World Peace is near (St. Malachi Prophecy)

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

my question for VM is this:

How does one acquire what is sought out of hope; does one end hope?

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Vmarco]

Far from the truth. Smarter than you think, the real meaning is all hidden in metaphors. The Bible is a big cipher.

 

 

Lovely picture!

 

 

Salvator Mundi (Leonardo da Vinci)

 

He liked praying and preaching amongst olive trees

 

The real Jesus likely look more as this:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/1282186

 

And yes,...Jesus loved praying amongst the olive trees,....like the night before he was allegedly arrest,...crying "why me, why?'

 

Can you imagine a firefighter pausing before rushing in to save someone,...crying, "why me, why me?"

[Vmarco]

my question for VM is this:

 

How does one acquire what is sought out of hope; does one end hope?

 

The more hope you let go of in your perceived life, the more fear will also weaken.

 

Don't buy lotto tickets,...it perpetuates hope. Don't watch Fox News,...it perpetuates fear. No one attached to hope and fear can realize enlightenment. No one attached to hope and fear can cross the threshold to Heart-Mind. I've never heard of a Christian without hope and fear.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

so i can repeat my question:

How?

[Vmarco]

so i can repeat my question:

 

How?

 

The idea of "seek and you will find" is pretty much BS. Likewise, seek your hopes, and more and more and more hopes will be provided for you to seek. There are more millionaires still stuck in Maslow's Lowerarchy, than most would dare to imagine.

 

how does one acquire what is sought out of hope; does one end hope?

 

From how I understand this question,,,,if you acquire all you hope for, will that end hope? No! For IMO, you cannot acquire all that you hope for,..acquiring all that you hope for is social and governmental propaganda,...work for the American dream and you'll be happy. You cannot seek hope, and wish for truth realization, at the same time.

 

You see,...fantasy TV of bad guys having great spiritual power is nonsense,...great power arises from letting go of expectations,....expectation = hope.

 

A positive desire or wish is greater than self,... it is an intentional invocation to allow Spirit to flow. Hope and the desire for things to be other than they are, arise from memory,ordinary knowledge, the Five Skandhas,... Memories or ordinary knowledge can not manifest truth,..they are nothing more than CONDITIONS repeating themselfs. A positive desire or wish arises from the Heart of ones Essence. The motive of one conscious of positive desire or wishing, is always that the subject arrive at its own harmonium.

An old acquaintance, John Davies, use to say, the universe rearranges itself to accomodate our picture of reality. It, the universe, observes, through the Nature of Spirit, that is, the Law of Frequency, what we are fascinated with, and then brings us more of it.

 

If we are fascinated with diversions, then Spirit will bring us more diversions. If we are fascinated with seeking, then Spirit will bring us more to seek. For the nature of the Law of Frequency is not "seek and you will find",...that's like saying joy is experienced through the need for joy,...seeking only precipatates more seeking, and the perception of lack precipitates more perceived lack.

 

Suppose if we are fascinated with what we don't have, then Spirit will bring us more of what we perceive we don't have. However, if we are fascinated with the love that we are, then those beliefs which cloak that love will have to dissolve, for we cannot look in a mirror with a smile and get anything other then a smile reflected in return.

 

The universe rearranges itself to bring us more of those things, on a frequency level, which we are fascinated with.

 

Our frequency signature interaction works much the same on a complex levels as a simple ones. For example, if you have a single element and view it through a spectrograph, it has a particular frequency, its spectrographic signature. If we add several other various elements to the spectrographs field of vision, and continue to observe the original element, we will see that it attracts to itself, in quality and quanity, that which it is giving off.

 

So, if we have a core emotional/belief issue in our lives, then on a subconscious level, we are broadcasting a "fascination", the core issue, and thus are attracting to ourselfs reflections/mirrors of that issue,...why,...so we can see it. And once we see it, it effortlessly dissolves and is no longer a belief/veil that obscures the real us; and our joy.

　

[RongzomFan]

You see,...fantasy TV of bad guys having great spiritual power is nonsense,...great power arises from letting go of expectations,....expectation = hope.

 

 

There are black magicians and black grimoires. Whether they are successful as they claim, I don't know.

 

This is not necessarily black magic, but the dude claims he evokes demons by following the Goetia to the letter, including the famous lion skin belt:

 

http://imperialarts.livejournal.com/

[RongzomFan]

You see,...fantasy TV of bad guys having great spiritual power

 

 

Its quite easy to get "spiritual power" literally speaking by making blood offerings and pacts with demons.

 

Its called demonolatry

[RongzomFan]

When we look at the Monks, hermits, Mystics of the tradition, who merged into Union with God, they talk about all the same phenomenon as Taoists, Buddhists, Kashmir Shaivism, Sufism, and so on.

 

 

In the tantric and yoga traditions of both Buddhist and Saiva, its all about working with the body's channels, bindus etc.

 

It has nothing to do with merging, or union with God.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Vmarco,

So your view is that there is no God?

Why do you put such effort into something which does not exist... as you say?

You say no hope, no fear...

What are you hoping to achieve on this forum?

Why are you here?

Edited February 15, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Some alternate info regarding thread...

A number of things are discussed.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/02/13/intel-dump-wednesday-february-13-2012/

Edited February 15, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

Actually, an Atheist chooses not to believe in any Gods. They're not saying, "We don't believe God exists." They're saying "we choose not to believe in anything until there is some substantial scientific proof"

I feel a need to speak to this. And I will speak for only this Atheist (myself).

 

In truth, there is no choosing. But I agree that I believe that no gods exist because I have never found any proof of their existence. So, a question like, "Which god do you not believe in?" is a rather silly question. Only trickery and word play.

 

I am a materialist and a realist. I am skeptical of many things my senses sent to my brain. I am very skeptical of almost every thought that enters my mind. That's what I call the "Show me." challenge.

 

My Atheism does not negate all the wonderful teachings found in various religions. These wonderful teachings are the thoughts of man - the philosophies prior to the philosophies being used to create the various religions.

 

But then, there are some really bad things found in religions. Especially things that tell the followers to hate and fear anyone who is not of their religion. And then you have the institutions. I have spoken against these institutions many times and I am sure I will speak against them more in the future. They are created in order to control the followers and take away as much freedom and free choice from the followers as possible.

 

A materialist Atheist did not choose to be an Atheist so that (s)he could hate the religion they were raised to believe in. NO, that's a different kind of Atheist.

 

I don't hate religions. But I can't say that about the institutions that wish to control and abuse the followers.

 

And I would therefore suggest that there will never be peace amongst all peoples as long as there are religions and the institutions that teach hate and fear. But there could be peace if everyone became a materialistic Atheist and all our judgements were based on sound virtue and logic rather than hate and prejudice.

[Vmarco]

Vmarco,

 

So your view is that there is no God?

 

Why do you put such effort into something which does not exist... as you say?

 

You say no hope, no fear...

 

What are you hoping to achieve on this forum?

 

Why are you here?

 

 

 

In this perceived reality, there is every right to sow, but none to reap what one has sown,...thus no hope and expectation necessary. My enjoyment of interacting on TTB is one of playing with words,...a fully verbal communication, with non-verbal gestures and clues to alter the communication.

 

Regardless of "my view" there simply is no god,...no belief is necessary,...belief is for those who are ignorant of a single truth. Once a single (absolute) truth is realized, beliefs release and fall aside like the layers of a dried onion.

 

Undivided Light is proof that no god exists.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/19803-what-is-light/

 

[Vmarco]

I feel a need to speak to this. And I will speak for only this Atheist (myself).

 

In truth, there is no choosing. But I agree that I believe that no gods exist because I have never found any proof of their existence. So, a question like, "Which god do you not believe in?" is a rather silly question. Only trickery and word play.

 

I am a materialist and a realist. I am skeptical of many things my senses sent to my brain. I am very skeptical of almost every thought that enters my mind. That's what I call the "Show me." challenge.

 

My Atheism does not negate all the wonderful teachings found in various religions. These wonderful teachings are the thoughts of man - the philosophies prior to the philosophies being used to create the various religions.

 

But then, there are some really bad things found in religions. Especially things that tell the followers to hate and fear anyone who is not of their religion. And then you have the institutions. I have spoken against these institutions many times and I am sure I will speak against them more in the future. They are created in order to control the followers and take away as much freedom and free choice from the followers as possible.

 

A materialist Atheist did not choose to be an Atheist so that (s)he could hate the religion they were raised to believe in. NO, that's a different kind of Atheist.

 

I don't hate religions. But I can't say that about the institutions that wish to control and abuse the followers.

 

And I would therefore suggest that there will never be peace amongst all peoples as long as there are religions and the institutions that teach hate and fear. But there could be peace if everyone became a materialistic Atheist and all our judgements were based on sound virtue and logic rather than hate and prejudice.

 

Intellectually open and beautifully written,...a richly engaging prose to read,...like looking upon a flower bud ready to release its full fragrance.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

Intellectually open and beautifully written,...a richly engaging prose to read,...like looking upon a flower bud ready to release its full fragrance.

WoW! I did all that? Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Being satisfied with the present is an antidote for expectations

 

to examine- that for which you have hopes- and find that anticipated satisfactions

are no more satisfying than the satisfaction you already have,( or can have) neutralizes the

impetus to chase other stuff.

Often folks ( including myself ) chase illusions out of habit , and knock ouselves off the perch.

The level of peace and satisfaction that one thinks they can have , or do have at any given

moment is a largely empty-arbitrary assessment.

Despite even large changes in folks lives, they tend to return to their natural level of happiness

over time if they dont continually refresh their 'reasons' to be dissatisfied.

So I believe I agree with Vmarco that one should refrain from those behaviors that amplify false expectations

or sway us away from the paradigms of our own peace.

Simply put

We tend to be our own worst enemy , so stop it.

IMO

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

From how I understand this question,,,,if you acquire all you hope for, will that end hope? No! For IMO, you cannot acquire all that you hope for,..acquiring all that you hope for is social and governmental propaganda,...work for the American dream and you'll be happy. You cannot seek hope, and wish for truth realization, at the same time. 　

 

I cannot be content without a soul mate by my side and a clear goal before my feet to pursue, together at times. I could be more content if i had no hopes left to cling to.

I could be more content to fulfill the expectations put on me by others, rather than being unable to function as required by my peers in order to continue to occupy this space.

 

 

I do not own anything in my life. so kindly, fuck you. i mean no offense, but i am quite offended.

If something doesnt give, i'll snap.

 

SOMEthing HAS to GIVE. i've got nothing to fulfill what is expected of me with. eventually that's going to cut closer, and closer, and closer, until i have to block. and the moment i block the external world, it ATTACKS me. so eventually, i will go on a rampage and harm others and possibly kill others and inevitably go down the cracks of obscurity, accomplish nothing.

 

 

OR...

 

 

Something gives, and i go on with the great sense of contentedness that i have sought, thus far in vain.

 

 

You see,...fantasy TV of bad guys having great spiritual power is nonsense,...great power arises from letting go of expectations,....expectation = hope.

 

A positive desire or wish is greater than self,... it is an intentional invocation to allow Spirit to flow. Hope and the desire for things to be other than they are, arise from memory,ordinary knowledge, the Five Skandhas,... Memories or ordinary knowledge can not manifest truth,..they are nothing more than CONDITIONS repeating themselfs. A positive desire or wish arises from the Heart of ones Essence. The motive of one conscious of positive desire or wishing, is always that the subject arrive at its own harmonium.

 

So why cant i arrive at this so called harmonium?

 

I dont watch TV. it's so senseless. if i want to watch something that senseless, at least let it be deliberate (animaniacs, search for the holy grail, monty python's flying circus, mel brooks in general, etc.).

 

SAY! IF great power comes from letting go of hope, WHY are there POLICE engaging power against the wills of innocent victims?

 

These police, i assume, are hoping to "catch the bad guy" arent they?

 

 

An old acquaintance, John Davies, use to say, the universe rearranges itself to accomodate our picture of reality. It, the universe, observes, through the Nature of Spirit, that is, the Law of Frequency, what we are fascinated with, and then brings us more of it.

 

If we are fascinated with diversions, then Spirit will bring us more diversions. If we are fascinated with seeking, then Spirit will bring us more to seek. For the nature of the Law of Frequency is not "seek and you will find",...that's like saying joy is experienced through the need for joy,...seeking only precipatates more seeking, and the perception of lack precipitates more perceived lack.

 

so in other words, for the first time in my life, my fascination with life, death, mortality, and eternity are seen by me as the cause of all my goid damned motherfucking problems?

 

 

 

im starting to believe you're on some acid.

 

 

 

Not that it's a bad thing, but boy howdy! i cant see what you say you see.

I cant even see you seeing it honestly, but im not calling you a liar either. just dont know, cant know.

Suppose if we are fascinated with what we don't have, then Spirit will bring us more of what we perceive we don't have. However, if we are fascinated with the love that we are, then those beliefs which cloak that love will have to dissolve, for we cannot look in a mirror with a smile and get anything other then a smile reflected in return.

 

The universe rearranges itself to bring us more of those things, on a frequency level, which we are fascinated with.

 

Our frequency signature interaction works much the same on a complex levels as a simple ones. For example, if you have a single element and view it through a spectrograph, it has a particular frequency, its spectrographic signature. If we add several other various elements to the spectrographs field of vision, and continue to observe the original element, we will see that it attracts to itself, in quality and quanity, that which it is giving off.

 

So, if we have a core emotional/belief issue in our lives, then on a subconscious level, we are broadcasting a "fascination", the core issue, and thus are attracting to ourselfs reflections/mirrors of that issue,...why,...so we can see it. And once we see it, it effortlessly dissolves and is no longer a belief/veil that obscures the real us; and our joy.

 

God damn myself?

 

 

Free will, eternity, and such fascinating things are damning me?

 

 

I dont think i can stomach that this early in the morning...

Edited February 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Green Tiger]

Yes,...please read my Christian posts in this thread,,...the information presented was reviewed, and expressed to be 100% accurate, by several theologians and Religious Studies scholars.

 

V,

 

The information you have been presenting in this thread was previously presented in an essay titled "Christianity Uncovered" by (on second thought, I'll omit the author's name since, I'm assuming, it must be you). I couldn't find any indication that it was reviewed, praised, or condemned by any religious studies scholars, but the information has appeared verbatim here and on a number of other forums.

 

I really enjoyed your article. Particularly the information about your personal journey and impetus behind your search for salvation. I question some of your research and would like to see your sources cited, but it seems obvious you have spent some time researching this subject. Although, I think you did most of it with a chip on your shoulder. It seems that you 'hope' to discredit a religion that you don't like. And haven't liked since childhood.

 

That statement indicates that you haven't reduced all the world's ills to its lowest denominator,...Christianity. When the Christian Meme gets assigned to the back walls of museums, where it belongs, there will be quantum leaps in economics, government, etc.

 

For example,...currently in America, not a single person in Congress puts their oath to the US Constitution before their faith based agendas. Without Christianity, the Tea Party, who enacted over 40,000 new laws throughout America last year, will dissolve like a crystalized lump in water.

 

Christianity is certainly not the lowest denominator of the world's ills. And that statement is also indicative of a prejudice that goes back to your childhood.

 

Even funnier, is those who (no insult intended) who believe they know what Christ was about.

 

Historically speaking, the prototype of a personified Christ was developed by Paul’s followers and aristocratic admirers from the Talmud stories of Yeshua Ben Stada, the locally notorious Yeshua [Jesus] the Notzri [Nazarite]. This Jesus, born in 7 BCE during a Jupiter–Saturn conjunction, had a stepfather known as Joseph and a mother named Mary. On the eve of Passover in 28 CE, he was convicted of sedition by Pontius Pilate and subsequently hanged. His hanging was not the planned means of death, but proceeded because those who were to stone him were late. Since the end of the day was near, which would have postponed his burial until after Passover, the soldiers allowed the alternative death by hanging. Following his death, his followers dubbed him the Passover Lamb.

 

A Nazarite or Notzri, meaning consecrated, was a Jew who took the ascetic vow described in Numbers 6:1–21. Among famous Nazarites was James the Just, whom the Ebionites revered as the legitimate apostolic successor of the Nazarites. Jesus the Nazarite (not of Nazareth or Galilee) is probably the same Jesus whose sayings were collected by Didymos Judas Thomas in the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas. This Gnostic or cardio-centric gospel of "secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke" appears to have been compiled in response to Paul’s new cerebro-centric religion. Both the Gospel of Thomas and the Epistles of Paul predate the canonical gospels by at least a generation. Neither the Gospel of Thomas nor the Q source contained a crucifixion, the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of others; a resurrection; or a personified Christ. Thus they conveyed nothing that would support the divinity of Jesus, which later became one of the core beliefs of the new Christianity.

 

Some very interesting points. In your historical account you neglected to mention that Jesus (aka Yeshua Ben Stada, Yeshua the Notzri, although these terms seem to be somewhat disputed) was baptized by John the Baptist. That account, which appears, in some form or other, in all four of the canonical gospels is one of the few events concerning Jesus about which there is little dispute of its historical truth. Hence, its inclusion in the gospels is not a fabrication. It must be part of the 5% of genuine information you allow, yes?

 

As a Religious Studies major I could read, write, and regurgitate some Latin,...however, I'd rather be a caretaker on Putuo Shan, than the last Pope of the Christian meme. Christians will need much help after they realize that everything they thought was meaningful is actually meaningless,...and from that, a Birthing of Human Beingness will spawn.

 

After reading through your authoritative assertions that you can know or perhaps 'gnow' if someone (historical figures included) are enlightened or not, you must be an enlightened sage in addition to a religious studies major, no?

 

Look at it like this,...most serious Religious Scholars today understand that Christianity is a meme. For example, in the 1980s, a biennial gathering of Biblical scholars concluded that only the word father could be traced to Matthew’s so-called Sermon on the Mount. The greater part of the sermon consisted of words placed in Jesus’ mouth by others long after he was dead. During that same period in the 1980s, over a hundred Bible scholars at another seminar agreed that Jesus never promised to return and that he never had any intention of starting a religion. Commenting on these scholars’ conclusions, the Jesuit Rev. Edward Beutner said, "These are not maverick scholars; they take a very careful approach to how sayings were transmitted and evolved in the Bible texts."

 

I found a newspaper clipping about this gathering of Biblical scholars that took place in Sonoma, California. Unfortunately it did not mention how they came to their conclusions. It appeared to me that they simply took a vote, which means it is simply stated their opinions. There were not that many of them either. 40 or so, I think, and there was some dissension. If you have a more thorough account of what took place there, I would be interested in reading it.

 

Also interesting to note, the Jesuit Rev. Edward Beutner was removed from service in 2002 for allegations of sexual abuse.

 

 

Sciolistic Christians vaunt that the historian Josephus, in two remarks that have been taken out of context, verifies that Jesus/Yeshua existed. Today, however, even conservative scholars agree that those quotations from chapters 18 and 20 of the Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews, were later Christian interpolations. Such conclusions are consistent with Origen, an ante-Nicene father, who in the third century CE indicated that such a declaration from Josephus of a Jesus Christ did not exist in his copy of the Jewish Antiquities. Furthermore, no one else before the fourth century CE ever mentioned such an important reference from this often-cited source.

 

I am not an expert on the subject of Flavius Josephus and his writings, but I remember learning (in one of those college courses on Christianity you recommended) that Christians interpolated a physical description of Jesus into his writings. I thought it seemed then that there were other references that were determined to be genuine. I'll have to defer to Wikipedia for that information:

 

 

From the Wikipedia entry "Josephus on Jesus":

Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" ^[4] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.^{[5][1][2][6][7][8]} Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic.^[9][10][11]

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.^[12][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation.^{[12][13][14][15][16]} Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear^[17] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.^[16]

The references found in Antiquities have no parallel texts in the other work by Josephus such as the Jewish War, written 20 years earlier, but some scholars have provided explanations for their absence.^[18] A number of variations exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the deaths of James and John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.^[9][19] Scholars generally view these variations as indications that the Josephus passages are not interpolations, for a Christian interpolator would have made them correspond to the New Testament accounts, not differ from them.

 

It seems that Josephus does corroborate some of the information from the gospels.

 

Gnosticism, the original form of Christianity, arose from a Greco-Egyptian philosophical fusion, as mentioned above. Gnosticism was an important part of the neo-Christian construct. Gnosis was not an outgrowth of neo-Christianity, as revisionists suggest. Today’s Christian persuasions are a product of Gnostic Christianity, not the other way around. We could say that Christianity was built on the DNA of Gnosticism. This neo-Christian fabrication from Gnosis and Krst, from gnowledge and the Anointed One, can also be substantiated through the Book of Enoch, from which over a hundred phrases were introduced into the New Testament. Enoch was written before 170 BCE, and several Aramaic copies were purportedly found among the Dead Sea fragments of the Gnostic gospels from Qumran. These Gnostics, from the time of the Julian clan of emperors, maintained that Christ was not a man in human form, as claimed in the gospels, but an individual goal of an initiate to realize a Christ Consciousness, the Logos.

 

The word Christos, referring to an "awakened one," crept into Greek subculture during the fifth century BCE, and this word can be found in the works of classical writers, such as Aeschylus and Herodotus, the father of history.

 

The Logos represents a mystical rebirth without sexual union, an awakening to a reality beyond duality, a palingenesis from the dream of perception. Duality is inherently a sexual reality, in which consciousness is fragmented. Christ Consciousness is an unfragmented consciousness, in which there is neither hope nor fear. The Jesus as defined in the gospels could not have been a Christ.

 

Jesus the Nazarite (not of Nazareth or Galilee) is probably the same Jesus whose sayings were collected by Didymos Judas Thomas in the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas. This Gnostic or cardio-centric gospel of "secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke" appears to have been compiled in response to Paul’s new cerebro-centric religion. Both the Gospel of Thomas and the Epistles of Paul predate the canonical gospels by at least a generation.

 

Christianity isn't a thing one can understand through sound-bites,...a quote here or a quote there,...but as the whole of all information, whose only rational conclusion is that Christianity is 95% fabrication.

 

I'm very interested in what you have to say about the foundations of Christianity and the Gnostic thought and mythology that influenced it. I agree that the collected saying of Jesus known as the Gospel of Thomas seems to have many examples of Gnostic thought. And, it is important to note that that book is also probably one of, if not THE earliest recording of the teachings of Jesus. It's not surprising that it would appear as a collection of sayings. The sayings of Jesus were probably transmitted orally in the first few years after his death and for the written recordings to evolve from there first as a collection of sayings is predictable. The narrative accounts came after, and were probably less accurate.

 

I see now that you state that 95% of CHRISTIANITY is a fabrication, not the gospels. I'm sorry for my confusion. I still think your number is arbitrary, but I don't find it as outrageous when directed at the religion as a whole. I find a lot of profound wisdom in the gospels (both canonical and apocryphal) that I suspect originated with Jesus and I find it very hard to believe that most the teachings credited to him were fabricated by later authors.

 

So, considering the Sermon on the Mount, less than 1% can be seen as factual.

 

In the first century of the Common Era (CE), a traveling sage taught among the people in the Middle East. He performed numerous works and miracles. He healed the lame and the paralyzed, raised the dead, and cast away evil spirits. This prophet taught a way of salvation and the laws of the only true god. This prophet was said to have been born of a virgin, and it was said that he had walked on the Sea of Erythra (the Red Sea). He was esteemed by many as the Son of God, although he claimed to be only a son of man. He was arrested for inciting the people, and after his death, it was alleged that he had risen from the dead, walked with his followers, and then ascended to heaven.

 

If one’s roots or foundations are permeated in falsity, then even common sense suggests that one’s life will be equally as false. For truth is not an invention, and truth is not a consensus reality born from a fixation with self-authenticating holy books devised by our flat-earth ancestors. Truth is not a thing to be discovered, but a reality to be uncovered. There is no liberation until false beliefs are confronted forthrightly and dissolved.

 

I couldn't find any information on how the gathering of Biblical scholars you refer to came to the conclusion that only one word from the sermon on the mount was genuinely from Jesus. This seems like something that would be near impossible to verify with any certainty. I would like to see the source.

 

Even if it were true that only 1% of the sermon on the mount was genuine, I don't think you can make the conclusion that the whole religion is based on fabricated lies. By their fruits shall you know them.

 

Obviously, corruption and evil has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus, but I attribute that to people misusing Jesus and twisting his teachings and also using the teachings of the Jewish prophets who came before him as though they were equal with his. I agree that he probably did not intend to create the sort of cult that grew after his death and he would be appalled to discover what a mess has been made in his name.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Green Tiger

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The Tao has no relationship with god. The Tao Is,...god is not.

For you to be able to subjectively and experientially know whether this is true or not, would have required you to both have direct experience within the Esoteric Christian Experiences, and those of Taoism. Anything other than that becomes biased subjective abstractions/projections.

 

I personally know Christians who experience the same Unconditioned just the same as the Taoists I personally know who also speak of this. It's all the same.

 

The Buddhas are simply aware that there is no gods. No need for belief or non-belief. Undivided Light is proof that no gods exist

Buddha could have refrained from calling the Unconditioned as "God" because that would have created Duality and confusion within his systematic framework of experientially and directly discovering the Supreme for yourself. It may have been a calculated approach

 

From Wiki: Gautama Buddha did not endorse belief in a creator deity,^[1][2] refused to express any views on creation^[3] and stated that questions on the origin of the world are worthless.^[4][5]

Yet the questions of the origin of the world and how the Universe(s) came about is a legitimate area of study, and are taken serious by various branches of science and Academia the world over. Buddha was merely ascribing to people to see for themselves what he discovered, and let go of everything else.

 

Considering, all of us here on Taobums, and people in general, live their life in a "seemingly" dualistic state (Illusion), then it is only natural for the collective to personify or objectify the "Unconditioned", at least in the beginning. Even you have probably done so early in your path, as have I.

 

Self proclaimed Esoteric Mystical Experiential Christians can speak of "Union/Merged Experience" as the unconditioned all they wish,...but it will never make it so.

Speculation and projection. Unless you have experience in this culture, which allows you to balance and compare against your experience in other culture(s), or personally know individuals in these cultures who have similar experiences, it ends up being all division/duality/semantic based speculations.

 

There is no Unconditional "Union/Merged Experience." Union/Merged Experience is always part of delusional reality,...that can only be experience through the conditions of Union/Merged Experience.

When I experience the Unconditioned, in retrospect, to the perspective of the Ego mind, there is definitely a feeling of perspective relative to the mind of at first being separate from the Unconditioned, and then being part of (where there are no borders, no boundaries, pure, clear, prior to mind and everything else)

 

It's easy to see how other cultures would describe this as "merging" with the Absolute or Unconditioned. Esoteric Christianity isn't the only culture that ascribes the word "merging" to the "Unconditioned."

 

Whole is beyond the sum of opposites,...there is no union or merger with conditions. Before entering the Unconditional, all conditions must cancel each other out.

That's exactly what they're saying in the Esoteric Christian culture. Dark Night, Grace, Discernment, Wisdom, Purification, Mantra, and a slew of other practices and experiences exist for the sole purpose of letting go of, surrender of all conditions, which then allows the Unconditioned to shine bright. The Cloud of Unknowing. Unknow everything, and eventually everything becomes Gnown.

 

As a former Religious Studies scholar, whom members of the Westar Institute said, not 20 people in the world understood Early Christianity as well,..I can assure you, that there is nothing in the NT that "points to a direct experience of the Unconditional."

Through a glass darkly has thou thus seen. Your word, and that of the Westar Institute, is but 1 angle. If you look at the Esoteric Experiential Branches, the documented experiences of those therein, you will see mention of experiences of the Unconditioned.

 

When Jesus says, "I and the Father are One." Replace "Father" with "Unconditioned". "I and the Unconditioned are One" All of sudden we have a nondual and Taoist applicable statement.

 

If "Kingdom of Heaven is within you" refers to the place where the Unconditioned is, then Jesus is saying to begin by looking within yourself....which eventually you will find the Unconditioned everywhere, unbound by within/without.

 

There's plenty more

 

Nearly everything in the NT is designed, albeit unconsciously, supports the continued inferiority of humanity. For example,

Christians say, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is idealized by Christians, it isn't Unconditional Love, but nothing more than the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs.

There is a "Love" in the Esoteric tradition, that is akin to the "Bliss" attributed to in Sat-Chit-Ananda. It is something that happens in the practice of Bhakti Yoga. A bliss filled transcendent unconditioned Love fills the individual.

 

All depends on which "angle(s)" you choose to see everything from.

 

Christians are huge advocates of hope,...but what is hope? Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope? hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

Do you have any kids? Do you "hope" the best for them? For your parents? For your friends?

 

Are you aware that many aspects of the NT cater to beginners? In the depths of the Estoteric Christianity, there is no longer any hope necessary, there is only Being, the Unconditioned, a total surrender and Letting Go. When JEsus was on the verge of being Crucified, he even said paraphrased, "Not my will, but your will be done." Akin to the allowance and surrender to the Unconditioned state to do, be as it will.

 

Hope is something everyone goes through. I once hoped I can understand what Koans were all about. I'm sure you've hoped in the past as well. For those still wrapped in ego, Hope is a powerful sword to cut through negativity. Positive energy, inertia for change. When I had a family member(who still had kids to raise) close to physical death in the hospital, I never once brought up taoist/buddhist discussion on the nature of reality/mind/ego. Instead I brought up hope, to fight on, to live on ...and that woman made it and learned a valuable lesson from that experience.

 

Hope has its place and exists for a reason.

No enlightened being would discuss hope as something to be embraced. Tilopa, a great enlightened being from the 12th century said,...the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear.

I guess there are rules now on what an Enlightened Being can and can't say? Ohhhh ..kayyyyyy! (context is everything)

 

Everything is relative. There are people who need to start with hope, because they wouldn't understand what Tilopa meant. In many instances, Hope is used to progress, hopefully to a place where they can comprehend the depths of Tilopa's teachings.

[RongzomFan]

Yet the questions of the origin of the world and how the Universe(s) came about is a legitimate area of study, and are taken serious by various branches of science and Academia the world over.

 

 

Seems like you are a realist (buddhist definition).

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26462-being-a-realist-buddhist-definition-is-not-good/

[RongzomFan]

"God"

 

 

What about Samkya etc.? Speak to all the ancient Indian religious systems.

[RongzomFan]

Samkya is the foundation of all the Saiva and Vaisnava tantric systems.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

In the tantric and yoga traditions of both Buddhist and Saiva, its all about working with the body's channels, bindus etc.

 

It has nothing to do with merging, or union with God.

In Esoteric Christianity, there is both discussion of Union/Undonditioned state, as well as Channels/Bindus.

 

There are quite a few schools of thought that say the Bindu/Channels have Everything to do with Union/God/Tao/Unconditioned.

 

Ramana Maharshi (Advaita Vednata) spoke of the "Atma Nadi", which is the Nadi that Subjective Awareness vertically falls into, and ends up in the Heart-Mind, Unconditioned State.

 

Sufism, Orthodox Eastern Christianity, and Esoteric Experiential Christianity, just to name a few, practice Heart-Mantra's, with all Awareness, Focus, Attention on the heart area, which will eventually lead the Subjective Awareness to drop down into Heart-Mind and experience the Unconditioned.

 

Same deal with various Native American cultures, who describe the heart-mind as source and attribute all of the world's problems (especially the West) as due to being stuck in the Head/Ego.

 

Also personally, I've experienced Atma NAdi, various Nadi's, the Unconditioned, and various states.

Seems like you are a realist (buddhist definition).

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26462-being-a-realist-buddhist-definition-is-not-good/

I am beyond definitions and wouldn't necessarily categorize myself as a realist. Like Buddha said:

 

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. ...or because it is spoken and rumored by many........But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it" (Paraphrased)

 

So upon observation and analysis, I've found various things through direct experience. Pre-Existence as awareness prior to the Body, Various Nadi's/Bindu's, The Unconditioned, Grace, Sat-Chit-Ananda, and the practicalities of various worldly systems of growth towards the Ultimate to be legitimate paths.

 

If some system is untrue, it will fall away of its own accord. Those that are associated with true, will remain til the end.

What about Samkya etc.? Speak to all the ancient Indian religious systems.

 

Samkya is the foundation of all the Saiva and Vaisnava tantric systems.

What about them?

 

I understand there are 100's-1000's of systems in the world. What is the end result? If it is Enlightenment, then all aboard regardless of the way there.

 

Some have gotten there through Bhakti, others Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Esoteric Christianity, Sufism ...etc etc ..the end result is the same.

 

Even still with everything I have realized and experienced, there is an openness that all of that may be wrong with further realizations.

 

At this point in my life (subject to change), it goes:

 

"The Unconditioned, Not the Unconditioned, Both, & None"

[RongzomFan]

In Esoteric Christianity, there is ......discussion of .....Channels/Bindus.

 

If that were true, I would have come across it in academic tantra books.

 

 

wouldn't necessarily categorize myself as a realist.

 

well you are a realist (buddhist definition).

 

 

Some have gotten there through Bhakti, others Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Esoteric Christianity, Sufism ...etc etc ..the end result is the same.

 

The end result is certainly not the same. And what you consider enlightenment, unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma), is just the beginning step in Vajrayana.

Edited February 15, 2013 by alwayson

[ॐDominicusॐ]

If that were true, I would have come across it in academic tantra books.

Do you think everything that's true is listed in every possible book? What bias do these academic tantric books have? Considering whatever branch of thought they come from, is where you will find your bias. Considering that Esoteric Christianity only briefly mentions talk of Nadis/Bindus, it's not something that is the focus of attention, let alone necessary to have academic volumes written about.

 

well you are a realist (buddhist definition).

Knowing and experiencing that all definitions and labels are illusion based constructs that hold no reality, how is it possible then for one to be a realist? I am not what you take me to be. Sorry friend.

 

The end result is certainly not the same. And what you consider enlightenment, unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma), is just the beginning step in Vajrayana.

The end is the same. However to know so would require one to hold a very intimate and deep understanding of the intricacies of various cultures

 

What is refer to in Esoteric Christianity, is much more than just the "beginning step in Vajrayana". The later stages are also similarly mentioned as well.

 

Goal of Vairayana:

 

Experiencing ultimate truth is said to be the purpose of all the various tantric techniques practiced in the Vajrayana. Apart from the advanced meditation practices such as Mahamudra and Dzogchen, which aim to experience the empty nature of the enlightened mind that can see ultimate truth, all practices are aimed in some way at purifying the impure perception of the practitioner to allow ultimate truth to be seen. These may be ngondro, or preliminary practices, or the more advanced techniques of the tantric sadhana.

Same goal in Esoteric Christianity.

 

Considering that VAirayana also includes Ritual, Upaya, Esoteric transmission, Vows, Tantra Techniques, Purities, Completion Stages, Diety-Guru-Death Yoga's, you would be surprised to find a bunch of similar aspects in Esoteric Christianity.

 

Same thing, different names. Same end goal.