Qi machine

[Taomeow]

Hi bums,

 

I had this Qi Machine (made by Sun Ancon, I mention it because I've heard they are not all created equal, but no, I'm not a distributor, I swear, and am most definitely not trying to SELL one) for a couple of weeks, then had to give it back (not mine), and now I'm thinking I might want one because I really liked it. That is, liked it short term, but I don't know what would happen if I owned one. Does anyone have one? And if you do, can you share your experience? Does it get old, boring, or new and better with time? Any unpleasant side effects? Pleasant ones? Does it collect dust in some corner or do you use it regularly? Does it do something major, minor, or nothing at all for you?

 

Thanks for all possible returns!

[Starjumper]

Sometimes I put my machine in the closet when company comes over and then it can sit there for months. One drawback is that it is most effective to get a large chi buzz upon falling asleep but when I tried my machine at the foot of my bed (it on a cabinet), the mattress dampened out the motion too much so it was ineffective for that. Getting up and going to bed after using it on the floor doesn't work because the act of getting up and moving makes you lose the chi buzz. It is best to be able to lie there and focus on the feeling in order to make it last for as long as possible so as to get the most benefit out of it.

 

Possibly using it can get to be ho hum and it gets neglected, I'm sure that depends entirely on the practitioner, but I know how to generate the same large amounts of energy in the same way without the machine so I have a good excuse =)

 

The benefit of the machine, of course, is that it generates so much energy, particularly in someone who is primed for it and is sensitive to the energy. There is only one type of exercise that generates more energy and most practitioners are unlikely to be aware of it. However the exercise is not as restful as lying on the floor and so it is a bit more of a challenge to relax into the feeling and extend it via focus once you stop. There are ways that you can learn to move in the same manner as the chi machine moves you and I can teach you these in the Cave if you would like to learn. You will then be able to generate large amounts of this blissful energy prior to dropping off to sleep, which is the premier method of increasing postnatal chi.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Starjumper7

[Taomeow]

Sometimes I put my machine in the closet when company comes over and then it can sit there for months. One drawback is that it is most effective to get a large chi buzz upon falling asleep but when I tried my machine at the foot of my bed (it on a cabinet), the mattress dampened out the motion too much so it was ineffective for that. Getting up and going to bed after using it on the floor doesn't work because the act of getting up and moving makes you lose the chi buzz. It is best to be able to lie there and focus on the feeling in order to make it last for as long as possible so as to get the most benefit out of it.

 

Possibly using it can get to be ho hum and it gets neglected, I'm sure that depends entirely on the practitioner, but I know how to generate the same large amounts of energy in the same way without the machine so I have a good excuse =)

 

The benefit of the machine, of course, is that it generates so much energy, particularly in someone who is primed for it and is sensitive to the energy. There is only one type of exercise that generates more energy and most practitioners are unlikely to be aware of it. However the exercise is not as restful as lying on the floor and so it is a bit more of a challenge to relax into the feeling and extend it via focus once you stop. There are ways that you can learn to move in the same manner as the chi machine moves you and I can teach you these in the Cave if you would like to learn. You will then be able to generate large amounts of this blissful energy prior to dropping off to sleep, which is the premier method of increasing postnatal chi.

 

Thanks, SJ,

 

yeah, let me see what you're up to... You think the blissful energy before sleep is the premier method? Qi machine I had to specifically NOT use right before bedtime because blissful energy it did generate but sleep it busted. Also, I would put a CD of Chinese classical music on (to cover up for the sound the machine's mechanical parts make which, though not terribly loud or annoying by itself, is absolutely out of sync with the wave frequency the machine generates -- the qi waves in the feet are about twice as fast as that clicking sound while the ones going up the legs to the body, about three times slower!) -- where was I? -- oh, and Chinese music always amplifies whatever state I'm in -- I'd say it has the value of 9 for me (feng-shui-wise speaking), so if I'm sleepy to begin with, one peep of the pipa or the bamboo flute will knock me out, but if I'm over-energized, the same one peep will turn into a whole CD and then another one and l'd be listening to them with a mixed feeling... how's blissfully pissed for a feeling?

[Starjumper]

Yes, I guess the noise of the machine does clash with the energy. I did feel that and it was somewhat of a bother but I just put up with it because the noise is a given. I suppose it would be worse if you're listening to music at the same time but I don't listen to music.

 

You think the blissful energy before sleep is the premier method?

 

Well, according to our fellow Taoist wizard, Peter Ragnar, it is an ideal way to increase postnatal chi, and I do feel he is correct (one of the most efficient ways but by no means the only way). However, there is much more to a holistic practice than just increasing postnatal chi so I wouldn't say it's better, just a most excellent (and important) addition to a good cultivation practice.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Starjumper7

[thaddeus]

I've always wanted to try or get one of these..can more people chime in on it? It seems to be a cool way to loosen the hip joints and generate awareness of the whole pelvis...???

T

[thelerner]

Hmnn, I always thought that was what women were for.

 

 

Michael

[Guest sykkelpump]

Well,I would like to learn how to generate large amounts of chi

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I put my machine in the closet when company comes over and then it can sit there for months. One drawback is that it is most effective to get a large chi buzz upon falling asleep but when I tried my machine at the foot of my bed (it on a cabinet), the mattress dampened out the motion too much so it was ineffective for that. Getting up and going to bed after using it on the floor doesn't work because the act of getting up and moving makes you lose the chi buzz. It is best to be able to lie there and focus on the feeling in order to make it last for as long as possible so as to get the most benefit out of it.

 

Possibly using it can get to be ho hum and it gets neglected, I'm sure that depends entirely on the practitioner, but I know how to generate the same large amounts of energy in the same way without the machine so I have a good excuse =)

 

The benefit of the machine, of course, is that it generates so much energy, particularly in someone who is primed for it and is sensitive to the energy. There is only one type of exercise that generates more energy and most practitioners are unlikely to be aware of it. However the exercise is not as restful as lying on the floor and so it is a bit more of a challenge to relax into the feeling and extend it via focus once you stop. There are ways that you can learn to move in the same manner as the chi machine moves you and I can teach you these in the Cave if you would like to learn. You will then be able to generate large amounts of this blissful energy prior to dropping off to sleep, which is the premier method of increasing postnatal chi.

[Yoda]

I have a foot massager/infrared machine and I went a long time having a nice foot massage before going to bed. Very nice, but it's in the closet currently. It's nice to have some sort of beddy-bye practice.

[Ian]

Hi bums,

 

I had this Qi Machine (made by Sun Ancon, I mention it because I've heard they are not all created equal, but no, I'm not a distributor, I swear, and am most definitely not trying to SELL one) for a couple of weeks, then had to give it back (not mine), and now I'm thinking I might want one because I really liked it. That is, liked it short term, but I don't know what would happen if I owned one. Does anyone have one? And if you do, can you share your experience? Does it get old, boring, or new and better with time? Any unpleasant side effects? Pleasant ones? Does it collect dust in some corner or do you use it regularly? Does it do something major, minor, or nothing at all for you?

 

Thanks for all possible returns!

 

Ah! Are you talking about the thing that waves your feet from side to side to generate a wave of rising chi?

 

I had one for a while. Got it for my father, cos he was too ill to do his own exercise, but it was too fierce for him. I used it myself for a while. Found it enjoyable, but definitely something that one could allow or obstruct, and the residual energy afterwards seemed somehow of a different order to that which came from more self-propelled activities. I sold it on after a couple fo months.

 

If you're talking about something else, do tell us what it does.

[QiDr]

We tried out several of those machines when I was in TCM school. We tested eight different acu-points (galvanic skin response method), before and after the use of the machines and we tested the same points before and after acupuncture. The qi machines did not show consistant response change where the acupuncture did. the subjects all reported that the machine treatment felt mechanical (go figure), while the acupuncture felt natural. Our conclusion: the best technology for stimulating Qi is a needle.

[thaddeus]

Our conclusion: the best technology for stimulating Qi is a needle.

What other methods did you study? I'm curious if heat/herbs/taiji movement had any effect?

T

[Taomeow]

We tried out several of those machines when I was in TCM school. We tested eight different acu-points (galvanic skin response method), before and after the use of the machines and we tested the same points before and after acupuncture. The qi machines did not show consistant response change where the acupuncture did. the subjects all reported that the machine treatment felt mechanical (go figure), while the acupuncture felt natural. Our conclusion: the best technology for stimulating Qi is a needle.

 

Speaking of which, what do you think about using acupuncture on oneself? The three Chinese acupuncturists whose treatments I used at different times all said "no, not good," the two non-Chinese ones whom I asked the same question said, "sure, I do it on myself whenever I need it." I don't do acupuncture on myself (although I know enough of it to be able to) because it "feels unnatural." So I was trying to compare the Qi machine to other self-treatments, not to treatments of self by others.

 

Do you do acupuncture on yourself?

Edited February 5, 2007 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

Oh, I just realized something, QiDr -- you probably mean electroacupuncture machines which you compared to needles? The machine I was talking about is the one described above by Ian, the one that moves your legs vigorously (and the whole body, sublty) from side to side in a specific fish-tail-like fashion. (The makers of the Sun Ancon machine assert other brands fail to create the correct pattern of "primal" movement, but whether they are telling the truth I don't know. The Japanese guy who invented the machine was inspired, predictably, by his goldfish.)

Edited February 5, 2007 by Taomeow

[Starjumper]

We tried out several of those machines when I was in TCM school. We tested eight different acu-points (galvanic skin response method), before and after the use of the machines and we tested the same points before and after acupuncture. The qi machines did not show consistant response change where the acupuncture did. the subjects all reported that the machine treatment felt mechanical (go figure), while the acupuncture felt natural. Our conclusion: the best technology for stimulating Qi is a needle.

 

That may be true but I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. The chi machines generate MORE energy, lots of it, in a non specific manner. Acupuncture has nothing to do with generating energy, it is more about dealing with blockages. It has very little commonality with acupuncture and it was a mistake to campare them, I suggest you try one of the machines on yourself to see how it feels.

 

 

Ah! Are you talking about the thing that waves your feet from side to side to generate a wave of rising chi?

 

I had one for a while. Got it for my father, cos he was too ill to do his own exercise, but it was too fierce for him. I used it myself for a while. Found it enjoyable, but definitely something that one could allow or obstruct, and the residual energy afterwards seemed somehow of a different order to that which came from more self-propelled activities. I sold it on after a couple of months.

 

If you're talking about something else, do tell us what it does.

 

 

Some of the machines are variable speed and so might have been better for your father at a slow setting. I hope you can try to describe what was different about the energy you felt from the machine compared to self-propelled activities because I have learned to move myself in the same way as the machine and it generates the same feeling. It seems to me that the key difference you may have experienced is 'more' because there are also some other types of self practices which generate similar amounts of energy with similar feelings.

Edited February 6, 2007 by Starjumper7

[thaddeus]

The chi machines generate MORE energy, lots of it, in a non specific manner.

Ha! now THAT'S funny.

Acupuncture has nothing to do with generating energy, it is more about dealing with blockages. It has very little commonality with acupuncture and it was a mistake to campare them....

Dunno, if the chi machine was making the body 'generate more energy' then we would expect to see something reflected in the acupoints, don't you think?

Got anything substantial to back up your position?

Not trying to be a ball buster here...

T

[VCraigP]

Sun Ancon Chi machine.

 

I have one. Don't use it very often anymore. But sometimes my kids do. They like it. I think that says something when a 4 year old decides she wants to do it of her own volition. Or maybe it's just fun.

 

I enjoyed using it. I definitely don't think it provides and chi to the system, but perhaps the function of opening up the body through the rocking does allow for chi to move better.

 

I do a practice of shaking with Master Zhongxian Wu. This is much more than the ordinary "shaking the tree" which M.Winn does. This process is done over a long period of time, sometimes as much as 1/2 hour or more. At the end of the shaking one has the nice buzzing, vibrating, heat sensation which is similar but much richer than that achieved by the so called Chi machine. Since one maintains focus on the tantien and keeping the crown open and the perineum sealed the effect is much more than provided by the chi machine. Also, focusing on the tantien after the shaking creates an opportunity to work with the chi and store it.

 

I view the Chi machine as something which will provide some movement benefit to someone who cannot or will not get exercise on their own. Expecting it to "generate" chi is silly to me. It may oxegenate the cells by the movement and may provide some movement in the gut to break things up and move them along, but YOU generate the chi, not this machine.

 

All in all, I liked it, but if I were to use 15 minutes to generate chi through shaking and standing focus I would get a LOT more from that.

 

TaoMeow I expect you have plenty of knowledge and experience to do the same.

 

Craig

[Taomeow]

Thanks for all the input, guys,

 

and, Craig, SJ, I will look into shaking too, been meaning to... but I feel that I specifically need something good and energizing that is done "to me" and "for me" rather than "more things I have to do" The past four years, I've been doing "a helluva lot" rather than "not enough." There was a serious illness in the family, and that's where much of my qi and most of my life's energy and all of its focus went, mending it. My acupuncturist kept telling me that I "need things for myself," shaking his head and asserting I'm "using up more than I have." So anything that generates qi without my having to dip into the (already running low) pool of zhi is welcome in my life right now. That's how I try to design my practices of the moment -- the I Ching way, "the easy and the simple." (Of course my definition of "easy and simple" is not the same as someone else's, but the Qi machine is definitely in this category for anyone -- except I would still use the dantien focus or some other meditation mode when using it. I do it when getting acupuncture too, and even when swimming, and even when loading the dishwasher )

[thaddeus]

So anything that generates qi without my having to dip into the (already running low) pool of zhi is welcome in my life right now.

I'm interested in this as well. Some masters hold the point of view that practices such as taiji actually use up jing/chi, so you need to fortify it. I tend to agree because noone is growing younger from these practices. So far the only thing that I see that qualifies as chi building is sleep. So perhaps if there is a practice that makes you feel as if you don't really need to sleep more, it could qualify as chi building. Good topic for a discussion, imo.

T

[mYTHmAKER]

I'm interested in this as well. Some masters hold the point of view that practices such as taiji actually use up jing/chi, so you need to fortify it. I tend to agree because noone is growing younger from these practices. So far the only thing that I see that qualifies as chi building is sleep. So perhaps if there is a practice that makes you feel as if you don't really need to sleep more, it could qualify as chi building. Good topic for a discussion, imo.

T

 

I don't see anyone getting younger from sleep either

One grows younger playing tai chi in that they are able to move well and are healthier than

most of those who don't do tai chi.

Some supplement their tai chi with smoking and drinking. Don't blame it on tai chi.

I look younger than my age but so did my mother who exercised by playing ma jong.

There are really too many factors involved.

I would like to know what the masters who say you need to fortify tai chi as you use up jing

recommend. Do you know - please share.

[Starjumper]

Ha! now THAT'S funny.

 

What's so funny about it, the idea that it generates more energy or that it is non specific?

 

 

Dunno, if the chi machine was making the body 'generate more energy' then we would expect to see something reflected in the acupoints, don't you think?

Got anything substantial to back up your position?

Not trying to be a ball buster here...

 

I don't have any idea what to expect from those accupuncture measuring techniques, and the most substantial thing I have to back up what I'm saying is my experience. I have trained myself to be quite sensitive to chi and when I use certain motions to generate more of it then you can bet your life that I feel more of it then, and the machine produces the same feeling. The only thing I can recommend is that you try it yourself.

 

I enjoyed using it. I definitely don't think it provides and chi to the system, but perhaps the function of opening up the body through the rocking does allow for chi to move better.

 

I do a practice of shaking with Master Zhongxian Wu. This is much more than the ordinary "shaking the tree" which M.Winn does. This process is done over a long period of time, sometimes as much as 1/2 hour or more. At the end of the shaking one has the nice buzzing, vibrating, heat sensation which is similar but much richer than that achieved by the so called Chi machine. Since one maintains focus on the tantien and keeping the crown open and the perineum sealed the effect is much more than provided by the chi machine. Also, focusing on the tantien after the shaking creates an opportunity to work with the chi and store it.

 

You can do all the same focussing and sealing while using the machine, and for me it generates similar levels of chi as an extensive shaking practice does. I have no idea what Winn teaches pertaining to shaking but I'll take your word for it that it's limited. BTW, there are other practices which generate more chi than shaking =)

 

I view the Chi machine as something which will provide some movement benefit to someone who cannot or will not get exercise on their own. Expecting it to "generate" chi is silly to me. It may oxegenate the cells by the movement and may provide some movement in the gut to break things up and move them along, but YOU generate the chi, not this machine.

 

Word games, your body generates the chi with movement and the machine is what makes you move, so the machine is doing the work and you are getting the benefit. That's called high efficiency, and high efficiency is particularly important in this chi cultivation scheme of things. It generates energy in the same way that shaking does. Do you or anyone else here know how shaking generates energy?

Edited February 7, 2007 by Starjumper7

[thaddeus]

I don't see anyone getting younger from sleep either

One grows younger playing tai chi in that they are able to move well and are healthier than

most of those who don't do tai chi.

Some supplement their tai chi with smoking and drinking. Don't blame it on tai chi.

I look younger than my age but so did my mother who exercised by playing ma jong.

There are really too many factors involved.

I would like to know what the masters who say you need to fortify tai chi as you use up jing

recommend. Do you know - please share.

Check out Deng Ming Dao (sp?) book on scholar warrior. He's the first that comes to mind. He recommends eating herbs and certain foods. He has recipes and pictures for the unititiated. It's really hard for me to integrate that kind of eating into my lifestyle-since i'm not single and living alone. Other people aren't so tolerant of eating, say pork kidney or oxtail and eucommia bark. Tohei sensei is one prominent guy who recommends sleep.

Don't be so quick to poo poo sleep. Sleep is when we regenerate. Lack of good quality sleep *probably* accounts for much of the degenerative aging we see..for example, it's largely during deep sleep that we excrete growth hormone. But yeah, the jing restorative is the holy grail. I'm always on the look out for these things.

T

[thaddeus]

What's so funny about it, the idea that it generates more energy or that it is non specific?

The nonspecific part. SJ, I guess it's near impossible to have a productive conversation when it comes to feelings of chi.

I don't have any idea what to expect from those accupuncture measuring techniques, and the most substantial thing I have to back up what I'm saying is my experience. I have trained myself to be quite sensitive to chi and when I use certain motions to generate more of it then you can bet your life that I feel more of it then, and the machine produces the same feeling. The only thing I can recommend is that you try it yourself.

 

I definitely want to try it, that's why I'm contributing to this thread. Maybe we can talk about what motion you do to get this feeling of generating chi. For me, it's not a motion per se, but a specific way of relaxing/releasing along with the breath that produces *feelings* (and to me it seems to relate more to blood flow and other pressure mechanisms). I think the Chia references to having a higher internal pressure relating to feelings of health make sense. I'm curious what movements you might be doing and what these feelings are..

Thanks,

T

[mYTHmAKER]

Check out Deng Ming Dao (sp?) book on scholar warrior. He's the first that comes to mind. He recommends eating herbs and certain foods. He has recipes and pictures for the unititiated. It's really hard for me to integrate that kind of eating into my lifestyle-since i'm not single and living alone. Other people aren't so tolerant of eating, say pork kidney or oxtail and eucommia bark. Tohei sensei is one prominent guy who recommends sleep.

Don't be so quick to poo poo sleep. Sleep is when we regenerate. Lack of good quality sleep *probably* accounts for much of the degenerative aging we see..for example, it's largely during deep sleep that we excrete growth hormone. But yeah, the jing restorative is the holy grail. I'm always on the look out for these things.

T

 

I will check out Deng Ming Dao. See if I can find vegetarian substitutes for oxtail and pork kidney

I am not poo pooing sleep. It is one of the most important things we do. It regenerates and heals but

it doesn't make us younger.

I did a google and a you tube and there are no photos of Deng. Am curious to see what he looks like.

[thaddeus]

Am curious to see what he looks like.

we're on the same page with that..

T

[Taomeow]

I will check out Deng Ming Dao. See if I can find vegetarian substitutes for oxtail and pork kidney

 

 

Um... there's jing foods that aren't of animal origin, but if you use Deng Ming Dao as a source (which I would encourage, the guy knows his taoism way better than most "modern popularizers,") you will find he shuns "chronic" vegetarianism. Very few people in China have ever been vegetarians, and far as taoism is concerned, most sects will practice vegetarian eating periodically towards a specific goal, but none incorporate it "for everybody for all purposes." E.g., a Mao-shan sorceress will keep a vegetarian diet for a week before writing a talisman. Vegetarianism might be adhered to on a few specific days of the year; also four or five times during the year's transitional phases; also to "kill" strong sexuality when/if it interferes with other activities, or if you're a monk who's taken the vow of celibacy; also in very advanced age, late eighties on; also if/when a doctor prescribes it as a temporary targeted intervention for a particular disorder.

 

By the way, these traditional jing-building foods are delicious, but very hard to find in organic shape and form (if it's factory-farmed, like any other meat obtained this way it is quite harmful of course, not because it's an animal product but because it's a product of human insanity). I don't know what happened in this country with this whole "yuck" idea sold to the population regarding organ meats, but the first thing that comes to mind is that it's yet another bit of racism/colonialism in disguise, since all indigenous peoples without a single exception (and, of course, all Native Americans who lived here before the land was taken away from them) valued organ meats above all other kinds of meat and rightfully so -- that's where all the jing and qi action is. In Mexico, when I dined with a local family rather than in a touristy place, I was served a shen food too -- fried brains!