`Does Racism/Sexism/Homophobia constitute a Personal Attack`

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks for following this up! I am still reading Harmless People and the writing is amazing. Its very evocative of the people and the place ... I'd like to know more about their spiritual practices.

 

With regard to homosexuality ... there's a big difference between there being none and it not being 'permitted'. From a quick read round of what's available online it seems generally to be thought that there were gay people in every culture - and we learn even giraffes do it

 

If you know a lot about it let's have a thread in general on their spiritual practices .....

 

Yeah there is already a thread on the Bushmen spiritual practices. I'll bump it for you.

[zerostao]

[voidisyinyang]

There’s no way I could say that the Bushmen did or did not have homosexuality because I didn’t know all of them—all I can say is that among the people we knew, homosexuality was not evident. But that could be true of any given population.

 

This is the statement that Liz Thomas wants to be posted online and so can the mods delete the previous quote from her that is included in someone's reply to the quote being posted.

 

Still haven't heard back from Professor Richard B. Lee but he was part of the Harvard Group of anthropologists studying the Bushmen -- a group that Liz Thomas has criticized. So my mentioning of Liz Thomas may have ixnayed any reply from Lee.

Edited February 15, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[eye_of_the_storm]

Give it a week and use a different email address? haha

[voidisyinyang]

Give it a week and use a different email address? haha

 

Yeah actually Liz told me she is returning to the misunderstandings about her first book The Harmless People in her new book coming out this May-June. So that new book "A Million Years With Year" is a memoir of human history from the naturalist point of view. Should be awesome.

 

My experience with the field of anthropology is that there's a lot of politics going on -- I mean it's a study of social norms right? haha.

[ralis]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

wow racists must be super smart to be able to do all that human-imitating-stuff with such incredibly small brains!

We should research them more in their natural habitats!

[Apech]

wow racists must be super smart to be able to do all that human-imitating-stuff with such incredibly small brains!

 

We should research them more in their natural habitats!

 

They don't do it very well or nicely is the point.

[voidisyinyang]

Well I tried another email from a different account to professor Richard B. Lee. I cited Nancy Howell's demographics stating Lee had a "master list" of almost 900 Bushmen.

 

Lee has not responded but I titled the email Bushmen and he does not like that term - preferring "San" -- this is a continual point of contention among the academics so he might have been miffed. Besides the topic of homosexuality might not be considered important to him.

 

Regardless Lee produced studies on the marriage state of Bushmen males -- I think if Lee had discovered any homosexual Bushmen he would have documented it.

[Sanzon]

Regardless Lee produced studies on the marriage state of Bushmen males -- I think if Lee had discovered any homosexual Bushmen he would have documented it.

And how does this relate to the topic PFL. You have successfully completed the thread hijack of the century. Completely disrespectful. Thumbs down to you.

[voidisyinyang]

And how does this relate to the topic PFL. You have successfully completed the thread hijack of the century. Completely disrespectful. Thumbs down to you.

 

O.K. finally -- it's in Richard B. Lee's book so that's probably why he didn't get back to me.

 

 

A few adult men and women have experimented with same-sex sexual partners, with male homosexuality being the more common. Of the two women and six men reported to have homosexual experiences, all were married, indicating that all were bisexual. Ju'/hoan nonparticipants in these activities expressed attitudes of curiousity and bemusement toward them rather than embarrassment and hostility.

 

Lee, Richard B. The Dobe Ju/'hoansi. p. 98.

 

Well not much info there -- but definitely not full-fledged homosexuals.

[Sanzon]

Point made and interesting journey to get there too. This thread is about homophobia though, not dissecting homosexuality.

[Sanzon]

 

Point made and interesting journey to get there too. This thread is about homophobia though, not about dissecting homosexuality.

Sorry, pressed quote rather than edit.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Sanzon

[voidisyinyang]

Certain types of same-sex activity were tolerated in tribal tradition, but only as childish behaviors unworthy of an initiate. In tribes where initiation involves long periods of separation from female contact along with powerful emphasis on male group bonding (Maasai), situational homosexuality is not uncommon. When limited to mutual self-pleasuring, it is regarded as merely unmanly. Oral or anal intercourse can, however, result in expulsion from the age set, severe beatings, and disgrace. One finds some nonpenetrative homosexual behavior among Maasai askaris (guards) who have migrated to Nairobi or the coast.

 

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/ccies/ke.php#homoerot

 

So the Maasai are either homophobic or just don't tolerate homosexuality or am I dissecting too much? haha.

 

I mean are the Maasai repressing a genetic trait?

 

Kind of difficult to tell.

 

But the Dobe Bushmen that Richard Lee studied had more interaction with the Bantu who do have homosexuals -- for example some of the Bushmen speak Bantu, etc. So I think the six males who are married and "experimented" with homosexuality probably were inspired by the Bantu.

[Sanzon]

No mate, homophobic content between members of TTB, with no relation to the Massai, the Bushmen, or the Bantu. Just between us, here, now, on TTB.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Sanzon

[Apech]

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/ccies/ke.php#homoerot

 

So the Maasai are either homophobic or just don't tolerate homosexuality or am I dissecting too much? haha.

 

I mean are the Maasai repressing a genetic trait?

 

Kind of difficult to tell.

 

But the Dobe Bushmen that Richard Lee studied had more interaction with the Bantu who do have homosexuals -- for example some of the Bushmen speak Bantu, etc. So I think the six males who are married and "experimented" with homosexuality probably were inspired by the Bantu.

 

Well you started off saying that there was no homosexuality in bushmen culture but now there was some but you attributing outside influence (without evidence) on the basis that there is something wrong with those outside influences.

 

I have no idea why you are pursuing this way of thinking .... but the point is that rational justification or some kind of constructed theory around human development for saying homosexuality is somehow wrong or unnatural is as much a way of excluding or diminishing certain people as out and out homophobia although perhaps not quite as hurtful.

 

Kudos for following it up and sharing the results though.

[voidisyinyang]

Right so if there was no homosexuality for 90% of human history -- the original humans -- do you think they were homophobic? The Bushmen culture was the original source for Taoist shamanic healing.

 

For example Master Ni of Los Angeles -- originally of China - he claims that homosexuality is due to a lack of vitamin C.

 

haha. It's kind of funny but does demonstrate a clear case of what -- homophobia by a Taoist master? Or is he possibly "dissecting" homosexuality too much.

 

So now then back to the original human culture - the most genetically diverse culture -- I have found six cases of males "experimenting" with same-sex relations while they were married. http://wwwisis.unam.na/theses/edward-jauch.pdf Yeah so the group of Bushmen that Lee studied were culturally changed by the Bantu interactions: http://www.popline.org/node/327361

 

The origins of the Dobe ]Kung are defined and an ethnographic description of the population during the 1950s and 1960s and recent changes is presented. A complete statement of the research problem and study methods is given. Statistical analysis was exploratory. Women were divided into 4 groups. Single-factor analysis of variance was used to distinguish 4 types of villages: those independent of Bantu, those with herders of Bantu cattle, satellite villages on the periphery of Bantu villages, and mixed marriages in villages. Results are presented for changes in level and variability in female fertility, male preferences, male and female fertility, current patterns of village organization, trends in acculturation of ]Kung men, and the association with reproduction.

 

 

 

 

The cases of polygyny observed

by Lee mainly involved male healers. This denotes the slightly elevated position of healers in a

generally egalitarian society. It could also signal some acculturation betw

een the Ju/hoansi and

their Bantu speaking neighbours over the centuries.

Edited February 21, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Sanzon]

Yawn. Your insistance not only misses the point, but to me seems a demonstration of self importance. This thread is about interpersonal ethics, and you aren't displaying much of that in my view.

[Apech]

Right so if there was no homosexuality for 90% of human history -- the original humans -- do you think they were homophobic? The Bushmen culture was the original source for Taoist shamanic healing.

 

For example Master Ni of Los Angeles -- originally of China - he claims that homosexuality is due to a lack of vitamin C.

 

haha. It's kind of funny but does demonstrate a clear case of what -- homophobia by a Taoist master? Or is he possibly "dissecting" homosexuality too much.

 

So now then back to the original human culture - the most genetically diverse culture -- I have found six cases of males "experimenting" with same-sex relations while they were married. http://wwwisis.unam.na/theses/edward-jauch.pdf Yeah so the group of Bushmen that Lee studied were culturally changed by the Bantu interactions: http://www.popline.org/node/327361

 

 

a) you haven't got anywhere near proving that there was no homosexuality for 90% of human history ... in fact if you are using the bushmen as representing this period you would have to conclude there was some ... but you choose to 'blame' an outside group.

 

b ) the vitamin C deficiency suggests he thinks homosexuality is a disease or malfunction ... and I think its laughable anyway and would have to see hard statistical evidence to think otherwise.

 

So far you are not right ... but why do you want to be? Why do want to think this is so?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Apech

[voidisyinyang]

Yawn. Your insistance not only misses the point, but to me seems a demonstration of self importance. This thread is about interpersonal ethics, and you aren't displaying much of that in my view.

 

 

 

 

Actually you're making an error of "logical type."

 

For example on an interpersonal level people want to have more babies but it's an error of logical type not to recognize the effect is has on the group as a whole.

 

Same error you're making about homophobia.

 

I'm just pointing this out because if you don't understand the error of logical type you're probably making the same error in other situations.

 

Of course I don't expect you to understand me. haha. A good book to read on the subject though is "Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity" by Gregory Bateson - he's referencing Bertrand Russell on logical type errors.

 

But now we're really off topic. haha.

[voidisyinyang]

The Bushmen have been misaccurately portrayed due to their enslavement by the Bantus and this has been an error made in academia -- I mentioned this issue already as being addressed by Elizabeth Thomas in her forthcoming book.

 

So yeah she points out that the Bushmen studied by Lee and the Harvard Group were Bushmen more strongly affected by the Bantu culture which has homosexuality and she points out the Bushmen she studied had no homosexuality.

 

So if you look at my last reply I post the research proving that the Dobe Bushmen "male preferences" were changed by the interactions with the Bantu.

 

I'm just following the empirical evidence.

 

a) you haven't got anywhere near proving that there was no homosexuality for 90% of human history ... in fact if you are using the bushmen as representing this period you would have to conclude there was some ... but you choose to 'blame' an outside group.

 

b ) the vitamin C deficiency suggests he thinks homosexuality is a disease or malfunction ... and I think its laughable anyway and would have to see hard statistical evidence to think otherwise.

 

So far you are not right ... but why do you want to be? Why do want to think this is so?

[Birch]

"But now we're really off topic. haha."

 

There's no other OT (aside the Pit) to move this to and no thread-chopping for derailment of content either.

 

Edit:

[skydog]

My opinion on this is yeh people can regurgitate theories on homosexuality but if someone you care about has possibly bisexual tendencies on occasion, are you going to love them or consider them as somehow wrong or flawed?

 

Ive said this before on a similar thread, and the person I asked it to, couldnt honestly contemplate it, but to anyone who honestly contemplates it I think that ends the thread, period.

Edited February 21, 2013 by sinansencer

[skydog]

Just to add drew, sounded like a personal attack and you seem like a very loving person, so I doubt you have much ignorance, but yh still I kind of think this.

[voidisyinyang]

In his paper "Education

for Transcendence," Richard Katz (1976) described the careers of

trance healers as they worked through the years to gain control of

this powerful psychic resource in order to be able to use it for curing

others. In the Dobe area of Botswana today, just under half the adult

men in !Kung society and perhaps a third of the women become

n/um k"xausi, or owners of n/um (psychic power), during their lives.

(Among precontact !Kung in Namibia in the 1950's, however,

women healers were not a highly developed feature of the culture:

the later Botswana figures may reflect changing times [Lorna

Marshall, personal communication].)

 

http://w.peacefulsocieties.org/Archtext/BieHow81.pdf

 

So more evidence that the Dobe Bushmen were not the same as the Bushmen studied by the Marshalls in the 1950s.

 

 

Old men

serve as the initiators of the boys in the tshoma, a month-long male

initiation ritual held in a bush camp far from other people, where

young men endure cold, hunger, thirst, and prolonged dancing.

During this month, the old men impart to the young secrets about

the animals (Blurton-Jones & Konner 1976).

 

The tshoma being the alchemical original training for the males - celibacy, fasting and trance dancing while receiving the energy transmissions from the older masters.