What defines a Daoist?

[ChiDragon]

Stosh.....

Please don't take it the wrong way. I know where you stand; and I know you are trying to be impartial and objective since we have begun to discuss the subject. However, one just cant see things in any other way without crossing the other side of the line.

[Marblehead]

I know that there are lines in the sand but I do try hard to stay in my little box in this regard. I do understand the folks who would see it as all-encompassing. I have no problem with that, it's just not my game.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Stosh.....

 

Please don't take it the wrong way. I know where you stand; and I know you are trying to be impartial and objective since we have begun to discuss the subject. However, one just cant see things in any other way without crossing the other side of the line.

Yessir , thats probably right.

[silas]

 

Please keen in mind, I am only speaking from a Chinese point of view.

 

The main difference are not believing in the same thing. The philosophical side are scholars and atheists who just study the concepts or principles of Tao Te Ching. The religious side are those who interpret the Tao Te Ching as dogma and create their own deities to worship. Therefore, from the Chinese point of view, one who accepts some Taoist concepts and incorporates them in their own life and worldview, their own "personal philosophy", can be seen as a "real" scholar. Only one who practice the Taoist religion are considered as a "real" Taoist.

 

 

Classical Taoists, who follow a religious form of Taoism based only on the precepts in the TaoTeChing, ChuangTzu and LiehTzu (the same books in philosophical Taoism), may worship any god they like, so long as the worship does not conflict with their inborn nature and destiny - because all of the gods are within tao. Therefore, for example, a Christian Taoist in the classical mode is a natural Christian. They do not sin nor struggle against sinning because it is not in their nature. Religious sect Taoists (like the monks of Complete Reality or Quanzhen) in the classical mode come to practice their forms of worship naturally too. If they struggle at all, it is because it is in their nature to struggle.

 

In classical Taoism, the gods live inside the Tao and are nurtured by the matrix energies of Great Yin/Great Yang. As our world is a collection of microcosms, so the deities preside over their own celestial microcosms. From the Principle Of Mutual Arising (TTC ch. 2), the matrix will one day collapse, and then all the gods and other entities within must return to Tao. It is one's evolved Te that returns to Tao, as part of Tao's own evolution (the real world is a manifestation of Tao energy and evolution is part of the real world and Tao itself).

 

Everything I've said above comes straight from the 3 classic texts. They are a consistent theology unto themselves. Classical Taoism is the most beautiful framework for an interfaith world I've ever seen. I think that people who read the classic texts only as philosophy don't see all the beauty.

[dawei]

The Chinese has a big distinction in the Tao terminology between 道家 and 道教.

 

When I traveled in Sichuan Province and visited some Daoist temples and asked them the difference they all said the same thing: None.

 

What time period was each term first used and for what?

[ChiDragon]

dawei...

You should have asked a scholar instead of the Taoists from the temples. The Taoists in the Taoist religion do not pay much attention to the definitions of the terms. They tend to claim anything that is relating to Tao into their beliefs. These terms are still holding now and the past.

Here are two good references.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%81%93%E5%AE%B6

http://www.confucius2000.com/taoist/hldjjdjl.htm

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

dawei...

 

You should have asked a scholar instead of the Taoists from the temples. The Taoists in the Taoist religion do not pay much attention to the definitions of the terms. They tend to claim anything that is relating to Tao into their beliefs. These terms are still holding now and the past.

 

Here are two good references.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%81%93%E5%AE%B6

 

http://www.confucius2000.com/taoist/hldjjdjl.htm

 

 

I hear you but we're just proving what DynamicTao said; depends who you ask... and if we ask someone in more modern times, it is used how they want to use it.

 

My research, if I go back to original sources, shows that Dao Jiao was used prior to Dao Jia:

 

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/daojiao.html

Daojiao 道教 (tao-chiao) literally means “Teachings of the Dao.” The term daojiao was already being employed in the chapter “Feiru” 非儒 (“Against Confucianism” ) of the Mozi 墨子 (Book of Master Mo). In the Mozi, a Warring States (402-221 BCE) text, daojiao designates the teachings of the earlier sage-kings concerning the dao.

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%81%93%E6%95%99

 

 

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/daojia.html

Daojia 道家 (tao-chia) literally means “Family of the Dao,” but is sometimes rendered as “School of the Dao.” In terms of contextualized meanings, daojia is an Early Han dynasty (206 BCE-8 CE) bibliographic category, which was used as a taxonomic classification for texts.

 

 

It seems to me that the more original meaning has to do with:

Dao Jiao - The study of Dao

Dao Jia - Those thinkers who studied the Dao and the text they wrote

 

In which case, it is seems that originally, the phrases really had very little difference.

 

So we're all left with picking and choosing what source, time, or person we ask.

[chenping]

 

First of all, a true Taoist is one who dedicate his full life by seclusion in a Taoist shrine(道觀), up in the mountain, where there is close to Nature. The highest realm for a true Taoist is to be an immortal. It may be considered integrating oneself with Nature. To be an immortal, a Taoist will practice Chi Kung to preserve his life for longevity. The highest form of Chi Kung, in the Taoist world, is the alchemy or neidan. The reason that Taoist called it neidan is a long story.

 

The requirement for a true Taoist is to practice the Taoist religion 24/7 in a shrine. A true Taoist does not have a family to attend to as a celibate. However, there are Taoists who do have a family to attend to may be called part time Taoists. A part time Taoist only practice the religion eight hours a day in a shrine then goes back home in the evening.

 

After what has been said, before I go any further, do you still want to a True Taoist....???

 

Gorillas dedicate their full lives up in the mountains close to Nature. Can we accept them as true Taoists?

 

How come we deny other animals from Daoism? Are they not also sentient beings just like us? I cannot discuss Philosophical Daoism with my dog any more can I discuss anything with a deaf mute. But that doesn't mean that a dog is any lesser than a human being. Sometimes, my doberman would come up to where I am sitting on the couch and look at me. She is so cute. I would cup her face in my hands and look into her eyes. She knows my next move. Why can't she be a Taoist too?

[Marblehead]

How come we deny other animals from Daoism?

I think I have never done this. And I would agree that other animals are more Tao (naural) than we humans are.

[silas]

Gorillas dedicate their full lives up in the mountains close to Nature. Can we accept them as true Taoists?

 

How come we deny other animals from Daoism? Are they not also sentient beings just like us? I cannot discuss Philosophical Daoism with my dog any more can I discuss anything with a deaf mute. But that doesn't mean that a dog is any lesser than a human being. Sometimes, my doberman would come up to where I am sitting on the couch and look at me. She is so cute. I would cup her face in my hands and look into her eyes. She knows my next move. Why can't she be a Taoist too?

 

Ffrom the Lieh Tzu:

 

The divine sages of the most ancient times knew the habits of all the myriad things, and interpreted the cries of all the different species; they called them together for meetings and gave them instructions, as though they were human beings. So the fact that the sages would meet the spirits and goblins first, next summon the human beings of the eight quarters, and finally assemble the birds and beasts and insects, implies that there are no great differences in mind and intelligence between living species. The divine sages knew that this was the case, and therefore in teaching they left out none of them.

 

LiehTzu ch. 2; Graham, Angus, The Book Of Lieh Tzu, pp. 53-54.

[ChiDragon]

Gorillas dedicate their full lives up in the mountains close to Nature. Can we accept them as true Taoists?

 

How come we deny other animals from Daoism? Are they not also sentient beings just like us? I cannot discuss Philosophical Daoism with my dog any more can I discuss anything with a deaf mute. But that doesn't mean that a dog is any lesser than a human being. Sometimes, my doberman would come up to where I am sitting on the couch and look at me. She is so cute. I would cup her face in my hands and look into her eyes. She knows my next move. Why can't she be a Taoist too?

 

First of all, a true Taoist is one who dedicate his full life by seclusion in a Taoist shrine(道觀), up in the mountain, where there is close to Nature. The highest realm for a true Taoist is to be an immortal. It may be considered integrating oneself with Nature. To be an immortal, a Taoist will practice Chi Kung to preserve his life for longevity. The highest form of Chi Kung, in the Taoist world, is the alchemy or neidan. The reason that Taoist called it neidan is a long story.

 

Did you miss something I said....???

[ChiDragon]

I hear you but we're just proving what DynamicTao said; depends who you ask... and if we ask someone in more modern times, it is used how they want to use it.

 

My research, if I go back to original sources, shows that Dao Jiao was used prior to Dao Jia:

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/daojiao.html

Daojiao 道教 (tao-chiao) literally means “Teachings of the Dao.” The term daojiao was already being employed in the chapter “Feiru” 非儒 (“Against Confucianism” ) of the Mozi 墨子 (Book of Master Mo). In the Mozi, a Warring States (402-221 BCE) text, daojiao designates the teachings of the earlier sage-kings concerning the dao.

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%81%93%E6%95%99

 

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/daojia.html

Daojia 道家 (tao-chia) literally means “Family of the Dao,” but is sometimes rendered as “School of the Dao.” In terms of contextualized meanings, daojia is an Early Han dynasty (206 BCE-8 CE) bibliographic category, which was used as a taxonomic classification for texts.

 

 

It seems to me that the more original meaning has to do with:

Dao Jiao - The study of Dao

Dao Jia - Those thinkers who studied the Dao and the text they wrote

 

In which case, it is seems that originally, the phrases really had very little difference.

 

So we're all left with picking and choosing what source, time, or person we ask.

 

It is true but, at that time, the "Dao" was referred as "morality". That was the teaching of Confucius before the "Tao" that was mentioned in the Tao Te Ching.

 

“Family of the Dao”, 道家, this is where your western mind kicks in which causing some misunderstanding.

 

The 家, in this case and in the Chinese language, it is equivalent to "...ist". For example, a scientist. Therefore, 道家 is Tao + ist = Taoist. 道家 means those who study the principles of Tao. All depends who you are talking to. To a Confucian, it is the "morality of conduct"; to the Tao scholar who studies the Tao Te Ching, it is the principles in the Tao Te Ching. Since we are in the TTB forum, it was understood that 道家, Taojia is referring to those who study the principles of the Tao Te Ching. Please keep this in mind, at all times, as long we are discussing the Tao in the TTB forum to avoid repeating ourselves with the unnecessary challenges, we are definitely not talking about the Dao that was referred to the Confucian philosophy. Indeed, this will save us lots of time for discussing something else.

 

Well, of course, there is room for additional explanations for you....!!!

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

“Family of the Dao”, 道家, this is where your western mind kicks in which causing some misunderstanding.

 

I did not say this. That is from the quote.

 

The 家, in this case and in the Chinese language, it is equivalent to "...ist". For example, a scientist. Therefore, 道家 is Tao + ist = Taoist. 道家 means those who study the principles of Tao.

 

This IS what I said. You just need to read more carefully.

 

 

Well, of course, there is room for additional explanations for you....!!!

 

I did not add anything. I simply said this:

 

 

It seems to me that the more original meaning has to do with:

Dao Jiao - The study of Dao

Dao Jia - Those thinkers who studied the Dao and the text they wrote

[ChiDragon]

I did not say this. That is from the quote.

Alright, to me, if I quote somebody which mean I agree with it. However, I wouldn't quote something that I don't believe in.

 

This IS what I said. You just need to read more carefully.

Sorry, somehow, the message didn't convey to me.

 

I did not add anything. I simply said this:

It seems to me that the more original meaning has to do with:

Dao Jiao - The study of Dao

Dao Jia - Those thinkers who studied the Dao and the text they wrote

 

It seems to me it is very vague. Somehow, your explanation was not very explicit.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[chenping]

 

First of all, a true Taoist is one who dedicate his full life by seclusion in a Taoist shrine(道觀), up in the mountain, where there is close to Nature. The highest realm for a true Taoist is to be an immortal. It may be considered integrating oneself with Nature. To be an immortal, a Taoist will practice Chi Kung to preserve his life for longevity. The highest form of Chi Kung, in the Taoist world, is the alchemy or neidan. The reason that Taoist called it neidan is a long story.

 

Did you miss something I said....???

 

I missed nothing.

 

A Taoist shrine can be either man-made or natural. Of all the people of religion communing with God in churches, temples and mosques, the Taoist should know better. Chuang Tzu would prefer the roof of the Taoist shrine to be the blue sky, and its floor the good earth carpeted with green grass. There are mind-blowing natural Taoist shrines in America. There is one called Big Sky Country in Wyoming. It will take your breath away.

 

Chi Kung can either come out of Chinese culture or - you got it! - Nature. All human knowledge comes from observation of Nature, and the Chinese are pretty good at learning this. But (Chinese) knowledge is one step removed from the mother lode: the eternal Way embodied by Nature. Animals breathe correct naturally. With lightning speed they strike faster in combat than any taichi master ever can. And I have never seen a Taoist meditate better than a majestic eagle sitting atop a dead tree, so motionless that even Chuang Tzu would approve.

 

I think I have never done this. And I would agree that other animals are more Tao (naural) than we humans are.

 

You'd better believe it, buddy. If being natural is the key element to being Taoist, then animals take the cake. Anyone who has read Animal Farm would understand that even pigs and fishes (the most dumb in the animal kingdom according tot the I Ching) have feelings too.

 

Ffrom the Lieh Tzu:

 

The divine sages of the most ancient times knew the habits of all the myriad things, and interpreted the cries of all the different species; they called them together for meetings and gave them instructions, as though they were human beings. So the fact that the sages would meet the spirits and goblins first, next summon the human beings of the eight quarters, and finally assemble the birds and beasts and insects, implies that there are no great differences in mind and intelligence between living species. The divine sages knew that this was the case, and therefore in teaching they left out none of them.

 

LiehTzu ch. 2; Graham, Angus, The Book Of Lieh Tzu, pp. 53-54.

 

I am not convinced that divine sages included other animals besides humans. Have you read Animal Farm? They don't trust humans who gripe endlessly about the Holocaust but think nothing of wholesale slaughter of other animals by the hundreds of millions every single day to make chicken nuggets and hamburgers. Even I don't trust humans. There is something wrong with people. They think one thing, say another and do something else. Absolutely no integrity.

[ChiDragon]

chenping.....
Thank you...!!!
I'll take you word for it.......................

Edited March 16, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I missed nothing.

Yes, you did...!!

 

A Taoist shrine can be either man-made or natural. Of all the people of religion communing with God in churches, temples and mosques, the Taoist should know better. Chuang Tzu would prefer the roof of the Taoist shrine to be the blue sky, and its floor the good earth carpeted with green grass. There are mind-blowing natural Taoist shrines in America. There is one called Big Sky Country in Wyoming. It will take your breath away.

 

A Taoist shrine is man-made. Period. I agree with what you said about Chuang Tzu but he is an atheist.

 

Chi Kung can either come out of Chinese culture or - you got it! - Nature. All human knowledge comes from observation of Nature, and the Chinese are pretty good at learning this. But (Chinese) knowledge is one step removed from the mother lode: the eternal Way embodied by Nature. Animals breathe correct naturally. With lightning speed they strike faster in combat than any taichi master ever can. And I have never seen a Taoist meditate better than a majestic eagle sitting atop a dead tree, so motionless that even Chuang Tzu would approve.

 

Chi Kung comes out of Chinese culture. However, it may have something to do with Nature but not from Nature.

 

The latter was regarding to animals are natural instincts. Humans do have breathing problem and do not have the physical strength as animals do because they are not animals. Tai Ji practitioners do have to imitate animals in breathing and move to strike with the lightning speed of light by nurture. In a way, you are right, observing Nature is by observing the habits of animals. Imitating animals is like integrating with Nature.

 

You'd better believe it, buddy. If being natural is the key element to being Taoist, then animals take the cake. Anyone who has read Animal Farm would understand that even pigs and fishes (the most dumb in the animal kingdom according tot the I Ching) have feelings too.

 

I have no idea that the Yi Jing had said that.

[Rara]

one of the things that defines a daoist is a lack of attraction to labels. so a daoist is unconcerned about being labelled as 'a daoist'.. such a person does not need to self define, so there will be no need for lots of "I" statements and self describing.. you will have to be subtle to find these people.

 

I like this. It's the whole reason I "became a Taoist" lol....I just wanted to be ME!

[ChiDragon]

Nobody is really putting a label on anybody. It was only a convenience for the sake of discussion. It is just like Lao Tze was reluctantly called Tao as "Tao" for the purpose of identification....

[silas]

>>one of the things that defines a daoist is a lack of attraction to labels. so a daoist is unconcerned about being labelled as 'a daoist'.. such a person

>>does not need to self define, so there will be no need for lots of "I" statements and self describing.. you will have to be subtle to find these people.

 

I like this. It's the whole reason I "became a Taoist" lol....I just wanted to be ME!

 

In classical Taoism, Lao Tzu self defines in subtle ways to remember who he is, because it is too easy to forget who you are:

 

 

Like a high wind that never ceases.

The multitude all have a purpose.

I alone am foolish and uncouth.

I alone am different from others

And value being fed by the mother.

TTC ch. 20; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching

 

Were I possessed of the least knowledge, I would, when walking on the great way, fear only paths that lead astray.

The great way is easy, yet people prefer by-paths.

TTC ch. 53; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching

 

When you remember who you are, then you can accede to labels and ignore them:

 

I believe I no longer bother with being a man of wisdom and sagacity. If you call me a bull yesterday, I would have agreed with you; if you had called me a horse, I would have agreed with you too.... I yield out of my natural bent; I do not yield for the sake of yielding.

ChuangTzu ch. 13; Wang, Rongpei, Zhuangzi, p. 215

[shanlung]

There is no escape for those who are unhappy with their home country.

So those who left their country of birth from war or prosecution , or because they want a better future have no escape.

 

With that righteous mealy mouth reply, I decided the best place for chenping in my life will be at the bottom of the dustbin of ignore. I was already thinking of that before on reading the self adorating stuff he wrote of himself and the innuedoes of his wealth.

 

It might amuse folks here that Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore commissioned another report from a think tank stuffed by well paid monkeys of his chosing that Singaporeans are indeed the happiest people on this planet. LKY has plenty of money. He amassed from the hapless Singaporeans 700+ Billion USD into Singapore Sovereign Fund, to use as he please.

 

I think Chenping was one of those in that think tank or similar.

 

It was a good 3 weeks in quietude in Taiping. I spend much of that by the lakeside or up the 1000 meter Bukit Larut or Maxwell hills overlooking Taiping.

You all here had been the first to be notified by me. I wrote of the start of that journey to the rest of my birdie/beastie friends a day later, which meant I was already there in Taiping, and a bit further than what I wrote here before I went.

The start of my next chapter

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141112.html

 

I never got to know the Tao better. Maybe I tried too hard to find the Tao and therefore could not find it that way.

I found Taiping to be a delightful happy town. A great place to be in with cost of housing and good food, a fraction the cost of Singapore.

 

But I still have many other places to check out in other parts of the world. I will be around a few weeks to feed the kitties and to take care of their litter. And to decide where next should I go in my search, of whatever I am searching for.

 

I came back to find that neither are folks here that much closer to determining what is the Tao or Taoist.

Perhaps we all ask the wrong questions.

 

Problem is that I do not know the right questions to ask either as I am just the idiot.

 

The Idiot on the Path

[chenping]

So those who left their country of birth from war or prosecution , or because they want a better future have no escape.

 

People do emigrate all the time and it is possible to leave the home country. Not in your case, though.

 

With that righteous mealy mouth reply, I decided the best place for chenping in my life will be at the bottom of the dustbin of ignore. I was already thinking of that before on reading the self adorating stuff he wrote of himself and the innuedoes of his wealth.

 

My wealth? I wish. I don't have $20 billion; not even $1 billion which, to me, is the defining line between the wealthy and those living from hand to mouth. I live every moment wishing that I could be wealthy. Without wealth, there is no evidence of Tao.

 

It might amuse folks here that Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore commissioned another report from a think tank stuffed by well paid monkeys of his chosing that Singaporeans are indeed the happiest people on this planet. LKY has plenty of money. He amassed from the hapless Singaporeans 700+ Billion USD into Singapore Sovereign Fund, to use as he please.

 

Lee Kuan Yew has the Tao. To my mind, he is the wealthiest and most powerful man in the world. None of Forbes top billionaires has a security detail comprising F16 strike fighters guarding his safety and possessions. He is a strong winner in my book. Singaporeans are no more capable than Malaysians and Lee Kuan Yew made Singapore a reality. I wish more Singaporeans would come forward to contribute to the Tao of Lee Kuan Yew.

 

I think Chenping was one of those in that think tank or similar.

 

I would love to be in that think tank. Singapore could lead the way, be a laboratory for developing the best society for mankind.

[PrimordialLotus]

There are only manifestations including our imagination that anything can predate us.

 

Well said!

[shanlung]

So those who left their country of birth from war or prosecution , or because they want a better future have no escape.

 

With that righteous mealy mouth reply, I decided the best place for chenping in my life will be at the bottom of the dustbin of ignore. I was already thinking of that before on reading the self adorating stuff he wrote of himself and the innuedoes of his wealth.

 

It might amuse folks here that Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore commissioned another report from a think tank stuffed by well paid monkeys of his chosing that Singaporeans are indeed the happiest people on this planet. LKY has plenty of money. He amassed from the hapless Singaporeans 700+ Billion USD into Singapore Sovereign Fund, to use as he please.

 

I think Chenping was one of those in that think tank or similar.

 

It was a good 3 weeks in quietude in Taiping. I spend much of that by the lakeside or up the 1000 meter Bukit Larut or Maxwell hills overlooking Taiping.

You all here had been the first to be notified by me. I wrote of the start of that journey to the rest of my birdie/beastie friends a day later, which meant I was already there in Taiping, and a bit further than what I wrote here before I went.

The start of my next chapter

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141112.html

 

I never got to know the Tao better. Maybe I tried too hard to find the Tao and therefore could not find it that way.

I found Taiping to be a delightful happy town. A great place to be in with cost of housing and good food, a fraction the cost of Singapore.

 

But I still have many other places to check out in other parts of the world. I will be around a few weeks to feed the kitties and to take care of their litter. And to decide where next should I go in my search, of whatever I am searching for.

 

I came back to find that neither are folks here that much closer to determining what is the Tao or Taoist.

Perhaps we all ask the wrong questions.

 

Problem is that I do not know the right questions to ask either as I am just the idiot.

 

The Idiot on the Path

 

My report on Taiping meditations and other stuff

Taiping thoughts //Camera malfunction at NanHwaShi//Combat Taijichuan -some notes

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141331.html

[shanlung]

Prior to my next mounting on the back of ox, or modern day equivalent, in a few days time, I kind of wrote a precursor to my next search of the Tao even if I do not know how the Tao looks like or taste like or feel like. But since everything is Tao, maybe what I wrote below is part of the canon of Tao. And if you want to ask, I cannot explain it to you either.

 

With a few extra words here to put what I wrote into context.

 

I last saw Yingshiong about 5 years ago in Jurong Bird Park after I gave him up there a year prior. I flew back from Brisbane, Australia just to walk him into Jurong Bird Park. I and my wife took a lot of photos on that handover. I could not write that handover as that required me to turn the playback in my mind. It was so painful to me that I turned it off. I tried about 6 times. Thinking it would be less painful. It was incredible how that tiny songbird captured my heart and how much he was a companion to me. I rejected offers of blank checks for him so he could fly free in the big aviaries there. Folks could not understand a very happy song bird who could fly freely and interacted the whole day with one who loved him could outsing any other prize birds kept only in a cage.

I think I could write that handover now. But sadly, with the fading of the pain, my memories of that no longer that clear now. Maybe thats why the pain faded.
With memories not that sharp, neither do I feel like writing that event.




and some of his songs
shamasong2

Here is a bitter sweet report of him , that might be of him, that I just wrote

New camera at Jurong Bird Park // Shades of Yingshiong
shanlung: New camera at Jurong Bird Park // Shades of Yingshiong

 

 

Taoistic Idiot