Opening of the third eye and other byproducts along the way

[Spotless]

I am genuinely confused and thought that you could help reconcile what are seemingly different paths (that makes it impossible for me to choose just one path since they all seem different in principle). Perhaps you read that I am not confused from the psychic signature of my post, but I am not trolling and do wish for your insight in it...

 

Firstly, the jhanas (in the Buddha's sutta pitaka) are achieved by cultivation of a wholesome mental state and mindfulness of body, sensations, thoughts and mental states. Secondly, spring forest qigong is about having this goal in mind (like saving others) and then cultivating through form-based qigong to manipulate energy. Thirdly, NHJ talks about going into extreme stillness so that yang can increase. He talks about the gap between in-breaths and out-breaths elongating into cessation like kumbhaka breathing.

 

I just can't see how mindfulness ties into deliberate manipulation of energy, and into emptiness practice. One is about cultivating a joyous, ecstatic state, one is about moving energy around and the last one is about letting the energy do what it naturally wants. So I'm definitely in a dilemma about this.

 

Then I wanted to know what you advocate, so I read the thread and found the video (the one that starts with breath observation until it stops at the third-eye). Then there was another confusion... NHJ says yang qi rises, but then the video says it is descent of cosmic energy - So with all the facts going here and there, I'm quite confused on what to follow on for my practice. Just wished you could help since you should have a bigger picture of the whole process...

End quote

----

 

The cultivation of a wholesome mental state and more so the encompassing and transcendence of desire is a worthy and necessary practice - it is what we undergo in life whether we intentionally "suffer" or if life simply takes us there again and again until we have moved from bebneath the wheel in that area.

 

In Qi Gong the simple doing of Qi Gong will consistently break patterns up that have arisen that are contrary to your natural patterns and it will help you move to the higher natures and transcend the lower. Qi Gong and Yoga postures will do this regardless of any complicated internal manipulation - well found practice will "manipulate" exquisitely without any interference on your part.

 

I am not sure what video stops at the third eye that I find as a favorite - the third eye is no stopping point in my awareness, nor has it ever been. And unfortunately I don't know what NHJ stands for - but as to some of the movements of energy at the latter stages - (and yet they may happen sooner than later) is it so critical to know this?

 

If you happen to come to the latter stages in a sort of blow by blow series it is not necessary to know the final movements and if you come to know them by sorting them out after a cataclysmic change - in either case often the more you "know" prior the more hindrance the "knowing" is.

 

Beyond the great cosmic pouring of energy as the higher centers truely open up - so many things are occurring that finding words is impossible - and no words were ever spoken that you will "need" if you have a well found practice. The intricacies of the energies as they arise and in their movement from above and downward are written about in many places and they are real - but the interior experience while briefly recognizable is also of no value to know accept as a driver passing a mile marker - it whizzes by and has no more use than that - but it can add retraction of sorts because it might be a greatly prized marker.

 

If you have the retracting experience to go back to that marker and take a picture of it - then the books were a hinderance and not a help. As you reach into the interior of the higher experiences - do enter as a child - understand you know nothing - and it will become apparent that this is true. You will find no answers - you will experience realization - pure awareness - and it will not look like anything you have read or seen.

 

In a well found practice the great vehicle you inhabit will guide you as you envelope the universes and beyond.

 

For now - if you are newish in this - in this life - re-aquaint yourself with the transformation of the base natures and the qualities of mind and emotion - yoga has many forms - you can find one that suits you - Qi Gong has many forms - you can find one that suits you.

 

I began with Hatha and very soon there after practiced Raja Yoga intensely for several years. Look into the various Yoga paths if that interests you and find the one most suited to you. Today I practice Fohan Quan Qi Gong as taught to me by a high master (who is more humble than a street cleaner) it is perfect for my path and it came to me as Raja Yoga did many years ago.

 

I did not search much for Raja - when it came to me it became me - Qi Gong came to me the same day it came into my mind.

 

Your question was excellent - was this helpful?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Regarding jhanas - as you become at ease with meditation and indeed your practices of posture - whether yogic or Qi Gong - be in the jhana and work from it - to be in the jhana requires no effort - and in the instant you are there so to speak, posture related practice works on it - no more is required. (This is often over engineered).

 

Was this clear?

 

(It has been a very long time since I used this language)

Edited October 26, 2015 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Translations are often misleading - often "cessation" of something is used wherein "neutrality" would be better - or at least modify the bent of those words.

 

As in the cessation of "feelings and perceptions" - it is a cessation but it is more a movement to neutrality though it is not a movement per se.

 

The word "surrender" works wonders for some but it is not a "doing" - it is a falling away - yet what words might help to trigger such a falling away is like two left shoes.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Spotless

[Spotless]

In the beginning you are fostering finer perception - finer noticing - and the noticing of that within which you reside - the great gift.

 

This is all you must do and all you must know - everything else will be worn by the bafoon and paraded about like a trophy.

 

In this "simple" beginning stuff - exquisite changes will take place - and this basis of experience will befriend you again and again - it will never quit.

 

Naturally you will add to this noticing a greater beingness within your awareness - this will take you all the way in a well found practice. A well found practice will quite mechanically help you over the humps of grasping and craving - and you will arise to the awareness of clarified neutral - a crystalline view in stillness.

 

Your answers will come more cleanly now - but again not as you might imagine in a million imaginings.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Spotless

[taoguy]

Thank you Spotless, for that explanation. I will deeply reflect on what you said. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Regarding jhanas - as you become at ease with meditation and indeed your practices of posture - whether yogic or Qi Gong - be in the jhana and work from it - to be in the jhana requires no effort - and in the instant you are there so to speak, posture related practice works on it - no more is required. (This is often over engineered).

 

Was this clear?

 

(It has been a very long time since I used this language)

I am aware that you have called me a punk. Keep in mind that I am older than you and have more experience.

 

It is obvious you know nothing about jhanas other than what you've read. Remaining in the first jhana requires effort. And, it does not matter if your posture is straight or you are laying back in a lazy boy with spine curved, first jhana is attainable and sustainable.

[Silent Answers]

I am aware that you have called me a punk. Keep in mind that I am older than you and have more experience.

So shouldn't you know when to drop it?

 

Whether he is or isn't, doesn't affect you or I. Nothing personal and I'm not taking sides....but it is getting a bit annoying/predictable that every time Spotless posts, you're there to critique his legitimacy. It's not even the critique that's the issue, it's the hate/frustration in your words.

[gendao]

So shouldn't you know when to drop it?

 

Whether he is or isn't, doesn't affect you or I. Nothing personal and I'm not taking sides....but it is getting a bit annoying/predictable that every time Spotless posts, you're there to critique his legitimacy. It's not even the critique that's the issue, it's the hate/frustration in your words.

Except Spotless has also repeatedly claimed how detached from his I-dentity and emotionally neutral he has become...yet has also repeatedly lashed out and contradicted those claims with no explanation.  I mean, if he was so carefree, then why the need to defensively label someone a punk and then accuse another (taoguy) of being one too?  And even if they were...why should it bother him?

 

So, if he doesn't live up to these "non-egoic" claims, then how are we to believe he lives up to any or all of his other ones?

[Silent Answers]

Except Spotless has also repeatedly claimed how detached from his I-dentity and emotionally neutral he has become...yet has also repeatedly lashed out and contradicted those claims with no explanation. I mean, if he was so carefree, then why the need to defensively label someone a punk and then accuse another (taoguy) of being one too? And even if they were...why should it bother him?

 

So, if he doesn't live up to these "non-egoic" claims, then how are we to believe he lives up to any or all of his other ones?

We don't have to believe it, but we also don't need to get worked up about every post. You have a similar opinion to TI on this, and no doubt a few others too, but is it worth being so opposed over matters that are almost impossible to prove and even harder to pin down in words? The way we receive those words also affects our acceptance of them. Perhaps it seems to be a bragging ground...or maybe it's just a public diary.

 

I'm not here to defend Spotless, I'm sure he'd be against that idea, but he never said he was perfect. I'm yet to meet any spiritual teacher/student that didn't have flaws behind the scenes.

 

I know, me getting involved is somewhat hypocritical to the advice I'm giving. I just think that TI would be better off not caring about it, and others reading the posts can make up their own minds. Of course, this *is* area for discussion...

 

I guess what I'm really saying is...do whatever you want, as long as it's in our best interests and not just becoming a draining habit reaction.

[Bearded Dragon]

None of that has to have anything to do with the ego. It's just that most of the time it does. You really have no way of knowing, so presuming that such things are tied to the ego is just plain ignorance.

 

The truth is that you really shouldn't believe anything you hear or read, no matter how legitimate the person may seem to be or no matter how highly they are praised. Take it for what it's worth or don't, then move on.

[thelerner]

This thread has many great posts and insights in it.  I'd love to keep it as ontrack as possible.  It's such an important subject. 

[Spotless]

Regarding jhanas - as you become at ease with meditation and indeed your practices of posture - whether yogic or Qi Gong - be in the jhana and work from it - to be in the jhana requires no effort - and in the instant you are there so to speak, posture related practice works on it - no more is required. (This is often over engineered).

Was this clear?

(It has been a very long time since I used this language)

Regarding "practices of posture"

 

Just to clarify as some have taken this reference incorrectly:

 

When I have said "practices of posture" such as are found in Yoga and Qi Gong I am referring to movement postures - practices wherein one stretches to a posture and holds it for a time. This is a distinction from practices in sitting or standing meditation.

 

Meditation will accomplish many things quite mechanically as well - but it is a very different experience and one does not have the physical movements compressing and stretching and spiral twisting the energies of the bodies as is done in the "practices of posture" as done in Yoga and Qi Gong apart from the meditative practice.

 

It is also important to note in the current topics that Qi Gong is quite specifically not a trance practice. Yoga in its many forms may incorporate trance and in some cases it is trance based. For the most part the posture practices of both are not trance based. I do not advocate trance practice as a whole. Certainly one might familiarize themselves with it and become adept in it - but it is a part of the rabbits way as a general rule and will offer short cuts and thinner experience resulting often in the assumption of high accomplishment where little was accomplished.

 

In other movement practices - such as Tai Chi - the fluid nature of the movements can easily lead one into a trance practice - often without an awareness that this is what is happening. It may not be clear to many reading here that in Qi Gong the movements are not generally fluid and are supposed to be practiced consciously out of trance.

 

As an example: in Qi Gong one might push out with both hands and then pull in - but in one case hold the push out for a long time and in the next instance not hold it long. Whereas in a Tai Chi movement that is similar this would be a fluid and somewhat rhythmic flow.

 

In the change over from one yogic posture to the next it is very easy to see this as a posture exercise and not a trance or flowing practice.

 

Trance and flow are not referencing the same thing - one can be in a flow and out of trance - it is just that many naturally slip into trance in flowing practices as it is often our nature to be in trance during most of our waking hours and certain flowing movements lend themselves to this proclivity.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Regarding the idea of "no effort":

 

I often use the phrase "no effort" and often stress the need for "no effort" in ones practice.

 

In our daily life it is the general practice to "will" and "manipulate" to "tense up" and "concentrate hard" or concentrate with tension.

When learning new things we often "brace" ourselves and retract from a fluid body into our minds and analyzers.

This sudden constraint of our energies is contrary to the best learning atmosphere and in the case of subtle energies it is a considerable preloading of obscuring energy patterns.

 

Specifically - as one makes headway into subtle energetic natures - advancing in "no effort" is a requirement. That is not to say one cannot advance with great effort and "in effort" - but it IS to say that many high subtle disciplines cannot be reached "in effort".

 

Some will re-rout themselves by using trance to bypass the discipline of "no effort" - and will accomplish some semblance of the experiences that one can progress to in "no effort" but it will not in fact be comparable experiencially.

 

I say discipline of "no effort" but it is an exquisite discipline - it is one of learning to "un-brace" and not tense up - to "not will" and "concentrate hard" - not to strain and hold hard and compress. Something that requires "no effort" may require a gentle steadiness of ones awareness somewhere - a concentration of sorts - but practiced in a very different way than the normal subjugation of ones attention and a sort of forced willed glued attention.

 

A great many of the highest abilities cannot be practiced or attained from effort - it is not possible. You can achieve training wheel levels "in effort" at best - enough to write books and fool yourself and others but far from the abilities of "no effort".

Edited October 27, 2015 by Spotless

[taoguy]

Trance and flow are not referencing the same thing - one can be in a flow and out of trance - it is just that many naturally slip into trance in flowing practices as it is often our nature to be in trance during most of our waking hours and certain flowing movements lend themselves to this proclivity.

 

I interpret it as... trance (forcibly stopping) and flow (running along with guidance by nature). So flowing until it naturally rests is like stirring a cup and letting it rest on its own momentum, or perhaps letting a top spin until its momentum is done... Did I get it right?

 

 

Regarding the idea of "no effort":

 

I often use the phrase "no effort" and often stress the need for "no effort" in ones practice.

 

In our daily life it is the general practice to "will" and "manipulate" to "tense up" and "concentrate hard" or concentrate with tension.

When learning new things we often "brace" ourselves and retract from a fluid body into our minds and analyzers.

This sudden constraint of our energies is contrary to the best learning atmosphere and in the case of subtle energies it is a considerable preloading of obscuring energy patterns.

 

Specifically - as one makes headway into subtle energetic natures - advancing in "no effort" is a requirement. That is not to say one cannot advance with great effort and "in effort" - but it IS to say that many high subtle disciplines cannot be reached "in effort".

 

Some will re-rout themselves by using trance to bypass the discipline of "no effort" - and will accomplish some semblance of the experiences that one can progress to in "no effort" but it will not in fact be comparable experiencially.

 

I say discipline of "no effort" but it is an exquisite discipline - it is one of learning to "un-brace" and not tense up - to "not will" and "concentrate hard" - not to strain and hold hard and compress. Something that requires "no effort" may require a gentle steadiness of ones awareness somewhere - a concentration of sorts - but practiced in a very different way than the normal subjugation of ones attention and a sort of forced willed glued attention.

 

A great many of the highest abilities cannot be practiced or attained from effort - it is not possible. You can achieve training wheel levels "in effort" at best - enough to write books and fool yourself and others but far from the abilities of "no effort".

 

I learnt in a lecture from Ajahn Brahm, who said that concentration is not tensing up, but rather, it is about tranquil stillness of the mind. So I think I understand what you mean by 'no effort' to a small degree... I also find in practice that when I surrender or give up, it allows this blissfulness to rise within me.

 

I really liked what you said about how "effort" is to break up negative patterns. It really made it clear for me, thank you.

 

---

 

Just another question, if you don't mind....

 

What is your view on sexuality? Sex? Masturbation? Lust? Is it purely biological and natural? Or is it really founded upon some kind of love between beings, just expressed in physical form? Given how many texts frown upon masturbation or wasting of 'seed' (while the Bible and Buddhist sutras only state sexual misconduct), I'd love to know what's a healthy viewpoint to look at it. Thank you again for taking your time to explain!

[Fate]

I have only recently been celibate (since the shift - just a few years - I have a wife and 8 year old son). My third eye opened when I was 20. At that time I was practicing intensely and did use restraint but don't really remember practicing it in the sense of Celibacy so much as only having sex when I met some girl who was willing - (and not by myself). I guess in reflection I was pretty much celibate at the time. When I think of the practice at that time and talk about it - it did indeed include restraint - when I think of the mindset it included no outward restraint - I was open to a relationship but had none during that time - just some causal relations here and there, it was not celibacy in the strict sense of the word/practice.

 

I would say that a posture related practice (yoga or Qi Gong) is very helpful in dealing with celibacy and the accumulating energy.

For me testosterone was/is like a hurricane - all practice helped tremendously in calming those waters.

 

Celibacy can be useful for some and not so much for others - it is very practice dependent as well as body specific. It is probably best prescribed by a teacher or in the more obvious case on becoming a monk with a vow of celibacy. However I used restraint on my own terms and without prescription.

 

After the shift, sex was still attractive but also now clearly a distraction - it became out of place. This happened prior to the shift on many other levels: alcohol was dropped and coffee was reduced or stopped entirely. With alcohol it became a downer - just a small amount would disrupt my energy levels negatively. Coffee was similar - it kind of infected it with a fine spray of odd energy.

 

I still have coffee from time to time but it definitely effects joint pain in this body and I cannot have it too much in one week or my joints start to become very painful. I enjoy the taste and recently we purchased an electric water kettle with automated temperature settings. It is easy to make perfect coffee with the correct temperature so I had fun with that this past week until all of my non-existent joint pain came back in a roar and I had to stop - and within a day all of my joint pain stopped.

 

By the way - the new kettle with the temp settings is only $30 at Target - Oster brand - most temp setting kettles are $90+

Makes great tea - teas often require much lower temps for the best results (like 160 degree for white teas).

 

Back to celibacy - some people such as myself are radically effected by testosterone - some not so much.

In each case celibacy can be applied as a tool and also as a discipline.

For nearly my entire adult life i was engaged in sex on some level frequently.

If celibacy and psychic siddhis have anything in common - I was an exception.

 

I generally only practiced not having ejaculation for periods no longer than a few months. Often having only to do with discipline and not practice per se. However - a few months at the right time here and there can be very effective.

 

[Spotless]

Question from Taoguy:

 

I interpret it as... trance (forcibly stopping) and flow (running along with guidance by nature). So flowing until it naturally rests is like stirring a cup and letting it rest on its own momentum, or perhaps letting a top spin until its momentum is done... Did I get it right?

End Quote

 

Spotless:

 

I don't associate Trance with "forcibly stopping" so I think a bit more needs to be added.

In many movement forms one can choose to be very much in the body and aware of the body - embodiment - Or one can allow oneself to sort of float out of the body or escalate their vibration to a high level in which they are easily out, in, or around their body - it is a relatively detached state and if one were to examine it closely it is one where the bodies are vibrating considerably higher than normal. This is also a state wherein other beings have much easier access to your physical space.

 

In Qi Gong one is not in trance - it is an embodiment practice.

 

 

Question from Taoguy:

 

"Just another question, if you don't mind....

 

What is your view on sexuality? Sex? Masturbation? Lust? Is it purely biological and natural? Or is it really founded upon some kind of love between beings, just expressed in physical form? Given how many texts frown upon masturbation or wasting of 'seed' (while the Bible and Buddhist sutras only state sexual misconduct), I'd love to know what's a healthy viewpoint to look at it. Thank you again for taking your time to explain!

"

End of Quote

 

In addition to the quote from me above regarding sex I would advise the following:

Stay away from hard porn - their is a natural progression in porn from nice to nasty to crude, rude and vulgar - it is a simple progression - but it does not have to be - you can stay with simple more wholesome stuff or skip it altogether.

 

As you probably know - the more you stroke the more you want to stroke - so at some point you find you may wish to get over the two week hump and by then it gets easier and easier to let go of it - until obviously something grabs you and then hopefully you have a good time with her and see what happens.

 

If you have what I would consider a good healthy outlook regarding sex - then enjoy it and don't indulge it to often by yourself. In my experience the more I indulged on my own the more it got out of control - however - this is a very relative thing.

 

It is a wonderful thing to have a partner and sex is a wonderful thing that is good to have frequently - it never seem to interfere with my practice - but it is also true that practicing restraint here and there is a useful tool.

I never spoke about it with any of my girlfriends - and I might have just skipped a week or two of sex and they never were the wiser regarding restraint.

 

This is a very individual thing - personally I think a good Scandinavian view of sex is the best overall view to have. That it is natural, healthy and good for you. My personal swim team (sperm) was always ready and willing and the experience was always excellent.

I was brought up Catholic so I was bent all out of shape to begin with but recovered over time.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Spotless

[Kubba]

Hello Spotless,

I often read here and what makes me think is your oppinion on trance states. I dont know exactly what do you mean by trance? There are yogic teachers who promotes trance states of which different body movenents emerge, like asamas, pranayamas, mudras. In yogis traditions there is an old concept of cosmic trance that reveals secrets of yoga and these of existence- that is born from initiation by a guru. So am curious weather you stay in contradiction to it or do you talk about other thing.

Have you ever practiced pranayama?

Edited October 28, 2015 by Kubba

[Spotless]

Hello Spotless,

I often read here and what makes me think is your oppinion on trance states. I dont know exactly what do you mean by trance? There are yogic teachers who promotes trance states of which different body movenents emerge, like asamas, pranayamas, mudras. In yogis traditions there is an old concept of cosmic trance that reveals secrets of yoga and these of existence- that is born from initiation by a guru. So am curious weather you stay in contradiction to it or do you talk about other thing.

Have you ever practiced pranayama?

 

Yes - there is not much breath work I have not done.

 

In yoga there can be found trance teachings and non-trance. Also many do not understand non-trance because to many trance is a given. But there is a very real difference.

 

And there is nothing wrong with trance per se.

 

I caution regarding it because it is addictive and very much a part of what I call the Rabbits way. Much of what is gleaned from trance states are ethereal by comparison to the same states achieved in embodiment out of trance. And the difference in the accomplishment is vast.

 

Imagine we go to Mexico and spend a week there having a great time.

Imagine we go to a movie about all the places we just went in Mexico.

 

They are very close in many ways but the actual experience of being in Mexico means that when you talk about it you have a completely different viewpoint - you have physically been there.

 

Also - when your head is "in" a movie - your reference to what "actors" are real and what is "concocted" is put on hold - this is not the case in embodiment - at least to a far lesser extent.

 

When you have accomplished - encompassed - certain abilities in embodiment you will not be quoting others regarding what you believe you know - you will know what you know - you will remember the air and the temperature and the humidity and the stones under your feet. You will not have been beyond yourself during the experiences and you will not need to go beyond yourself in order to "have" those awarenesses.

 

It is easier to do trance and hit all sorts of states - and it is fine to do so - but with that said - it can also permanently effect the way you meditate - show me a long time meditator that has not gotten the results one would expect and I'll show you a meditator that has been going into trance during meditation - negating nearly all of the benefits.

 

If you are able to "see" one in trance and one meditating in "out of trance" the difference is very significant - the trancer is primarily out of body and the body / being transmutations are practically non-existent. If you seek enlightenment you may gain it from either direction but in the end the trance method will bring you far less breadth of abilities and it is much more remote from the experience of Awakening - it is why the Rabbits finish last.

 

Obviously this is not a race and metaphors only go so far - but I hope this has clarified some points.

[Kubba]

Yes - there is not much breath work I have not done. In yoga there can be found trance teachings and non-trance. Also many do not understand non-trance because to many trance is a given. But there is a very real difference. And there is nothing wrong with trance per se. I caution regarding it because it is addictive and very much a part of what I call the Rabbits way. Much of what is gleaned from trance states are ethereal by comparison to the same states achieved in embodiment out of trance. And the difference in the accomplishment is vast. Imagine we go to Mexico and spend a week there having a great time. Imagine we go to a movie about all the places we just went in Mexico. They are very close in many ways but the actual experience of being in Mexico means that when you talk about it you have a completely different viewpoint - you have physically been there. Also - when your head is "in" a movie - your reference to what "actors" are real and what is "concocted" is put on hold - this is not the case in embodiment - at least to a far lesser extent. When you have accomplished - encompassed - certain abilities in embodiment you will not be quoting others regarding what you believe you know - you will know what you know - you will remember the air and the temperature and the humidity and the stones under your feet. You will not have been beyond yourself during the experiences and you will not need to go beyond yourself in order to "have" those awarenesses. It is easier to do trance and hit all sorts of states - and it is fine to do so - but with that said - it can also permanently effect the way you meditate - show me a long time meditator that has not gotten the results one would expect and I'll show you a meditator that has been going into trance during meditation - negating nearly all of the benefits. If you are able to "see" one in trance and one meditating in "out of trance" the difference is very significant - the trancer is primarily out of body and the body / being transmutations are practically non-existent. If you seek enlightenment you may gain it from either direction but in the end the trance method will bring you far less breadth of abilities and it is much more remote from the experience of Awakening - it is why the Rabbits finish last. Obviously this is not a race and metaphors only go so far - but I hope this has clarified some points.

 

Thanks. 

My experience with trances was like you said - at the beginning when it happened spontaneously  I did not know what was it. At that point I had no guidance and it seemed plesant so I felt into addiction and assumptions that achieved something, but then I met my teacher and he cautioned me not to indulge trance states - to see the line between wilingly perpetuating these states and just allowing them to happend naturally. He also showed how to come back to the body after drifting out.

In his presence all my previous assumptions were crashed. I've been often falling into trance states with enormous intensity (or I think it was like that) when being in his presence or flows of movements (don't know the difference yet) - for example when attending to his darshan my body sometimes just did assans and mudras that I did not know that exist out of nowhere and it was as if I could not help - the same with savicalpa samadhi - just falling into it after hearing a few words. But I never educated myself what are these trance states so thats why I asked you and still don't know how to recognise weather it is a trance state, meditation, sponteanous flow or something else.

How to recognise if one is in trance or not?

Edited October 28, 2015 by Kubba

[gendao]

I really liked what you said about how "effort" is to break up negative patterns. It really made it clear for me, thank you.

Healing takes active effort - to release blockages that actually are requiring your constant subconscious effort.  And only after you're cleared and are no longer subconsciously blocking your energy, can it flow unimpeded effortlessly.

 

Water won't flow freely through a pipe until you've unclogged it first.  And unclogging takes some sort of effort (just ask a plumber).

 

Of course, most people skip the first active step...and thus get nowhere with the second passive one.  They attempt to imitate the masters at their later advanced stages, while not realizing what it took for them to first get there...

[Spotless]

Healing takes active effort - to release blockages that actually are requiring your constant subconscious effort. And only after you're cleared and are no longer subconsciously blocking your energy, can it flow unimpeded effortlessly.

 

Water won't flow freely through a pipe until you've unclogged it first. And unclogging takes some sort of effort (just ask a plumber).

 

Of course, http://thedaobums.com/topic/39646-this-experience-of-deeper-and-fresh-wounds-on-my-return/?p=652897]most people skip the first active step...and thus get nowhere with the second passive one[/url]. They attempt to imitate the masters at their later advanced stages, while not realizing what it took for them to first get there...

There is nothing to heal. It is identification that is the root. Under the wheel everything done in "your healing" is empowerment of "the problem".

 

There is no release - this is also a misnomer.

 

The process of intentional suffering is not "the healing" - you are spotless and nothing needs healing - the compression is of your own accord. In life or in practice (intentional exposure "suffering") such as in a retreat - the processes are increased in intensity and it is not pleasant for much of the time if you are holding yourself near the flames.

 

But it is not healing in the sense of healing - it is what you are here for - transmutation. Nothing is blocked yet it is - like a round peg being jammed into a square hole - it is identification with roundness and the willing to make it square - this is the block - your positions - this must pass - you must "give up" your positions / identifications. This then is "healing" but it is beyond healing - it is something the universe depends on.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Spotless

[Silent Answers]

I guess rather than blockages as it's often called, these issues are more akin to being tensed up/gripped by attention. When you let them go, or allow yourself to ease off/out of them, there's a sudden clarity and sense of coming home...what seemed urgent before, then seems like a joke. Stopping self from flowing back down those old waterways is the trick.

[gendao]

There is nothing to heal. It is identification that is the root. Under the wheel everything done in "your healing" is empowerment of "the problem".

 

There is no release - this is also a misnomer.

 

The process of intentional suffering is not "the healing" - you are spotless and nothing needs healing - the compression is of your own accord. In life or in practice (intentional exposure "suffering") such as in a retreat - the processes are increased in intensity and it is not pleasant for much of the time if you are holding yourself near the flames.

 

But it is not healing in the sense of healing - it is what you are here for - transmutation. Nothing is blocked yet it is - like a round peg being jammed into a square hole - it is identification with roundness and the willing to make it square - this is the block - your positions - this must pass - you must "give up" your positions / identifications. This then is "healing" but it is beyond healing - it is something the universe depends on.

I guess you are espousing sort of a Buddhist interpretation of subject identification (duality) being the cause of all "illness" and detachment (nonduality) being the cure to it?

 

And where I say that "blocks" must be "released" (actively) for "healing"...you "relabel" them as "positions/identifications" that must be "given up" (effortlessly?) for "transmutation?"

 

So, I guess the real difference here in practice is that I might try any number of active therapies (for example, say paida lajin, cupping, guasha, bodywork, etc, etc)...to release such blockages - whereas you wouldn't?

 

Do you enjoy perfect physical, emotional, and mental health, then? If not, why and is it only a matter of time before you give up your remaining positions causing problems and transmute them too? Or would you simply relabel high blood pressure, weak kidneys, and arthritis (hypothetically speaking) as "perfection" that simply must be accepted like a square peg?

Edited October 30, 2015 by gendao

[Spotless]

I guess you are espousing sort of a Buddhist interpretation of subject identification (duality) being the cause of all "illness" and detachment (nonduality) being the cure to it?

And where I say that "blocks" must be "released" (actively) for "healing"...you "relabel" them as "positions/identifications" that must be "given up" (effortlessly?) for "transmutation?"

So, I guess the real difference here in practice is that I might try any number of active therapies (for example, say http://thedaobums.com/topic/39205-paidan-lajin-the-cure-for-every-known-ailment/]paida lajin[/url], cupping, guasha, bodywork, etc, etc)...to release such blockages - whereas you wouldn't?

Do you enjoy perfect physical, emotional, and mental health, then? If not, why and is it only a matter of time before you give up your remaining positions causing problems and transmute them too? Or would you simply relabel high blood pressure, weak kidneys, and arthritis (hypothetically speaking) as "perfection" that simply must be accepted like a square peg?

It is more subtle and I don't entirely disagree with anything you have said. What you have been stating is entirely logical and it is the standard accepted thinking - they are the exact words I have used many times in many years as a healer/energy worker/seer.

 

We see ourselves as "in need of healing", we see our doing as "when this is fixed", we see our sickness as happenstance or an after thought to our actions.

 

Sickness is caused by us - and we largely steer our selves to it in our identifications. Most sickness is a healing in itself. We do not ask "why did I create this arthritis" - or "what is this addiction to alcohol" - in our minds we are afflicted with it - it is a blockage.

(It even physically looks like a blockage and is in a sense just like the square peg Ina round hole).

 

Everything - everything one is going through is created just for you - perfectly in agreement with you and the entire universe - it may certainly be that this is not visible to all of us - but none the less this is true - it is not a belief system based opinion.

 

A river will work upon a rock and wear it away - the river does not release the rock - and the rock does not release itself - the movement of the water and sediment has ground it away.

 

At the time of a healing it will appear that the healer is there healing - it will appear the sick person is releasing - and the two of them are certainly mixed in activity - but what is occurring is the final ebbing of one cycle and the initiation of other cycles. And if it was not the final ebbing the person would "not be getting well".

 

My objective here is not to "win" an arguement with you but for you to see through the obscuration of what seems obvious into an entirely different arrangement.

 

I am used to the arguements and language you are using - this new awareness has changed everything but I have not yet found all the words to share it - so please forgive me. However for many years now my "healing work" has been on a completely different level than what you are talking about - I have been working in this way for many years.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Spotless

[gendao]

It is more subtle and I don't entirely disagree with anything you have said. What you have been stating is entirely logical and it is the standard accepted thinking - they are the exact words I have used many times in many years as a healer/energy worker/seer.

 

We see ourselves as "in need of healing", we see our doing as "when this is fixed", we see our sickness as happenstance or an after thought to our actions.

 

Sickness is caused by us - and we largely steer our selves to it in our identifications. Most sickness is a healing in itself. We do not ask "why did I create this arthritis" - or "what is this addiction to alcohol" - in our minds we are afflicted with it - it is a blockage.

(It even physically looks like a blockage and is in a sense just like the square peg Ina round hole).

 

Everything - everything one is going through is created just for you - perfectly in agreement with you and the entire universe - it may certainly be that this is not visible to all of us - but none the less this is true - it is not a belief system based opinion.

Well, I would actually agree that we do subconsciosly choose and create all our own "blockages" - and not dismiss them as random happenstances at all. To me, they are usually due to mental misassociations or lingering reactions to past trauma, etc. For example, you could believe money is evil and so manifest poverty. Or, being strong and able got you drafted into war in a "past life," so now you become weak and feeble instead. Etc etc... There are innumerable ways to disown innumerable parts of ourself - thus "blocking" them off and creating "blockages."

 

But I guess I would still define all these various manifestations as symptoms of their underlying "issues," and not part of their "healing" process. Although perhaps you take the longer view and see them all as part of the painful lessons that help us to correct course in the long run?

A river will work upon a rock and wear it away - the river does not release the rock - and the rock does not release itself - the movement of the water and sediment has ground it away.

 

At the time of a healing it will appear that the healer is there healing - it will appear the sick person is releasing - and the two of them are certainly mixed in activity - but what is occurring is the final ebbing of one cycle and the initiation of other cycles. And if it was not the final ebbing the person would "not be getting well".

 

My objective here is not to "win" an arguement with you but for you to see through the obscuration of what seems obvious into an entirely different arrangement.

 

I am used to the arguements and language you are using - this new awareness has changed everything but I have not yet found all the words to share it - so please forgive me. However for many years now my "healing work" has been on a completely different level than what you are talking about - I have been working in this way for many years.

Well, the problem (as I see it) with your river rock analogy is that the river doesn't always wear the rock away (unless perhaps given eons). Just like water doesn't always flush blockages through in a bathroom pipe - and a plumber must forcefully dislodge it. Otherwise, it simply backs up and overflows. And given that life is short, why waste time waiting for water to wear a boulder down, if you can just actively push it out of the way instead?

 

And no desire to argue here either... I am just trying to determine how much of our "disagreement" is merely semantics vs truly different in actual practice? And if truly different in practice - how you actually practice your philosophy and with what results?

Edited October 30, 2015 by gendao