`Does Racism/Sexism/Homophobia constitute a Personal Attack`

[zerostao]

k

I just recently decided I wouldn't sit back and not say anything

that was probably the idea i had at the moment of hitting the report button.

the post wasnt directed at me or have anything at all to do with me.

i found it completely tasteless and most likely racist, but i am back into my usual anarchy mode again.

i wonder if it woulda happened on a street corner somewhere how i woulda reacted?

reflexes maybe woulda got the best of me.

edit> sorry to hear about your loss CT

Edited February 12, 2013 by zerostao

[三江源]

if you are Happy to change it that would suit me just fine.

 

`Does Racism/Sexism/Homophobia constitute a Personal Attack`

Yes I am happy to change the title.

[Seth Ananda]

How do I change the name? I cant find the button anywhere

 

Edit: thanks

Edited February 12, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Birch]

k

I just recently decided I wouldn't sit back and not say anything

that was probably the idea i had at the moment of hitting the report button.

the post wasnt directed at me or have anything at all to do with me.

i found it completely tasteless and most likely racist, but i am back into my usual anarchy mode again.

i wonder if it woulda happened on a street corner somewhere how i woulda reacted?

reflexes maybe woulda got the best of me.

 

Well, there's some social studies out there that suggest how you might have reacted (how 'most' people might have reacted) and the answer to that is...wait for this...they wouldn't. I'll send you the book once I'm done reading if you like.

[Seth Ananda]

Lets get back on track.

 

Do Racist Sexist or Homophobic posts constitute a personal attack?

 

I say that they do, as they are attacking what someone is, personally.

[Birch]

Lets get back on track.

 

Do Racist Sexist or Homophobic posts constitute a personal attack?

 

I say that they do, as they are attacking what someone is, personally.

 

100%

[zerostao]

Well, there's some social studies out there that suggest how you might have reacted (how 'most' people might have reacted) and the answer to that is...wait for this...they wouldn't. I'll send you the book once I'm done reading if you like.

i know that most wouldnt. for better and for worse i am wired a bit differently than most.

the book thing reminds me! that book i just read about Contemporary Mayan Spirituality is the bomba.

it clearly expresses ideas/concepts/experiences that i think most of us bums would consider Taoist or Buddhist or Shaman,

it has it all, well it also has the sacrifice/head lopping stuff too, and i didnt grasp how that all works...but i can send it to ya, i owe ya one already.

@seth,

didnt mean to go off topic too far. you are raising good questions that we all need to reflect on.

edit> next post will be way on topic

Edited February 12, 2013 by zerostao

[zerostao]

seth, and everyone.

i am gonna give an example , maybe not as easily understood, but still appplies imo

i live in rural appalachia, its cool with me and i prefer it here than anywheres else.

but, us folks in the hills frequently get called hillbilly, redneck, hick, inbred, all kinds of things that

other groups ie blacks for example simply would not tolerate and becoz of the focus about discrimination against blacks,

most folks are mindful of language used around and about them.

for some reason it is still acceptable to call someone a hillbilly. i take it as the highest compliment, but many would consider it derrogatory.when the feds dea and big pharma and the banks colluded to intentionally unleash oxycontin thru-out this region, immediately terms like pillbillies and hillbilly heroin arose. such labels only fuel wildly innacurate stereotypes and belittle folks facing serious social economic problems. so i understand. and i do object when someone uses similar tactics against other groups of folks. becoz the reason they do it to us is to keep us subjected and to keep us down. to come in and rob us of our natural resources. they have used the us military to kill americans here in appalachia many times for a labor coal strike etc. but if the general public at large has been told that we are just a bunch of unruly hillbillies that wouldnt know how to take care of ourselves anyways, there wont be an outrage, the reality will never be known.

earlier today i posted a film in the facism and solutions threads about guatemala. they are not looked at as being the descendants of the Maya. they are portrayed horribly and for the same exact reasons, so they can be robbed and murdered for their natural resources. so seth, K, it is good to see you bums speak out and take action.

[Sanzon]

Hi Seth, I have appreciated your sentiments in regard to this issue. I think your point about sub categories rings true with me.

 

To apply this outside of the issues at hand, for example, to say that Islamics are all terrorists is obvious slander and is inflammatory. To use the term Islamic terrorists instead is to open the issue for a look inside and a point from which specific issues can be discussed. Over-generalization seems to me a way that things get out of hand here, and people have the right to feel personally offended and attacked.

 

Over-generalization comes from ignorance IMO, and a lack of understanding or willingness to further break things down & look at the underlying issues specifically.

 

Just my 2c.

[Birch]

I'll go check out the film. I was looking at this the other day. http://www.amazon.com/History-White-People-Irvin-Painter/product-reviews/0393339742/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R2IZ8KGMQ7H220

[Aetherous]

Do Racist Sexist or Homophobic posts constitute a personal attack?

 

I say that they do, as they are attacking what someone is, personally.

 

The thought police have arrived.

 

What about the ones who want to rid the world (or this forum) of all racist, sexist, homophobes, etc? Aren't they attacking who people are personally, as well?

 

I think so!

 

Not to say that racism, sexism, or homophobia are at all good. They are not. I don't support those things. But I support the idea of letting people be who they are. A gay person should be left as they are. Why not a homophobe? Why should that person be ostracized from a community (which is the real crime!)?

[liminal_luke]

Every once in awhile there's a thread that basically asks the question is it ok to be gay? Inevitably a few people come out (so to speak) and say things like (1) they can be that way if they want to but they'll never be spiritually advanced like me or, (2) they can be that they way if they want to but why do they have to be so darn in your face about it, or (3) here's a hundred scientific references why it's not ok, and so on. As a gay man, do I feel attacked? You bet I do.

 

I don't perceive myself as having a choice about being gay anymore than I imagine heterosexual people imagine they could turn themseves gay. I'm simply attracted to who I'm attracted to. That said, if there was a little blue pill I could take to turn straight I wouldn't take it. Why should I? Being gay is part of who I am and I am doing my best to accept and integrate all my different aspects. To me, that's what spirituality is all about and I come to taobums to get tips and assistance from others who are, in one way or another, a little farther down the path than me, and to offer assistance when I can.

 

In many ways it's more difficult to be gay than straight in our culture today just as I imagine sexism makes things harder for women sometimes and racism makes things harder for black people. But if somebody came up with a pill to magically turn black women into white men I don't think thetaobums would be clamoring for all of them to take it just because they now had a "choice." To say so would surely be hate speech. Yet nobody seems to have the same problem with people saying gay people ought to change.

 

As hurtful as these threads can be, I do my best to take it all in stride. What else can I do? I like taobums and want to stay here. Also, I have no desire to be a moderator and think that the moderators are good people who are making the best decisions they can. We just aren't at a place as a society where homophobia is as taboo as racism or sexism yet. (To be sure there's plenty of racism and sexism afoot-- including some pretty misogynistic posts here at taobums-- but for the most part it's not so cool to be upfront about such prejudices.)

 

I take solace in the conviction that homophobia is on it's way out. Yeah, it's taking it's own sweet time leaving but the direction of the future is clear.

[Sanzon]

I take solace in the conviction that homophobia is on it's way out. Yeah, it's taking it's own sweet time leaving but the direction of the future is clear.

Hear, hear.

[Birch]

Turtleshell, I think the suggestion is to remove sexism, and racism and homophobia, not the people holding these views. I gotta ask, what is being gained by holding sexist, racist or homophobic views? Or what would be lost without them? Maybe that's more to the point as a question? Of course, given I'm female, you might point out that it's only because sexism is to my disadvantage. There's a argument for that, but I'm also thinking that the advantages of removing sexism, racism and homophobia will (paradoxically) result in the type of society that racists, homophobes and sexists actually want for themselves. Bear with me and I'll get back to you on this one:-)

[Aetherous]

Holding hate or fear in your heart has no benefit.

[Vmarco]

But Back to my topic.

 

Do Sexist Racist or Homophobic attacks constitute a personal attack?

 

I have presented a solid set of arguments as to why they do, so if they do not, please describe how...

 

Although repetitious, I'll chime in with this,...yes,..."Sexist Racist or Homophobic attacks constitute a personal attack",...even if it's not personally directed. As you said, "they are attacking what someone is, personally." A persons sex, gender identity, race (although race really doesn't exist per se), or sexual perferences, are not indoctrinated beliefs,...but the inherent characteristic of the vehicle (body) they are using. It is their Life.

 

IMO, the insane groupthink of binary gender plays a large part in sexism, gender identity, and homophobia. The idea of binary gender is as ridiculous as the concept of race. There are at least as many gender identities as so-called races. Race is an illusion, perpetuated by abhorrent thinking:

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

 

There is no White race, Black race, Brown race,...there is only the Human race.

 

One is not either male or female gender,...nor limited to male or female societal roles,...there are a myriad of gender identities.

 

Consider this....the medical profession says that an average male introduced to female hormones, experiences dramatic negative emotional changes, and cannot stay comfortably on them for more than 3 or 4 days,…whereas a transgender male has a positive emotional response... In other words....before starting hormones, some transgender males are as imprisioned within a field of negative emotional experiences.

 

Eugene Debs said, "Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."

 

I recognize my kinship with all living things,...I'm intolerant of beliefs that set between all human beings and their direct experience,...but I'm neither intolerant or tolerant of human beings,...they're human beings,...I don't tolerate them, nor intolerate them,...the essence of every one is part of the Whole. I merely argue that their beliefs are not part of the Whole.

[Seth Ananda]

The thought police have arrived.

 

What about the ones who want to rid the world (or this forum) of all racist, sexist, homophobes, etc? Aren't they attacking who people are personally, as well?

 

I think so!

 

Not to say that racism, sexism, or homophobia are at all good. They are not. I don't support those things. But I support the idea of letting people be who they are. A gay person should be left as they are. Why not a homophobe? Why should that person be ostracized from a community (which is the real crime!)?

 

Scotty, why should Racists, homophobes and sexists get special treatment about the personal Insult rule?

 

Is there something special about being sexist, racist or homophobic?

 

I don't think thats what you are implying, but it seems that people are ok with saying 'No' to personal Insults on this forum, as long as they are not Race/gender/sexual orientation related personal insults which are emphatically OK?

 

Why does moderation for rudeness only their for people who are not racist/sexist/homophobic...?

[Seth Ananda]

And I dont see it as thought police. People can think what they want, but they must be careful about what words they use to avoid violating the personal attack rule.

 

I am all for challenging and dismantling each other's beliefs, and think it is a very valuable past time, and crucial for life on earth.

 

But these are the thought related pursuits, and that is where the thought police, {a disgusting abhorent concept} would rear their ugly heads.

 

Once race, ones gender and ones sexual orientation are out side of 'thought' in any normal definition of the word.

[Aetherous]

I think what I wrote should answer any questions about what I wrote...not to sound rude, Seth...but please try to fully comprehend my words instead of assuming I'm on the opposite side of a debate.

[liminal_luke]

I think it all revolves around the question of what we mean by "personal." As far as I can tell the policy at present is that comments that might be hateful (sexist, racist, homophobic, etc) about a group are permitted, but hateful comments about an individual taobum are not. If I post a topic entitled "Why are straight men such pigs?" it would probably be permitted at least a brief life before thrown into the pit. Conversely, a topic like "why is taobums member X such a pig" would get me suspended.

 

Moderators: do I understand this right?

[RyuuKyuzo]

Hmm? Is there rampant racism and homophobia in the taoist community around here?

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree Seth fantastic topic.

I like Stephen Fry's thoughts...

Racism is everywhere.... I don't think there is a solution. (see below)

Sexism... yep

Infanticide... yep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OQRKKF3LgSM

I think V.... and yourself should really push the boundaries with this one...

Speciesism!! the worst thing of all and is EVERYWHERE!

We are all human? that is supremacist thinking...

We are all ANIMALS!!

We need to extend these RIGHTS - FREEDOM TO ALL!

Paul Waldau writes that the overriding of animals' interests was traditionally justified by arguing that they existed for human use; Aristotle made this claim in the 4th century BCE, as did Cicero in the 1st century CE.^[4] The term "speciesism," and the argument that it was simply a prejudice, first appeared in 1970 in a privately printed pamphlet, titled "Speciesism," written by British psychologist Richard D. Ryder. Ryder had written three letters to The Daily Telegraph in April and May 1969 with criticisms of animal experiments, based on incidents he had witnessed in laboratories, and thereafter joined a group of intellectuals and writers in Oxford – the nascent animal rights community, now known as the Oxford Group. One of the group's activities was writing and distributing pamphlets about areas of concern; the pamphlet about speciesism, written to protest against animal experimentation, was one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism








Billions every year! disgusting. "Humanity" what a joke.... Edited February 12, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[suninmyeyes]

Racism , homophobia and sexism do constitue personal attack . If want peaceful coexistance -- these have no place for expression .

Idea of communicating in friendship (mentioned earlier on in the thread )is really good . It a huge warm and flexible space ranging from agreements , inqisituivness to disagreements in a spirit of discussion , rather than a competition or mental martial arts .

Edited February 12, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[safi]

Good post White wolf. You posted a video about liberal hypocrisy. Perhaps the most hypocritical thing which is frequently said in these so called "liberal" circles is the phrase "we are animals". They say this to justify things such as licentious behaviour and lack of control in general.

 

Funny thing is that these same people believe in human rights, protecting the weak, democracy, gender equality etc... Where do you see this in nature? If we truly are animals then rape, murder and discrimination are also acceptable.

 

Anything goes in nature... Survival of the fittest! So I would be careful about labeling humans as animals.

Edited February 12, 2013 by safi

[zerostao]

Hmm? Is there rampant racism and homophobia in the taoist community around here?

i dont see rampant but i do see spotty remnants. this is a great site. some of us have been on here for years.

there is a good reason for that.