World Peace is near (St. Malachi Prophecy)

[Birch]

V interesting post SB. I'm currently looking at Xtianity as a 'Bakti-yoga'. But I don't reckon it gets presented as such very often? In fact, does the way something gets presented change anything? The usual suggestion is it depends upon the person. The suggestion further than this is it depends on neither the person nor the teacher but the awakened mind they share.

[JustARandomPanda]

V interesting post SB. I'm currently looking at Xtianity as a 'Bakti-yoga'. But I don't reckon it gets presented as such very often? In fact, does the way something gets presented change anything? The usual suggestion is it depends upon the person. The suggestion further than this is it depends on neither the person nor the teacher but the awakened mind they share.

 

 

This is a good question. However I think any reply to this should be in a new thread and I apologize to VMarco for diverting his original post into off-topic territory. I'll likely post a response to the questions above in a new thread in the Buddhist forum tomorrow.

[Vmarco]

If I understand VMarco's stance correctly he's simply saying one has to break through all the skandas - including alaya-vinyana and until that's done no one will have seen his/her "original" nature (aka tathagata).

 

Any tradition that teaches it's students a belief or set of beliefs is practicing dwelling. Even Buddhism and Taoism! Which is why the Buddha himself always stressed his teachings were only expedient means of the moment and that his students - or anyone really - absolutely must let go of even that if they are to realize Wisdom. That's why there is no actual Buddha "Dharma" (or Taoism or Sufism, etc). They're all just training wheels of the moment. The problem with these training wheels is that they themselves - no matter the tradition - are still a form of dwelling. So eventually they'll dissolve too. If you are busy with prostations, mantra, qigong it's still dwelling.

 

But weirdly enough we use these forms to get to a point where thinking and experiencing dwelling dissolves. That's why Master Nan would say to his students: "My words are poison but without them you will not get well." He knew he was just having his students swap one form of dwelling for another one. But at least the ones he taught had the chance that someday they'd see all of it was unnecessary.

 

That's what VMarco keeps pointing to I think. And if so then Master Nan agreed. But Master Nan also said this was equally true of any spiritual tradition/student. Not just the Abrahamaic ones. Buddhists/Taoists/Confucians/Hindus are equally plagued with this problem because it is a human one.

 

Tathagata never dwells. That's why Tathagata is undivided. There's no Many and there's no One either. It's actually moot. When Many dissolves the "realization" of One also dissolves (which many traditions ascribe to as being a "Divine" Oneness to boot). They aren't denying anything. They've just realized it's moot. Realizing Oneness is an actual realization - but it's not the final one as per the Buddha or Master Nan's teachings.

 

I think that's what VMarco keeps trying to say. I just don't think he does it in a clear manner because he's so busy whacking at things he sees as people's beliefs. Maybe it would help to drop the whole 'smacking at beliefs" biz of his for a while and focus on saying things another way?

 

IMO he should drop the whole specific targeting of Christianity and Beliefs and instead start pointing to the things that Master Nan or the Buddha would point to. Simply repeating "stop believing" like a scratched record doesn't do anything to convince anyone. Sadhguru made the point to a student (when that student asked what it was like to be enlightened) that he could tell him but it wouldn't do any good because there was nothing in that student's own experience by which to relate to it. So long as that was the case it would just be another 'beautiful story' he was telling the student.

 

 

There's another thing here. Since there is no actual Dharma (Tao doesn't place conditions on things) it's silly to say no one who's a Christian or Sufi or Jew can realize tathagata. And that's why I believe Dominicus, et. al. have a point too. As long as they don't dwell it matters not what tradition they use to 'get there'. People will realize it when they realize it...and not a moment before.

 

There is little to argue about in that post,...there is no Dharma. Very good observation regarding what we call Buddha's teachings to be that which was expedient for that perceived time. If you and I were to have a conversation, it would sound much different than that with those here who support Christianity or the Abrahamic memes.

 

For most here, discussing that there is no Dharma, no Bodhisattva, no sentient beings, is an expanse few can deal with,...however, if you saw my posts as offering stepping stones, showing a way across the expanse that their beliefs have built, perhaps you would recognize the expedency of that moment.

 

Nevertheless,...dwelling on the Christian scheme is a barrier to truth realization.

 

What if however,...in a very honest way,...people related with what will never leave them, and from which they can never leave,...where would that leave the Abrahamic memes? One response could be,...why should I care,...or some (as pointed out in this thread) suggesting that truth does not speak, because truth is beyond that which speaks,...in essence suggesting that Lao Tsu or Buddha never spoke.

 

This is a discussion forum,...if one believes that there is nothing to discuss (which ultimately is true), then why be on a discussion forum. I do it for the sentences. I like writing sentences. It's what I like. I died in 1974,...and am no longer worried about that,...my hopes and dreams became irrelevant 39 years ago.

 

"Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant....on the luminous continuity of existence which has no origin and which has never died, we project all the images of life and death, terror and joy, demons and gods. These images become our complete reality, and we submit without thinking to their dance. In all the movements of this dance we project our greatest fears on death, and we make every effort to ignore it." The Great Liberation

 

[Vmarco]

 

Edit: what's a "red hat family"?

 

Being brought up in a Vajrayana 'Red Hat' household.

 

The Dalai Lama is a Yellow Hat,...Dzogchen are usually Black Hats.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Vmarco

[JustARandomPanda]

Survey question,...how many here have actually realized the Tao? That which does not come and go?

 

How many here would like to experience the Tao,...that which does not come and go?

 

Has anyone here realized what does not come and go? Have anyone here realized consciousness beyond the 6 of sentience?

 

Sentient consciousness cannot realize the Tao,...it is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

 

I certainly don't make such a claim though I am working to see "original nature".

 

However I do believe at least one Taobum (whom alas no longer posts here) has broken through all the skandas and alaya-vinyana to boot. I speak of Xabir. Despite the fact that he has done so (for various reasons I found out when away from TTB) Xabir still often misunderstood where I was coming from when we butted heads in various threads about 'tathagata'.

 

I would have to re-state, re-state, re-state, re-clarify etc in order for him to finally understand where I was coming from. Seeing original nature (ie dharmakaya) is no guarantee that one understands anyone else from reading board posts. It's easier just to ask for clarification and to keep restating if there is still confusion or misunderstanding left.

 

And yep...I agree with your last sentence although for me it is still stuck at the 'belief' stage. Someday it will not be.

Edited February 19, 2013 by SereneBlue

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

ahhhh i do not get it at all (edit: @ VM)

Edited February 19, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Owledge]

I died in 1974,...and am no longer worried about that,...my hopes and dreams became irrelevant 39 years ago.

What did you do back then?

[JustARandomPanda]

There is little to argue about in that post,...there is no Dharma. Very good observation regarding what we call Buddha's teachings to be that which was expedient for that perceived time. If you and I were to have a conversation, it would sound much different than that with those here who support Christianity or the Abrahamic memes.

 

 

Yes I think it would be a very fascinating and fruitful one.

 

 

For most here, discussing that there is no Dharma, no Bodhisattva, no sentient beings, is an expanse few can deal with,...however, if you saw my posts as offering stepping stones, showing a way across the expanse that their beliefs have built, perhaps you would recognize the expedency of that moment.

 

Yep. I can see that's what you're doing. It's what Buddha was doing, Lao Tzu, Master Hsuan Hua, Master Nan Huai-Chin, Gurunath Siddhanath and Sadhguru too. "Words are poison...but without them you will not get well".

 

Nevertheless,...dwelling on the Christian scheme is a barrier to truth realization.

 

What if however,...in a very honest way,...people related with what will never leave them, and from which they can never leave,...where would that leave the Abrahamic memes? One response could be,...why should I care,...or some (as pointed out in this thread) suggesting that truth does not speak, because truth is beyond that which speaks,...in essence suggesting that Lao Tsu or Buddha never spoke.

 

This is a discussion forum,...if one believes that there is nothing to discuss (which ultimately is true), then why be on a discussion forum. I do it for the sentences. I like writing sentences. It's what I like. I died in 1974,...and am no longer worried about that,...my hopes and dreams became irrelevant 39 years ago.

 

"Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant....on the luminous continuity of existence which has no origin and which has never died, we project all the images of life and death, terror and joy, demons and gods. These images become our complete reality, and we submit without thinking to their dance. In all the movements of this dance we project our greatest fears on death, and we make every effort to ignore it." The Great Liberation

 

 

 

I'm actually glad you're here. So far the things you've been typing actually haven't conflicted with anything I've learned about what the Buddha or Lao Tzu taught elsewhere. It's just a bit hard to "hear" you for many people because the hackles come up when you come out swinging against beliefs. Understandable of course. I dunno. I only suggested perhaps exploring another way to get your points across because

 

1. You aren't saying anything that the sages haven't said elsewhere

 

2. The "way" you word things sometimes raises (unnecessarily imo which is a darn shame ) others hackles. Perhaps if you worded things differently those whom now dismiss you might be willing to reconsider and listen more closely to what you say?

 

For example:

 

I'd point out how adhering also to Buddhist (same thing with Taoist) memes actually isn't what the Buddha (or Lao Tzu) was teaching either. It sort of "rounds out" the points you are making about the Abrahamaic religions imo. It draws the potential student's attention to the fact this problem of religions goes deeper than they at first might suppose. Which I guess is the point you're really trying to get at in pointing to beliefs.

 

But it's really hard for most people to get that. I've been studying Buddhism for close to 4 years now. And it only hit me about 3 weeks ago the things I posted in that thread above. That's how dang long it's taken for me to even "get it" simply intellectually. Alas...the experiential realization still hasn't hit yet.

 

Before realization a teacher or guide/friend helps liberate. After realization 'original nature' liberates.

 

There's lots of good stuff in your posts. I guess I'm critiquing the *way* you word things. You're like a bull in a china shop lots of times. Sometimes that's good. But other times not. There are people here whom might have been willing to listen to you - even if it pained them - if you found some other interesting or unusual ways to say what's essentially the same messages you're saying now. Trying to convince people to get out of their heads and pay attention is never a bad thing imo.

Edited February 19, 2013 by SereneBlue

[RongzomFan]

However I do believe at least one Taobum (whom alas no longer posts here) has broken through all the skandas and alaya-vinyana to boot. I speak of Xabir.

 

 

Xabir hasn't realized anything. I've known xabir online probably longer than anyone else here.

[JustARandomPanda]

Whatever Alwayson....

 

I don't find your "realization" convincing in the least either. And your arguments for "how Vajrayana is" or whatever things you've latched onto lately even less so. But you're entitled to your opinions as I am to mine and let's leave it at that.

 

 

***Mod OUT****

[RongzomFan]

Whatever Alwayson....

 

I don't find your "realization" convincing in the least either

 

I'm not the one claiming to have realized emptiness. Straw man argument.

[JustARandomPanda]

I'm not the one claiming to have realized emptiness. Straw man argument.

 

 

Fine. Straw man...whatever. I don't care. I doubt anyone else on this board cares about my opinion either.

 

Everyone else is free to think differently from me. I'm not gonna get hung up on 'being right'. If it turns out my opinion was wrong so F'n what? It changes none of the value of the other things that've been said in this thread by all the other participants. It'll only just meant I was wrong in my assessment of Xabir. Again...so F'n what (*yawn*). I'll not be the first to have ever done that.

 

Leave it at that.

 

 

**********

 

 

In any case:

 

I've derailed this thread from it's original topic enough as is.

 

So maybe now's a good time to get back to discussion of the original 'prophecy' should anyone care to do that.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Of course, silly Christians believe the prophesy, which has been quite accurate, suggests that it implies "the Second Coming of Jesus." But the prophesy makes no mention of that,...it is the END of ROME as having authority of, or stepping between sentient beings and their direct experience, thus the End of Christianity.

OKAY. so how the heck has rome got anything to do with my experience?


Is Rome already "done"?

[Marblehead]

The point is that you cannot claim 'my chair is real' because dream-chairs also seem real.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26462-being-a-realist-buddhist-definition-is-not-good/

Yes, they "seem" real. So does the boogiman under the bed. Likewise the gods in a person's thoughts.

 

I actually did have a dream last night. No Idea what brought it on. But when I woke I knew it was but a dream therfore no worries.

 

Yes, chairs appear to be real. But I promise you, if you try sitting in an imaginary chair your ass will hit the floor.

[GrandmasterP]

I realised emptiness years ago.

Dead easy, anyone can do it.

There's nothing to it.

[Marblehead]

Sure,...that's easily agreed upon,...Wisdom is the judicious application of knowledge. However, there is absolutely nothing in that statement that can lead to waking up,...save the understanding that it is dream talk, to sustain the dream.

What you stated is true, IMO, but then your conclusion is off the mark.

 

I suggest that there was already awareness (waking up) when wisdom was gained.

[Marblehead]

Being brought up in a Vajrayana 'Red Hat' household.

 

The Dalai Lama is a Yellow Hat,...Dzogchen are usually Black Hats.

I have a brown hat.

[Marblehead]

 

Xabir hasn't realized anything. I've known xabir online probably longer than anyone else here.

I clicked that I like this post. But I also like Xabir. Sure, we have our differences. But I think he has always been honest with stating his beliefs.

[Marblehead]

I doubt anyone else on this board cares about my opinion either.

Well, I do. However, when you, or anyone else, starts running off with their religious doctrine, whether it be Buddhist or Christianity or any other, I generally ignore what has been written.

 

But I will always talk with anyone about the 'real world' (in Taoism, the Manifest) and physical reality.

[林愛偉]

I have a brown hat.

 

mine's grey and another black!

[Marblehead]

 

 

 

OKAY. so how the heck has rome got anything to do with my experience?

 

 

Is Rome already "done"?

Exactly! Rome has nothing to do with your experience of life unless you are a Catholic.

 

Live YOUR life.

[Marblehead]

mine's grey and another black!

Many years ago I lost the one that had a propeller on top.

[Vmarco]

Vmarco, write a blog, man! You love to write and I like reading your information so you should make a blog.

 

Also, what is your experience in realization? What's your story? Seems like you haven't talked much about how you came to this stuff and your story of cultivation.

 

Thanks,...but a blog? As CT says, I'm still getting a handle on the English language,...so may be awhile yet.

 

As for my experiences,...recall Joseph Campbell in the 80's talking about his one and only Self-Actualization experience, while participating in a Track-n-Field event in college,...I had already had a thousand way beyond that,....in fact, could already explain Maslow's next level of Transcendence.

 

What intrigues me about TTb the most is how I have dumb down my responses, just to interact at this level. I'm not at all complaining,...it intrigues me.

 

As for my "story." Two points, which occurred rather organically when quite young. First, spontaneous transmissions, often as statements, even before 8 years old, of prior birth consciousness. And second, an ability to recognize indoctrinated beliefs, which when I did, and, for example, looked into a mirror, literally could see the difference with the baggage of beliefs removed. At 8 years old I was very much into "nudity"...not physical nudity,...but the disrobing of beliefs. Everytime time a belief was recognized, it effortly dissolved, and I'd look in a mirror and see how more beautiful I'd become.

 

I was 19 before first coming upon a truth,...up to that point, my favorite thing was recognizing the false,...still too young to realize that when all the false is recognized, there is truth. I longed for the rushes of recognizing the false,...the beauty of its feeling of nakedness,...it was as a compulsion,...going deeper and deeper,...and then there was shamatha,...a calm abiding, more blissful than the beauty of nakedness.

 

As I wrote at the time:

 

Such complete unity of separation

enfolded within a simple belief

A dissymphonic continuum

whose reflection of preference

serially esculate unremitting anguish

 

Belief obscures reality

entwines lifes learned patterns

a stupefying absurdity

manufactured from artificiality

exploitively seeking diversions.

 

Yet in a moment of unfeigned surrender

between com-pression and ex-pression

a reciprocal tremendum

resplendently springs its metanoia

dissolving repeated cycles of confusion.

 

Metmorphesized winged inner sense

true Compassion arising in the tranquility

as flowinging fractal waves delight

the blissful birthing of Beingness

in softly ecstatic nourishing Life.

[Marblehead]

What intrigues me about TTb the most is how I have dumb down my responses, just to interact at this level. I'm not at all complaining,...it intrigues me.

Well, we have to dumb you down on occasion so it appears the shoes fit several sizes.

[Vmarco]

I have a brown hat.

 

As a regular hiker, I'm partial to Tilley hats,...have dozens,...but none in red. I'll have to do something about that. I do have a red hiking parasol however.