values which seem at odds with Chinese thought that had produced the Dao De Jing and traditional Daoism. I would rather separate the two and study each based on its own respective merit rather than compare one against the other.

 

Traditional Daoism: What are your views on Mo Tzu's pakua that covers the eight directions of practice?

 

Philosophical Daoism: Is this the same as the philosophy in the NW direction of practice in the Pakua?

 

Hi Chenping,

 

Putting things into a historical context always alters my perspective. Your reflections on Chinese history reminds me of an apocryphal statement attributed to Zhou Enlai; somebody asked him what he thought of the French Revolution and its values. His response was said to be "It's too soon to tell ." Whether he actually said this or not, I think it reflects the difference between a tradition that goes back millenia and the modern values which are not more than a few centuries old. Time will ultimately be the judge of what stands up and what doesn't. Geopolitical power now seems to be shifting back to Asia generally and China in particular; it will be interesting to see if this results in a revival of the old ways.

 

Re: Mo Tzu's comment, I haven't heard of using the bagua/pakua in this way before but in general I would say it makes sense and seems to cover the very broad range of activity that could be included in Daoist practice.

 

My guess is that much of "Philosophical Daoism" is rather different than the philosophical component of the NW direction. But one would have to look at specific examples of each to be sure.

[PrimordialLotus]

What is known as Buddhism, Taoism, etc. existed before the Indians, Chinese, etc; and it will exist (and not exist) after they have returned to it.

 

This oaf is arguing over manifestations.

 

Attempting to start a petty culture war; don't feed the troll.

Edited March 4, 2013 by PrimordialLotus

[chenping]

What is known as Buddhism, Taoism, etc. existed before the Indians, Chinese, etc; and it will exist (and not exist) after they have returned to it.

 

This oaf is arguing over manifestations.

 

Attempting to start a petty culture war; don't feed the troll.

 

There are only manifestations including our imagination that anything can predate us.

[chenping]

Re: Mo Tzu's comment, I haven't heard of using the bagua/pakua in this way before but in general I would say it makes sense and seems to cover the very broad range of activity that could be included in Daoist practice.

 

You know what? I think Daoism is a western concept that does not exist in the Chinese mind. Sure, there are temples of the Dao Religion in China as well as in other parts of the world where the Chinese have settled but I am not sure that they have anything to do with the Dao De Jing. The Christian Bible, unlike the Dao De Jing, was deliberately put together for the specific purpose of providing a basis for a theology.

 

 

My guess is that much of "Philosophical Daoism" is rather different than the philosophical component of the NW direction. But one would have to look at specific examples of each to be sure.

 

On the contrary, I think Philosophical Daoism and the NW direction of Pakau practice are fundamentally the same. Ok, I will provide you an example.

 

The Dao De Jing is one of many ancient texts of the Chinese elites, really smart guys whose interest in these classical works had nothing to do with everyday life in China other than to shape and govern it in accord with Heaven. It is literature for masters of the universe: Emperors and their advisors. I don't think Sun Tzu or Mencius would find Philosophical Daoism appealing.

 

 

"Philosophical Daoism", like the philosophical component of the NW direction of the Pakua, provides comfort for all under Heaven when the idiots with its Mandate screw up.

[ChiDragon]

Hey Tataaki,

 

I don't know if anyone responded to you about this. My apologies if this is a repeat. It is from Chapter 42. Here is the Chinese text:

 

道生一。

一生二。

二生三。

三生萬物。

Tao engenders One.

One engenders Two.

Two engender Three.

Three engender all things.

 

Chapter 42 indicates that Tao(道) is invisible and formless before anything else. Then, Tao made itself visible becomes the One. One splits into Two become yin and yang. The combination of yin and yang to form chi. Chi is the primordial natural force. Chi has a tremendous potential power to create and vitalize all things. All things comprise of the Three which are the yin/yang and chi, in order, to be vitalized.

[ChiDragon]

Back to the OP...

How does a Taoist should behave....??? May be this will have to define what a Taoist is....!!!

[三江源]

.

Edited March 18, 2015 by 三江源

[ChiDragon]

This is about it.

 

The only problem is for those that dont do practice, finding your own self... welll.. where on earth would you look?

 

What kind of practice can you do to find oneself....???

[taijistudent]

This is about it.

 

The only problem is for those that dont do practice, finding your own self... welll.. where on earth would you look?

We are all practicing in life in different ways and in our different practices we are searching, learning, creating and sharing. Why do we chart different journeys? A topic for another discussion maybe. The Hindu stories call it the Maya-Lila (the Hidden Play). Play is a both a verb and a noun.

[taijistudent]

 

What kind of practice can you do to find oneself....???

I believe it is a practice of listening. There are probably many signals and many signs that one can use as signposts. For me, I use my health and my sleep for sources for these signals and I try to learn to listen. As I get older I believe my listening becomes more sensitive to the signals.

Edited March 7, 2013 by taijistudent

[ChiDragon]

I believe it is a practice of listening. There are probably many signals and many signs that one can use as signposts. For me, I use my health and my sleep for sources for these signals and I try to learn to listen. As I get older I believe my listening becomes more sensitive to the signals.

 

So, by the "practice of listening" which is the intuition to monitor your body, in order, to take action to maintain yourself in the state of homeostasis. Practice of listening is only a procedural action, but performing different methods to maintaining the state of homeostasis is the actual practice. No.....???

[taijistudent]

 

So, by the "practice of listening" which is the intuition to monitor your body, in order, to take action to maintain yourself in the state of homeostasis. Practice of listening is only a procedural action, but performing different methods to maintaining the state of homeostasis is the actual practice. No.....???

In a way it is all practice. It is for me difficult to draw a bright line between practice and non-practice. If I was to draw a line, I would say that the duration between dreams one might consider non-practice. Listening is but a type of practice that steers me on a journey that is true to myself. There are a multitude of ways.

[ChiDragon]

 

 

Hello everyone!

 

My question is - what concepts does one need to accept to call himself a Daoist?

There many categories of Taoists due to the level of practice or what they want to be acquired. It would require a long discussion from a Chinese view. It is not a matter of accepting a concept to be a Taoist. It is a matter that one must practice the Taoist religion, in order, to be called as a Taoist. Of course, this is only the Chinese point of view.

- But what does practicing the religion include? I see Lao Zi, the Three Oure Ones and the Eight Immortals as worthy of worship. I also want to practice Neidan, meditation and internal martial arts. I would really much like to be a true Daoist, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, that's why I ask for help

 

 

Sorry, I didn't know there are so many unanswered questions. These questions require long explanations. I can only do them one at a time.

 

- But what does practicing the religion include? I would really much like to be a true Daoist, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, that's why I ask for help."

 

First of all, a true Taoist is one who dedicate his full life by seclusion in a Taoist shrine(道觀), up in the mountain, where there is close to Nature. The highest realm for a true Taoist is to be an immortal. It may be considered integrating oneself with Nature. To be an immortal, a Taoist will practice Chi Kung to preserve his life for longevity. The highest form of Chi Kung, in the Taoist world, is the alchemy or neidan. The reason that Taoist called it neidan is a long story.

 

The requirement for a true Taoist is to practice the Taoist religion 24/7 in a shrine. A true Taoist does not have a family to attend to as a celibate. However, there are Taoists who do have a family to attend to may be called part time Taoists. A part time Taoist only practice the religion eight hours a day in a shrine then goes back home in the evening.

 

After what has been said, before I go any further, do you still want to a True Taoist....???

 

Edited March 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

 

 

There is also the difference between philosophical and religious Daoism, which sounds like a Western misconception.

This is not a western misconception. It is a Chinese conception which where the westerners got the idea from.

- But what's the main difference? They believe the same thing, but the philosophical side doesn't worship Gods?

 

I believe every Daoist is partially both religious/spiritual and philosophical.

In the western point of view, it may be a 'yes'. However, in a Chinese point of view, the definition of a Taoist is one who practice the religion but may only follow some of the principles in the TTC. Those Chinese who only study the principles in the TTC without any religious intention are just scholars. The definition of Taoism for westerners is very inclusive. Any notion regarding to Tao was considered to be Taoism. The Chinese are specially separate the Taoist religion and philosophy in a distinctive manner.

- So one who accepts some Taoist concepts and incorporates them in their own life and worldview, their own "personal philosophy", can be seen as a "real" daoist? Even from the Chinese point of view?

 

 

Please keen in mind, I am only speaking from a Chinese point of view.

 

The main difference are not believing in the same thing. The philosophical side are scholars and atheists who just study the concepts or principles of Tao Te Ching. The religious side are those who interpret the Tao Te Ching as dogma and create their own deities to worship. Therefore, from the Chinese point of view, one who accepts some Taoist concepts and incorporates them in their own life and worldview, their own "personal philosophy", can be seen as a "real" scholar. Only one who practice the Taoist religion are considered as a "real" Taoist.

 

Edited March 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Much like Christianity having ' real christians ' and 'real good people' which are overlapping subsets.

[dynamictao]

 

Please keen in mind, I am only speaking from a Chinese point of view.

 

The main difference are not believing in the same thing. The philosophical side are scholars and atheists who just study the concepts or principles of Tao Te Ching. The religious side are those who interpret the Tao Te Ching as dogma and create their own deities to worship. Therefore, from the Chinese point of view, one who accepts some Taoist concepts and incorporates them in their own life and worldview, their own "personal philosophy", can be seen as a "real" scholar. Only one who practice the Taoist religion are considered as a "real" Taoist.

 

 

If you Lao-tzu as a god, then it is a religious Taoist; if you treat Lao-tzu as a philosopher, then you are a philosopher.

It is unavoidable that a religious Taoist mat claim both, but it is rarely possible for a "Tao philosopher" to claim to be a "religious Taoist." Maybe, in the early days, people do not believe Tao as a philosophy, so both are lumped into the word Taoism.

 

I get frustrated that I have to explain to my friends that I am not a "Taoist" because I cannot invoke any power from any god and I know nothing about the religious Taoist rituals. My work on Tao is purely on its philosophical content of the Tao Te Ching as I am interested in philosophy in general (Buddhist and Greek especially and some modern Western thoughts).

 

My friend (a professor) gave me a quote: "The difference between Tao philosophy and Tao religion is like the difference between dog and hot dog." Such as quote is not appropriate, but it shows the frustration about the confusion. It is pretty clear that I am not a Taoist, according to my use of the word.

Edited March 14, 2013 by dynamictao

[ChiDragon]

If you Lao-tzu as a god, then it is a religious Taoist; if you treat Lao-tzu as a philosopher, then you are a philosopher.

It is unavoidable that a religious Taoist mat claim both, but it is rarely possible for a "Tao philosopher" to claim to be a "religious Taoist." Maybe, in the early days, people do not believe Tao as a philosophy, so both are lumped into the word Taoism.

 

I get frustrated that I have to explain to my friends that I am not a "Taoist" because I cannot invoke any power from any god and I know nothing about the religious Taoist rituals. My work on Tao is purely on its philosophical content of the Tao Te Ching as I am interested in philosophy in general (Buddhist and Greek especially and some modern Western thoughts).

 

My friend (a professor) gave me a quote: "The difference between Tao philosophy and Tao religion is like the difference between dog and hot." Such as quote is not appropriate, but it shows the frustration about the confusion. It is pretty clear that I am not a Taoist, according to my use of the word.

 

Dynamictao.....

 

The Chinese has a big distinction in the Tao terminology between 道家 and 道教. There is also another term called 道學 which is "Taology", the study of Tao; but there is no such word as "Taology" in English.

 

A Chinese has no problem distinguishing the terms 道家 and 道教. 道家 are scholars who are mainly concerned with the study the true meanings of the principles of the Tao Te Ching, and 道教 is a religion. Based what I have gathered from the internet, It is the westerners that do not wish to separate the two by summing them up as Taoism. They make the definition of the term "Taoism" is very broad. Thus one must explain which side one is on, 道家 and 道教. Hence, that falls into the dilemma in the last part of your post.

 

If you think like a Chinese, a Taoist can be a 道士, one who practice the Tao religion. From the term 道士, right away, a Chinese has no problem with that. However, the meaning of "Taoist" to a westerner is very broad and inclusive. Like you said, it would be a big frustration for a Chinese to communicate with a westerner because the same old thing has to be repeated over and over. Indeed, It was frustrating.

Edited March 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dynamictao]

Correction:

 

My friend (a professor) gave me a quote: "The difference between Tao philosophy and Tao religion is like the difference between dog and hot dog." Such as quote is not appropriate, but it shows the frustration about the confusion. It is pretty clear that I am not a Taoist, according to my use of the word.

[Stosh]

It is just a label ,

if your grouping puts you 'out',

then you can say you are out

If your grouping puts you 'In'

then you are in

 

All groupings are arbitrary

 

I havent done a survey of it ( which would be science to some - and therefore worthy of scorn by others )

But Im pretty sure even that simple statement escapes many folks who consider themselves 'Taoists' in the religious sense ,,,

because they havent heard it from a respected person they consider 'IN'

And so I give no quarter to them for deciding what taoism is

 

You approach from a scholarly angle , which I figure to be the original intent ,

(as CD does often ) but I personally consider practical application to be core.

( why should anyone take much trouble to describe things that have no application?)

 

To overshoot the mark misses as cleanly as to undershoot it.

 

Whether mystical construals eventually overwhelm that perspective

(and so you eventually believe that the religious angle has greater credibility

bestowing some superior right to the term "Taoism") , thats up to you.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Stosh