`Does Racism/Sexism/Homophobia constitute a Personal Attack`

[Seth Ananda]

This forum has clear rules on No Personal Attack.

 

Yet Racism, Sexism and Homophobia continually slide past the Mods and go unpunished, due to what I believe are unclear laws on this Issue.

 

 

My Argument is that racist, sexist and homophobic posts, actually do constitute a personal attack, and thus should be clearly added within the forum rules on civil discussion.

 

 

Ones race, gender, and {usually} ones sexual orientation are something you have absolutely no control over.

 

Also race, gender and sexual orientation are part of who you are, personally.

 

 

They are not just like some set of inner furnishings either, like ones personal belief systems, cultural programming or Religion, as all of those are merely sets of Ideas and assumptions, and are totally subject to change.

 

They are part of the foundation of who you are.

 

 

So any article that says:

 

"Women all do... Gays are all like... or Blacks are all... " ...and then proceeds to paint a whole population of people in some negative light, is actually personally attacking everyone of that persuasion.

 

It is attacking and denigrating something that is natural to that person and that they have Zero control over.

 

This can Never do anything constructive. Where can a conversation like that go?

 

It leaves people feeling powerless and victimised. It destroys self esteem, and breeds bigotry and hatred.

 

It is, emphatically, a Personal Attack.

 

I say it has no place on this forum.

 

 

 

 

Now, a person might have Issue with a subgroup, within a race, gender or sexual orientation.

I have no problem with this.

 

Examples might be:

 

Extreme man hating feminists within the Female population... {gender}

Gangsta culture within poor African American communities... {race}

Straight Hate within Gay communities... {sexual orientation}

 

{and there would be lots more, examples}

 

Of course these things should be up for conversation.

They are the {temporary} result of thinking (or lack of), or cultural/sub cultural conditioning.

 

In other words they are 'add ons' to the person. They are not sacred cows. They are just beliefs, and intelligent dialogue can change them. and may be sorely needed.

 

 

 

 

Unlike issues of race, gender or sexual orientation.

 

No 'dialogue' can change these, as they are part of the person.

 

Nothing positive can come from attacking these.

 

When you attack a black man's race, it is a personal attack against him, and should see a swift response from our Lovely moderators.

 

When you attack woman or mankind, it is a personal attack on every woman or man everywhere.

 

And when you attack the gay community, it is a personal attack on every gay person in the world.

 

 

 

I believe it fits within forum rules, or at least can very easily.

 

I personally believe that it is an ethical Issue as well, that can not be ignored in social platforms.

 

We are a microcosm of the world. Lets stop grinding the self esteem of 'others' into dust.

 

Lets contribute to making a world where people feel great about being who they are, naturally.

[三江源]

Lack of respect for others.

 

Accusing rather than asking.

 

Haranguing rather than conversing.

 

Assuming and presuming rather than listening.

 

Speaking as if from a podium above others, instead as if in equal friendship.

 

Exploding personal issues all over other people, ie over reacting.

 

Refusing to daialogue after impugning others.

 

Impugning others by speaking about them, instead of to them, in a spirit of open enquiry.

 

Believing oneself to be the holder of the truth, and undermining the intelligence and perceptions of others without looking too closely at what they might actually be saying or embodying.

 

Assuming the worst - being cycnical about others.

 

Making others feel unwelcome.

 

 

Having no sense of humour or heart toward those with whom one disagrees.

 

Snide remarks.

 

Taking pot shots from under cover.

 

There are so many ways that attack takes place.

[Birch]

Great suggestions Seth. What about the situation where a poster claims to be diminishing another's 'ego' for their own good (ostensibly the good of the person on the receiving end of the diminishing). Are you calling a situation like that a case of 'add-ons'?

 

[三江源]

Carrying baggage forward from week to week, day to day, so that you get a little vendetta going against a poster and seek to undermine them and their experience of the board.

 

This is a drip drip drip personal attack and one that is too labour intensive to be moderated. Mods dont want to suspend someone for three days, every few days, or for a week, every other week, those that habitually take the liberty to undermine co members that dont fit their mould.

 

Carrying baggage forward toward posters is against forum rules. It is very very attacking behaviour. It is cruel.

[zerostao]

baiting someone in and then ambushing them aint too cool.

i have done it myself and when i realized what i was doing , dang i felt little.

edit> also playing to the momentum that some threads have.

like one bum is fending off many bums, he seems to make one little slip and then POUNCE

ok i guess that is like ambushing again. it may get a plus 4 but was it worth it?

Edited February 12, 2013 by zerostao

[三江源]

Instead of making more rules, more detailed rules, and being more rule focused... why dont we try to go with gatitos ideas of

 

speaking in friendship

 

as the forum guideline to which we aspire.

[zerostao]

cat, that is what i have come to find here myself, speaking in friendship, even the bums i had heated exchanges with,

i always had respect for them. there was one post even i, this anarchist no rules, go with the flow and let whatever happens happen, well i reported one post here and i certainly withdraw the report , i musta had an off day i guess idk

but posts stand on their own merit or lack of. if someone puts something out there and they dont see a reason to edit it, let it stand.

and really is there a reason to have a heated exchange?

that one post i reported was really a lesson for me. why did i let it bother me?

i have never called for a bum to be suspended and i miss the ones that are, even if i do understand some things cannot be tolerated. those things are very rare too.

[Seth Ananda]

Great suggestions Seth. What about the situation where a poster claims to be diminishing another's 'ego' for their own good (ostensibly the good of the person on the receiving end of the diminishing). Are you calling a situation like that a case of 'add-ons'?

I Imagine the mods would have to decide on that Issue if it was becoming personally attacking.

[Mal]

This forum has clear rules on No Personal Attack.

 

It's actually "bigger" than that. "No personal attacks" is just the bit everyone remembers

 

 

Tao bums is a moderated, privately owned, web site; all who agree with our guiding principals are welcome to join our discussions:

 

Treat other members with respect. No personal attacks.

 

Moderators are present to enforce this, please abide by their decisions.

 

Everything (IMO) can be boiled down to "Treat other members with respect"

– launching a personal attack is just an aspect of not having respect for others

- Hate speech, which people actually agree not to do when joining the forum http://thetaobums.com/topic/19575-forum-terms-rules/?p=276820 is an aspect of not having respect for others

 

So if a ‘bum is not treating other 'bums with respect ... others should be showing them a better way of interacting.

 

If a ‘bum is just unable to treat others with respect.... well should they be a “‘bum” ?

 

Rules and punishments don’t change behaviour, having love for others does.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Mal Stainkey

[三江源]

I never thought of suspensions as punishments.

 

I thought of them as reminders to be in the community in good faith.

 

Like sometimes when I get activated by something, I take myself out for a walk to regain perspective, calm down, find my relaxed self again.

 

Agree with you Mal.

 

 

If a ‘bum is just unable to treat others with respect.... well should they be a “‘bum” ?

[Seth Ananda]

Lack of respect for others.

 

Accusing rather than asking.

 

Haranguing rather than conversing.

 

Assuming and presuming rather than listening.

 

Speaking as if from a podium above others, instead as if in equal friendship.

 

Exploding personal issues all over other people, ie over reacting.

 

Refusing to daialogue after impugning others.

 

Impugning others by speaking about them, instead of to them, in a spirit of open enquiry.

 

Believing oneself to be the holder of the truth, and undermining the intelligence and perceptions of others without looking too closely at what they might actually be saying or embodying.

 

Assuming the worst - being cycnical about others.

 

Making others feel unwelcome.

 

 

Having no sense of humour or heart toward those with whom one disagrees.

 

Snide remarks.

 

Taking pot shots from under cover.

 

There are so many ways that attack takes place.

 

 

 

hmm. this seems to be more like a 'snide' insinuation about me, Cat, than a genuine and honest look at the Issues I present.

lol.

 

Sad though, as these Issues are costing peoples lives daily.

[三江源]

hmm. this seems to be more like a 'snide' insinuation about me, Cat, than a genuine and honest look at the Issues I present.

lol.

 

Sad though, as these Issues are costing peoples lives daily.

Why would you think it is about you, seth?

 

what is snide about it?

[三江源]

cat, that is what i have come to find here myself, speaking in friendship, even the bums i had heated exchanges with,

i always had respect for them. there was one post even i, this anarchist no rules, go with the flow and let whatever happens happen, well i reported one post here and i certainly withdraw the report , i musta had an off day i guess idk

but posts stand on their own merit or lack of. if someone puts something out there and they dont see a reason to edit it, let it stand.

and really is there a reason to have a heated exchange?

that one post i reported was really a lesson for me. why did i let it bother me?

i have never called for a bum to be suspended and i miss the ones that are, even if i do understand some things cannot be tolerated. those things are very rare too.

this is a really nice post, thankyou for being so open and honest. We all get activated, dont we. Its quite weird helping to moderate the board and looking at loads of 'hot buttons' all the time... quite an education! I think the bums are a cool group for dealing with things tolerantly, on the whole. Some really good discussions arise out of unpromising beginings and other times what seems like great topics languish for lack of input...

[Seth Ananda]

Why would you think it is about you, seth?

 

what is snide about it?

Well you tell me honestly, in the spirit of friendship, if you wrote that thinking about how you feel I act or have acted?

 

If the answer is yes, then it was a rather snide way to off colour and divert this thread.

[C T]

30 Million modern slaves -- most being trafficked around the globe by sinister syndicates that fly beneath radars. Sometimes love works too well, cos there are so many vulnerable sorts who fall prey to even a little 'love'.

 

http://www.notforsalecampaign.org/about/slavery/

 

 

(sorry Seth, a bit off-t but i know it means a lot to you..)

[Seth Ananda]

But Back to my topic.

 

Do Sexist Racist or Homophobic attacks constitute a personal attack?

 

I have presented a solid set of arguments as to why they do, so if they do not, please describe how...

[Mal]

Not sure how true this is as it's from a Facebook post

 

I was recently told of an African tribe that does a most beautiful thing.When someone does something hurtful and wrong, they take the person to the center of town, and the entire tribe comes and surrounds him. For two days theyll tell the man every good thing he has ever done.The tribe believes that every human being comes into the world as GOOD, each of us desiring safety, love, peace, happiness.But sometimes in the pursuit of those things people make mistakes. The community sees misdeeds as a cry for help.They band together for the sake of their fellow man to hold him up, to reconnect him with his true Nature, to remind him who he really is, until he fully remembers the truth from which he'd temporarily been disconnected: "I AM GOOD".

[Birch]

It's actually "bigger" than that. "No personal attacks" is just the bit everyone remembers

 

 

 

So there's a lot more that falls into that 'category'. But the mods are only 3, have to rely on reports. I agree with Cat about the 'spirit of friendship' but it's clear to me too that that rides up against personal opinions in many cases. Someone (not anyone in particular) might really believe they are being friendly by pointing out others' flaws as something to improve upon or that needs work and be taken aback when it is not received as such. And not ironically where 'spirituality' is concerned it can get very personal. I'd say that's as it should be, as a living part of, well, one's life. Not an abstraction.

 

ZT, I've noticed the 'pile ons' too and I've regretted being first to call another poster on something that was directly related to their treatment of me because the pile on has followed. That definitely made me hesitate before posting, and in other cases, nothing happens at the time, but like Cat mentions above, it comes out later. In the case of the racist/sexist/homophobic stuff, I just recently decided I wouldn't sit back and not say anything.

 

 

[三江源]

Well you tell me honestly, in the spirit of friendship, if you wrote that thinking about how you feel I act or have acted?

 

If the answer is yes, then it was a rather snide way to off colour and divert this thread.

 

Divert your thread ... WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSONAL ATTACK is the thread title. ?

 

If you recognise yourself as someone who joins in with the form of attacks I outlined above, then that's good isnt it.. its coming to your awareness, in the spirit of friendship I am always glad when a friend recognises themselves.

 

There has been a significant amount of clarification amongst the mod team and ex mods here about what constitutes attack, what is insult, what drags the board away from harmony and discussion in which everyone can speak freely. I copied a lot of the issues under discussion into this thread for board discussion and to bring issues into focus. I expect you will not be alone in feeling the list speaks to them personally.

 

There is nothing in what I wrote about how I feel.

[三江源]

Not sure how true this is as it's from a Facebook post

 

wow, that is stupendously creative healing and I am sure it is very very effective.

[Seth Ananda]

Lack of respect for others.

 

Accusing rather than asking.

 

Haranguing rather than conversing.

 

Assuming and presuming rather than listening.

 

Speaking as if from a podium above others, instead as if in equal friendship.

these are personal attacks? Are you sure you are not describing one of the lengthier cut'n'pasters of this forum.

But really, speaking from a podium is a personal attack?

Exploding personal issues all over other people, ie over reacting.

 

Refusing to daialogue after impugning others.

 

Impugning others by speaking about them, instead of to them, in a spirit of open enquiry.

 

Believing oneself to be the holder of the truth, and undermining the intelligence and perceptions of others without looking too closely at what they might actually be saying or embodying.

 

Assuming the worst - being cycnical about others.

 

Making others feel unwelcome.

 

 

Having no sense of humour or heart toward those with whom one disagrees.

Having no sense of humor is a personal attack? Are you sure you are not just trying to derail this thread? If so thats pretty lousy for a Mod...

 

But I should add, that I personally, don't really have a sense of humor around bigotry. I have dead friends over this subject.

Also i work as a counsellor and see the result of it everyday in my clients.

Snide remarks.

 

Taking pot shots from under cover.

 

There are so many ways that attack takes place.

[三江源]

But Back to my topic.

 

Do Sexist Racist or Homophobic attacks constitute a personal attack?

 

I have presented a solid set of arguments as to why they do, so if they do not, please describe how...

Ah I see now why you thought I was diverting your thread.

 

Perhaps change the title of your thread to narrow it down to only the area of your interest? Or is it ok if the discussion is more free flowing?

[Seth Ananda]

Ah I see now why you thought I was diverting your thread.

 

Perhaps change the title of your thread to narrow it down to only the area of your interest? Or is it ok if the discussion is more free flowing?

if you are Happy to change it that would suit me just fine.

 

`Does Racism/Sexism/Homophobia constitute a Personal Attack`

[三江源]

these are personal attacks? Are you sure you are not describing one of the lengthier cut'n'pasters of this forum.

But really, speaking from a podium is a personal attack?

Having no sense of humor is a personal attack? Are you sure you are not just trying to derail this thread? If so thats pretty lousy for a Mod...

 

But I should add, that I personally, don't really have a sense of humor around bigotry. I have dead friends over this subject.

Also i work as a counsellor and see the result of it everyday in my clients.

Yes, you see, personal attack even is a subjective term!

[C T]

It all stems from callous ignorance. My friend who recently passed away (suicide) was a lesbian. Another friend told me that they had already met one another some 12 years ago, and felt she was always tormented inside, even though exteriorly she mostly appeared cheerful and carefree.

 

She turned to find solace in alcohol. Each time she wanted someone to really listen, it conveniently happened in alcohol-fueled surrounds, and, sadly, the problem simply compounded to such an extent where she felt the only way 'out' was to end her own life.

 

I remember Vmarco hinted something that people should kill themselves. His kind is the worst of the lot. And the cheek of it to label himself as 'superior' to others makes me want to puke sometimes. Hitler mentality, imo. What's more amazing is the fact that Cat actually step up to 'save face' for him. Life is strange.

Edited February 12, 2013 by C T