What defines a Daoist?

[Phi92]

Did I wrote this? I don't think so. I am only saying that intellectualizing the definition of a Daoist has nothing to do with being a Daoist. If you say you are one, I am fine with it, and at some point I envy you.

 

I believe a Daoist is someone who researches the Dao, thinks about it, incorporates it in his/her daily life and practices it by one form or another (qigong, meditation, taijiquan etc.).

 

I'm not sure if I can call myself a Daoist yet. Perhaps only in the sense that that's the philosophy/spiritual path that I currently associate with the most. But calling myself a full Daoist, whatever that it, would be rather pretentious.

 

I guess I'm just a researcher and I experiment and try different paths. Daoism is just the most personal and direct to me, something I've experienced, partially, but still better than nothing at all. I also find it logical and rational, so both sides are satisfied - the intuitive, spiritual side and the rational/logical side.

[ChiDragon]

I believe a Daoist is someone who researches the Dao, thinks about it, incorporates it in his/her daily life and practices it by one form or another (qigong, meditation, taijiquan etc.).

 

I'm not sure if I can call myself a Daoist yet. Perhaps only in the sense that that's the philosophy/spiritual path that I currently associate with the most. But calling myself a full Daoist, whatever that it, would be rather pretentious.

 

I guess I'm just a researcher and I experiment and try different paths. Daoism is just the most personal and direct to me, something I've experienced, partially, but still better than nothing at all. I also find it logical and rational, so both sides are satisfied - the intuitive, spiritual side and the rational/logical side.

A Taoist do not research for Tao but to learn and follow the principles of tao from the TTC. The TTC will tell you what Tao is. Tao has mult-idefinition. If you have learnt all the definitions of Tao. Then you will know Tao and its principles.

 

When you are following and practicing the principles of Tao, then you will become a Taoist.

Edited February 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Phi92]

A Taoist do not research for Tao but to learn and follow the principles of tao from the TTC. The TTC will tell you what Tao is. Tao has mult-idefinition. If you have learnt all the definitions of Tao. Then you will know Tao and its principles.

 

When you are following and practicing the principles of Tao, then you will become a Taoist.

 

Again, I think you can research, think and experience at the same time.

 

Giving up anything is, I believe, counterproductive.

[ChiDragon]

Again, I think you can research, think and experience at the same time.

 

Giving up anything is, I believe, counterproductive.

Please my post again to see if you can read the hidden message.

[Phi92]

Please my post again to see if you can read the hidden message.

 

I understand it like this: first learn about the Dao and its concepts, to have a clearer image, then engage into practice to experience it and become a Daoist?

[ChiDragon]

I understand it like this: first learn about the Dao and its concepts, to have a clearer image, then engage into practice to experience it and become a Daoist?

Yes, but first learn about the Dao and its concepts from the Tao Te Ching which is origin of the source.

[Phi92]

Yes, but first learn about the Dao and its concepts from the Tao Te Ching which is origin of the source.

 

I am in the progress of doing it

 

Perhaps I'm a bit too excited about it, so I am eager to discuss.

[Basher]

Agreed.

 

I know that you intended this as humor, but it actually hits on a very important aspect of Daoism.

 

Thinker, If anyone asks 'm going to pretend that I meant my post to allude to all of the points you've mentioned.

 

 

Phi92, I agree that just because a person goes to Church on Sunday, or Mosque on Friday, etc doesn't make them a nicer / better person.

As some seem to think that "being good" one day a week, gives them leeway to act like a Prat the rest of the week !!

 

I know some Christians that will only trust fellow Christians, I know some Hindus & some Muslims that will likewise only deal with those of the same faith. But I've also met criminals of all creeds & faiths.

[dawei]

I understand it like this: first learn about the Dao and its concepts, to have a clearer image, then engage into practice to experience it and become a Daoist?

 

I think as you have suggested earlier, their may not be a true order and a varied path is good and how I view it.

 

But if I had to share some thought on steps (which may be concurrent in some respects).

1. Drop all distinctions and labels; start with anything ending in 'ist' or 'ism'.

2. While you are already connected to the universe, it may not feel or be experienced as such. Keep in mind the three realms of Physical, energetic, and spiritual.

3. Enjoy the physical here and now; a cup of tea or enjoy a walk or savor some aspect.

4. Entertain the energy. Develop the lower dan tian, ground downward to earth energy (Yin) and expand outward/upward to universal energy (Yang). Connect internally to your innate where you can communicate with your energy and all things outside.

5. Enliven your spirit. Develop the upper dan tian and open yourself to the state where Dao originates.

6. Of course, if your like me, you read along the way but it is not really teaching you as much as it is history looking back at you on some level. It may offer ways to explain what you experience and come to know.

7. Smile back on each step.

[ChiDragon]

I am in the progress of doing it

 

Perhaps I'm a bit too excited about it, so I am eager to discuss.

I'm looking forward to hear what are your new thoughts....

[Phi92]

I think as you have suggested earlier, their may not be a true order and a varied path is good and how I view it.

 

But if I had to share some thought on steps (which may be concurrent in some respects).

1. Drop all distinctions and labels; start with anything ending in 'ist' or 'ism'.

2. While you are already connected to the universe, it may not feel or be experienced as such. Keep in mind the three realms of Physical, energetic, and spiritual.

3. Enjoy the physical here and now; a cup of tea or enjoy a walk or savor some aspect.

4. Entertain the energy. Develop the lower dan tian, ground downward to earth energy (Yin) and expand outward/upward to universal energy (Yang). Connect internally to your innate where you can communicate with your energy and all things outside.

5. Enliven your spirit. Develop the upper dan tian and open yourself to the state where Dao originates.

6. Of course, if your like me, you read along the way but it is not really teaching you as much as it is history looking back at you on some level. It may offer ways to explain what you experience and come to know.

7. Smile back on each step.

 

Thanks, that's a really nice answer, made me smile indeed!

 

My thoughts are:

1. Drop all distinctions and labels that hinder you.

For instance: "I'm Daoist, so I won't do that" - That's wrong and you need to drop it then.

But, if you are more inclined to say: "I'm Daoist, but I love this as well and I will try it", in other words - it doesn't hinder you to do something, then you are free to "label" yourself. I also think having such a label can be personal and develop a connection to something you love, like Daoism. The part is not letting it hinder you, rather than rejecting it. It also helps conveying thoughts and communication

 

2. Being connected with nature is probably one of the dearest things to me in Daoism. I love it.

 

3. I do, but not right now as I'm too busy with college ... My girlfriend and I plan to meditate in nature, walk, run and do Wing Chun together outdoors when spring comes

 

4. and 5. - I'm getting more and more interested and involved in meditation and Dantian. It is a marvelous experience

 

I smile a lot, maybe too much. Notice the number of here!

[Phi92]

I'm looking forward to hear what are your new thoughts....

 

Thank you ChiDragon, you are kind!

[dawei]

1. Drop all distinctions and labels that hinder you.

For instance: "I'm Daoist, so I won't do that" - That's wrong and you need to drop it then.

But, if you are more inclined to say: "I'm Daoist, but I love this as well and I will try it", in other words - it doesn't hinder you to do something, then you are free to "label" yourself. I also think having such a label can be personal and develop a connection to something you love, like Daoism. The part is not letting it hinder you, rather than rejecting it. It also helps conveying thoughts and communication

 

Although it is not about rejecting anything nor worrying about whether it hinders or not. Its applying the 'empty' aspect at the start rather than getting advice down the road to 'empty' onself... you will be amazed at the difference if you do it as the first step rather than later finding out you're trying to apply it later when you've already decided not to empty certain ideas.

 

The primacy of emptiness in the DDJ may have a good application at the start... of course this is only my opinion and will be good to hear more about your journey and outcome.

[RiverSnake]

IME sharing is great.....but if what you are sharing does not come from any depth of experience then you're probably doing more harm than good and are likely...unbeknownst to yourself spewing intellectual nonsense. Practice first talk later.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[dwai]

 

Maybe too vague ^^'

 

I guess everyone see's it as they want it. And that's a good thing, a philosophy, religion, spiritual path, whatever should be personal

 

I'm very happy to see what you all have to say and to discuss your opinions!

 

But it is very simple actually...learn to sense the flow of energy all around, feel the rhythm and harmonize. Energy (chi) is primordial, intellect is artificial.

 

A daoist learns to sense this chi and resonates with it (his chi changes frequency to match that of dao). Once in harmony things will happen as they should. If one tries too hard it is not harmony. If one doesn't try then too it is not harmony. When it happens effortlessly, harmony happens. That is wu Wei...doing without doing.

 

Eventually no self no other...dao!

[kaaazuo]

Agreed.

 

I know that you intended this as humor, but it actually hits on a very important aspect of Daoism. A lot of the DDJ seems to have been written as an anti-Confucian sociopolitical manifesto, in response to how the Confucian government of the day was mismanaging things, and hurting a lot of people in the process. I see little in it to suggest that the author(s) would have rejected the idea of smacking some heads to make things better, if that could have been made to work. The rampant pacifism that we see today in Daoism seems to have come from a number of sources, including early borrowings from Buddhism, later pressures from a Chinese government that won't tolerate the presence of any organization that it sees as a potential political threat, and deliberate spin from the Western "New Age" movement, which is determinedly pacifistic and has been insinuating itself into Daoism in the West for many years. I believe that many people who consider themselves to be Daoist today are really misplaced Buddhists (a genuinely pacifistic religion), or at least would be happier in one of the syncretic religious traditions that explicitly combines elements of Buddhism and Taoism. Unfortunately, contemporary Daoism has drifted so far from its classical (roughly pre-200 AD) roots that it seems to have become such a syncretism itself. it would be nice to see a new offshoot of Daoism form; one that rejected the post-Classical elements of the Daoist cannon (which is most of it) and returned to a more originalist view, but I can't see that happening any time soon. The Chinese government certainly wouldn't allow it, and I suspect that other authoritarian Asian governments would probably react similarly. Daoism in the West is not heading in this direction, and even if it were, it still lacks the organization and the strength to create such a movement.

 

Hi Thinker,

 

Interesting analysis. What would be "a more originalist view" ?

 

"Organization" and "movement" imply mobilization of people for a purpose. Is this what you mean?

[Stigweard]

How can you say about quality of tea when you do not have the sniffer bowls above the tea cup.

Good tea must be appreciated together with the aroma, and sniffer bowls must be present for that.

 

Unless your tea is meant for peasant. In which case I qualify cum laude.

I even happily wrote about my

Being a peasant

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/135250.html

 

 

 

Idiotic Taoist.

 

Ahh ...

 

Infusing my soul

Tranquility in a cup

Divine, sublime ... tea

 

 

 

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

Seems to be so much added to this thing, since some old guy left a few pages at the guard shack/ferry both or whatever it was, a couple thousand years ago. Do you think Lao Tzu wondered if he was a taoist, or if he should be? Maybe he didn't even practice what he preached, but just jotted down some notes before passing through.

 

I don't really give much thought to being or not being a Taoist, but reading the TTC has brought me closer to being comfortable in my own skin, by internalizing the messages.

 

Walking a spiritual path, might best be done alone, without the distractions of a crowd of people that all have a better way to do it and sometimes an agenda, for their suggestions, even if only to salve their ego. I just read the words, feel the feelings they evoke and try to be a better human being, with what I learn.

 

Of course there is the intellectual side of it too and although I do find it interesting at times, I also see it as a trap for my ego, to expel some of it's self importance, sort of like now.

[Jetsun]

I have never met a Taoist, most of the people I know who say they are Taoist are really Christian yet a lot of them don't even know it themselves or won't admit it.

[shanlung]

Ahh ...

 

Infusing my soul

Tranquility in a cup

Divine, sublime ... tea

 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha ha!

Why am I not surprised at above?

 

I have seen you with your invitation for tea in other threads, normally at the point in which a break for tea will be better.

 

Bamboo utensils!

Washing of the tea pot!

 

And of course! the sniffer cups!

 

I bet you might even have a small charcoal burning stove and cast iron kettle to boil water.

 

I am sure you must have a small bonsai, or even a few pieces of Liuli Gongfang to admire while appreciating tea.

In their better days, my LiuLi Gongfang was put to that use. After all, they are beautiful work of art seen in major museum such as the Palace Museum of Taipei, China, Japan and all over the world.

Only in the house of a peasant will you see the Liuli holding down papers for birdies to poop on when I wrote my piece confessing to be a peasant.

 

A fate worse then death for those Liuli pieces.

 

Maybe I should send my Liuli pieces to you.

 

Since you like tea, you will like the photos of the Mucha hills south of Taipeh.

 

 

 

If folks wonder what good are the hills of Mucha, they have the biggest collection of tea houses in the world.

I hope one fine day, you will be there. You might have thought you died and gone to Paradise.

You might be right

 

 

 

 

 

I could not take photos of all those signs above. But that should give you an idea what to expect when you get there.

 

Seeker of Truth,

Taoism was already old when that guy got off the back of his ox to pen a few words down for the keeper of the pass. He was not the founder of Taoism. Maybe better said is that Taoism found him.

 

Phi92,

 

I was wrong when I said there might be no answers to your question.

Looks like there are plenty of answers.

 

Unlike the West (and religious extremist be they in Eat or West, North or South) where the rule is that there must be only one rule and that only they can set the rule, in Taoism if there are a hundred guys, they will come with a hundred and 1 ways to practise Taoism.

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

[Stigweard]

Ha ha ha!

Why am I not surprised at above?

 

I have seen you with your invitation for tea in other threads, normally at the point in which a break for tea will be better.

 

Bamboo utensils!

Washing of the tea pot!

 

And of course! the sniffer cups!

 

I bet you might even have a small charcoal burning stove and cast iron kettle to boil water.

 

I am sure you must have a small bonsai, or even a few pieces of Liuli Gongfang to admire while appreciating tea.

In their better days, my LiuLi Gongfang was put to that use. After all, they are beautiful work of art seen in major museum such as the Palace Museum of Taipei, China, Japan and all over the world.

Only in the house of a peasant will you see the Liuli holding down papers for birdies to poop on when I wrote my piece confessing to be a peasant.

 

A fate worse then death for those Liuli pieces.

 

Maybe I should send my Liuli pieces to you.

 

Since you like tea, you will like the photos of the Mucha hills south of Taipeh.

 

If folks wonder what good are the hills of Mucha, they have the biggest collection of tea houses in the world.

I hope one fine day, you will be there. You might have thought you died and gone to Paradise.

You might be right

 

<snip>

 

I could not take photos of all those signs above. But that should give you an idea what to expect when you get there.

 

Seeker of Truth,

Taoism was already old when that guy got off the back of his ox to pen a few words down for the keeper of the pass. He was not the founder of Taoism. Maybe better said is that Taoism found him.

 

Phi92,

 

I was wrong when I said there might be no answers to your question.

Looks like there are plenty of answers.

 

Unlike the West (and religious extremist be they in Eat or West, North or South) where the rule is that there must be only one rule and that only they can set the rule, in Taoism if there are a hundred guys, they will come with a hundred and 1 ways to practise Taoism.

 

 

Taoistic Idiot

 

Ah ... a true man of culture !!!

 

Let me share as well... from my China trip in 2009:

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

But it is very simple actually...learn to sense the flow of energy all around, feel the rhythm and harmonize. Energy (chi) is primordial, intellect is artificial. A daoist learns to sense this chi and resonates with it (his chi changes frequency to match that of dao). Once in harmony things will happen as they should. If one tries too hard it is not harmony. If one doesn't try then too it is not harmony. When it happens effortlessly, harmony happens. That is wu Wei...doing without doing. Eventually no self no other...dao!

I cliked that I like this post. I do, except what I bolded. Hehehe.

[Phi92]

"Unlike the West (and religious extremist be they in Eat or West, North or South) where the rule is that there must be only one rule and that only they can set the rule, in Taoism if there are a hundred guys, they will come with a hundred and 1 ways to practise Taoism."

 

And that's why I love Daoism

 

Also, I wish I could go to China one day... It's very expensive

[ChiDragon]

"Unlike the West (and religious extremist be they in Eat or West, North or South) where the rule is that there must be only one rule and that only they can set the rule, in Taoism if there are a hundred guys, they will come with a hundred and 1 ways to practise Taoism."

 

And that's why I love Daoism

I have problem with what is in red. How did you come to this conclusion.....???

[Mark Saltveit]

Also, I wish I could go to China one day...

 

Then again, ch. 47 of the DDJ (Mair translation):

"Without going outdoors, one may know all under heaven.

...

The farther one goes, the less one knows.

...

The sage knows without journeying."

 

Distance can be cultural and temporal, too. I think many Westerners exoticize China and its trappings and cultural products, both ancient and modern. It is easier to find Dao in what you know. Zhuangzi did not portray seekers who traveled to Tibet to retrieve Laozi's teachings; it was Butcher Ding in the basement, and the wheelwright, who found Dao in the "practice" of their work.

 

China is a very confused country, a rapidly industrializing and increasingly rich third world country with incredibly bad pollution, severe corruption and nepotism, and rampant materialism. I hope you don't expect to find the idyllic scenes in the pictures above and wise Daoist sages all around. They are part of China today the same way that cowboy gunslingers and Indian peace pipes are part of America today.