Bumps on the Cultivation Path

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

You are not even a Vajrayana pracitioner.

Who cares what I am or am not.

As if a label matters in the least.

Your conceptual mind is inflated.

Quit throwing hypocritical bricks.

[RongzomFan]

Dude you don't even understand the difference between karmamudra and kagyu. Seriously get a reality check.

[RongzomFan]

You should learn to understand what you read.

 

These are your own books that you cited.....

Clear Light of Bliss

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"stop all inhalation and exhalation"

"We remain concentrated like this without breathing until we are to feel discomfort. Then, just before exhaling..."

"This entire visualization is done while holding the vase breath. Just before it becomes uncomfortable to hold any longer, we release the breath..."

"holding a vase breath"

Bliss of Inner Fire

"holding the vase breath"

"Lama Tsongkhapa says that you should hold the vase breath with strong concentration during all exercises. This is important. If you don't hold your breath during the exercises, you can hurt yourself in various ways."

"If someone falls from a great height, such as from a five-story building, they won't die or even be badly hurt if they hold their breath in the correct way."

"Do the vase breathing in a reasonable way, holding your breath according to your ability."

"There is no point in rushing through them just to get a reputation for doing all five exercises in one breath."

"With the third step, while holding the breath"

"Hold your breath and tense the upper and lower muscles for as long as you can"

"There are various ways to assess your progress in vase breathing. Kagyu practitioners have a method of timing the vase breath in which you.....Being able to do 108 of these while holding a vase breath is considered a sign of great success.....For advanced yogis and yoginis, there is no question of counting; they can hold their breath for an extremely long time."

"Finally, we come to the fourth step. When you can no longer comfortably hold your breath, you should exhale through your nostrils"

Edited February 17, 2013 by alwayson

[Pero]

I'm afraid none of those quotes really explain well how it is. It certainly is not a mere holding of the breath. In any case it is something that will be extremely difficult to understand just from reading a book (or explain through words), if not impossible. IMO, like many things, it's something that must be experienced.

[RongzomFan]

I'm afraid none of those quotes really explain well how it is. It certainly is not a mere holding of the breath.

 

 

Clear Light of Bliss

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"stop all inhalation and exhalation"

"We remain concentrated like this without breathing until we are to feel discomfort. Then, just before exhaling..."

"This entire visualization is done while holding the vase breath. Just before it becomes uncomfortable to hold any longer, we release the breath..."

"holding a vase breath"

Bliss of Inner Fire

"holding the vase breath"

"Lama Tsongkhapa says that you should hold the vase breath with strong concentration during all exercises. This is important. If you don't hold your breath during the exercises, you can hurt yourself in various ways."

"If someone falls from a great height, such as from a five-story building, they won't die or even be badly hurt if they hold their breath in the correct way."

"Do the vase breathing in a reasonable way, holding your breath according to your ability."

"There is no point in rushing through them just to get a reputation for doing all five exercises in one breath."

"With the third step, while holding the breath"

"Hold your breath and tense the upper and lower muscles for as long as you can"

"There are various ways to assess your progress in vase breathing. Kagyu practitioners have a method of timing the vase breath in which you.....Being able to do 108 of these while holding a vase breath is considered a sign of great success.....For advanced yogis and yoginis, there is no question of counting; they can hold their breath for an extremely long time."

"Finally, we come to the fourth step. When you can no longer comfortably hold your breath, you should exhale through your nostrils"

[RongzomFan]

Namkhai Norbu - "One of the most important means towards this aim is the practice of kumbhaka, a special method of holding the breath"

 

Namkhai Norbu - "The method for mastering kumbhaka.......a cycle of four for the inhalation, six counts for the closed hold and a cycle of four for the exhalation and empty hold. Then the inhalation remains at one cycle while the closed hold increases to two cycles etc. "

[Pero]

Namkhai Norbu - "One of the most important means towards this aim is the practice of kumbhaka, a special method of holding the breath"

You don't say...

In any case it is a secret thing. Although now that I think about it I guess next to secret it could also be called self-secret.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

These are your own books that you cited.....

Clear Light of Bliss

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"holding the vase breath"

"stop all inhalation and exhalation"

"We remain concentrated like this without breathing until we are to feel discomfort. Then, just before exhaling..."

"This entire visualization is done while holding the vase breath. Just before it becomes uncomfortable to hold any longer, we release the breath..."

"holding a vase breath"

Bliss of Inner Fire

"holding the vase breath"

"Lama Tsongkhapa says that you should hold the vase breath with strong concentration during all exercises. This is important. If you don't hold your breath during the exercises, you can hurt yourself in various ways."

"If someone falls from a great height, such as from a five-story building, they won't die or even be badly hurt if they hold their breath in the correct way."

"Do the vase breathing in a reasonable way, holding your breath according to your ability."

"There is no point in rushing through them just to get a reputation for doing all five exercises in one breath."

"With the third step, while holding the breath"

"Hold your breath and tense the upper and lower muscles for as long as you can"

"There are various ways to assess your progress in vase breathing. Kagyu practitioners have a method of timing the vase breath in which you.....Being able to do 108 of these while holding a vase breath is considered a sign of great success.....For advanced yogis and yoginis, there is no question of counting; they can hold their breath for an extremely long time."

"Finally, we come to the fourth step. When you can no longer comfortably hold your breath, you should exhale through your nostrils"

 

Hi Alwaysoff,

Is that your level of scholarship? You cut and paste sentences, totally out of context and focus on the fact that the words "holding your breath" are in the instructions? LOL

 

Tell you what. Take a deep breath and hold it. Getting hot? Any inner fire? There are many breathing cycles in pranayama, a classic one is 1-4-2. They do not produce heat below the navel. They make you sweat, give you the shakes and purify, but khumbaka is not tummo, it is a subset, one small step in the practice of tummo, like I have stated.

 

You totally neglected the aspects of focusing the mind below the navel, directing the winds, mixing in the saliva prayu, then releasing the locks and taking the heat up the central channel (sushumna)..

 

Ok. So you're going to drag me through the mud of your ignorance.. For the sake of others here, here we go:

 

This is what The Bliss of Inner Fire says:

 

Vase Breathing Meditation

 

As I mentioned earlier, Having the Three Convictions lists vase breathing meditation as the first of the six hatha yoga exercises, although Lama Tsongkhapa describes it only briefly in that section.

 

Vase breathing is not an insignificant practice. The other five hatha yoga exercises are performed while holding the vase breath, and, most important, the inner fire meditations are performed on the basis of this breathing technique. Successfully bringing all the airs into the central channel and stabilizing and absorbing them there depend upon vase breathing.

 

DISPELLING THE IMPURE AIRS

 

Before attempting to practice vase breathing, you should first dispel all the impure airs with the nine-round breathing exercise.

 

Holding your left nostril closed with the back of your right index finger, breathe in slowly through your right nostril. Then block your right nostril with the front of the same finger and exhale through your left nostril. Think that you are breathing out all your impure desire energy. Do this three times. Actually, you don’t need to hold the nostril closed; you can just visualize the air leaving through the other nostril. Now do the reverse, breathing in three times through the left nostril.

 

As you exhale through your right nostril, think that you are breathing out all your impure hatred energy. Finally, breathe in and out three times through both nostrils to make all the energies clean-clear and equal. As you exhale, think that you are breathing out all your impure ignorance energy. In total this makes nine rounds.

 

Lama Tsongkhapa emphasizes that you should breathe in and out only through your nostrils, not through your mouth. He recommends breathing in first through the right nostril, but because the female principle of mother tantra is normally associated with the left side, you might want to emphasize the auspiciousness of female energy by breathing in first through your left nostril. If you want to emphasize the father tantra approach, breathe in first through your right nostril.

 

Breathe in slowly and gently. While breathing in, you can think you are inhaling pure blissful energy from Tilopa, Naropa, and all the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions. When you exhale, think that all your physical and mental difficulties, the symptoms of your blocked energy, disappear. This is not simply visualization. As soon as you begin to practice nine-round breathing, you will feel some change. When exhaling, first breathe out gently, then strongly, and then gently again.

 

VASE BREATHING

 

Ideally, you should practice vase breathing when your stomach is empty and comfortable; in other words, before eating a meal or after the food has been digested. Posture is also important. Your body should be very straight; vase breathing cannot be effective if your body is bent and squeezed.

 

The vase breathing meditation comprises four steps: inhaling; filling the right and left channels with air; milking the air from the two side channels into the central channel; and exhaling, or “shooting up like an arrow.”

 

Begin the practice by making your hands into vajra fists: place the tip of the thumb at the base of the ring finger and then close the four fingers over the thumb. Place your hands on top of your thighs, with your arms very close to your body and locked straight. Stretch your body upward as much as possible; this enables the airs to flow better. However, you don’t have to sit like this all the time; after a while, you can sit normally.

 

Visualize yourself as the deity and visualize clearly the three main channels and four principal chakras as described earlier. Concentrate on the short a in the navel chakra.

 

The first step is inhaling. Breathe in slowly and gently through both nostrils until your lungs are completely filled, visualizing that the air is filling the two side channels. Remember not to inhale through your mouth and to bring in a complete breath. Although some lamas say to breathe in strongly, Lama Tsongkhapa emphasizes that the inhalation should be very slow and very gentle.

 

In the second step, visualize that the right and left channels are filled with air, like inflated balloons.

 

With the third step, while holding the breath, you swallow a little saliva, tense your diaphragm, and press firmly down. Feel that these downward movements push the inhaled air all the way down the two side channels to the short a at your navel chakra. You might need to exert a little force to hold the air there.

 

Then, still holding your breath and pressing down with the diaphragm, tighten the lower doors by contracting your pelvic muscles. This brings up the lower airs to embrace and unify with the upper airs at the navel chakra. Feel that the short a is magnetizing the air energies, drawing them all into the central channel. Imagine that the upper and lower airs unite precisely at the short a, which is in the central channel in the navel chakra. (The reason this breathing technique is called vase meditation is that the short a is held by the upper and lower airs as if it were in a vase or a teapot.) Hold your breath and tense the upper and lower muscles for as long as you can.

 

Don’t think that the process is complicated or that you will have difficulty doing it. Many things seem to be happening at the same time, but the main steps involve bringing the airs from above and below and unifying them at the navel chakra. Rather than forcing the process, you should feel that the short a automatically draws all the airs into the navel chakra. Good concentration helps all this to happen naturally.

 

Finally, we come to the fourth step. When you can no longer comfortably hold your breath, you should exhale through your nostrils, visualizing that the unified upper and lower airs held at the short a shoot up the central channel like an arrow. They completely absorb inside the central channel, energizing much bliss.

 

You should exhale slowly at first, but toward the end of the expiration breathe the air out forcefully until your lungs feel empty. Although Lama Tsongkhapa’s text does not mention to breathe out strongly (in fact, he advises us to release the breath gently and quietly), I have seen many lamas do it this way.

 

While some lamas say that you should visualize the air leaving the body at the crown, Lama Tsongkhapa says that it should be kept inside the central channel. This is understandable since our main aim is to have all the winds enter, stabilize, and be absorbed there. From the navel chakra the air goes to the heart, throat, and then crown, but it does not exit from the crown chakra.

 

Although we visualize all the air going into the two side channels when we breathe in, our purpose is to fill the central channel, not the side channels. In order to accomplish this, we bring the air down completely and hold it below the navel, where the side channels enter the central channel. When we swallow saliva and then milk the airs from the side channels into the central channel at the navel chakra, the central channel automatically opens, and all the airs from the side channels enter into it.

 

When the side channels are open and functioning, the central channel is closed; and when the central channel is open and functioning, the side channels are closed. Lama Tsongkhapa says that these are the only alternatives.

 

According to Lama Tsongkhapa’s experience, holding the unified upper and lower airs at the navel chakra can be uncomfortable in the beginning, with the abdomen sometimes becoming a little bloated. He explains, however, that with practice the discomfort passes and the abdomen naturally shrinks.

 

Some people might feel that they cannot bring the airs from above and below to unify at the navel chakra; others might feel that their abdomen is too small. The solution is not to force anything. Don’t rush to unify the two airs. Of course, it is a good idea to apply a little force at the beginning, but not so much that you have difficulty or pain. Don’t think that you can only do this practice forcefully. Just try to bring the energy inside in a relaxed fashion.

 

If you don’t like to do the meditation forcefully, imagine that the short a itself magnetically attracts the airs from above and below, drawing them into union at the navel chakra. It is as if the short a sucks the entire energy of your body into the navel chakra. Without any effort, you visualize that the short a forcefully draws the airs from the two side channels, as well as from all the other channels, and from above and below, into one unified absorption. This is an easy way to do vase meditation.

 

If you apply too much force, you may experience wind disorders, known as lung in Tibetan. You could also experience strong heart palpitations, suffer cold sweats, or feel sick. Don’t strain. Just practice in a relaxed and natural way. Perform the technique slowly and gently, and allow the process to develop in accordance with your personal capacity. Everyone’s body is different. Some people have large stomachs, others small; some have large channels, others small. Everyone should breathe according to their individual proportions. In any case, the process is the same.

 

In my opinion, Lama Tsongkhapa is saying that each individual person can judge how much air to bring in and how long to hold it. A lama can instruct you in the techniques, but you should decide from your own experience what works best for you.

 

The more gently you go in the beginning, the more forcefully you will eventually be able to bring all the airs to the navel chakra. Lama Tsongkhapa says, however, that at a certain point vase breathing will come naturally. As your concentration becomes stable, you will find that you can hold the upper and lower winds together effortlessly and naturally. You might be finding the technique difficult, but then suddenly and unexpectedly one day your breathing will become more natural, more subtle, and more easily controlled. You will be able to tell from your own experiences when you have succeeded.

 

You might not be meditating, simply talking or doing some ordinary activity, yet you suddenly notice that you are doing vase breathing. You press down a little, and the energies spontaneously move around inside your body. With regular practice the process becomes very natural, and you will find yourself bringing the airs inside automatically.

 

Of course, if you really do find the technique too complicated, just breathe naturally and develop concentration on the short a. Lama Tsongkhapa’s commentary actually says that vase breathing is not absolutely required for success in the inner fire meditations. You can breathe with small natural breaths, yet deep down you hold the energies.

 

Holding the upper and lower winds together at the navel chakra is the key to success in inner fire meditation. You should practice vase breathing over and over again, until you can do it effortlessly. It is not a difficult technique; in fact, it is unbelievably easy. A sense of bliss arising from the secret chakra will indicate that you are making progress. Even performing the vase meditation without much concentration will induce bliss. You don’t need to be a great meditator. All you have to do is practice, live peacefully, control yourself, relax, and you can experience blissful energy even without good concentration.

 

Vase breathing can also be used as a way to extend your life span. It is said that each of us takes a fixed number of breaths during our life, and if we can learn to control our usual rapid breathing and breathe more slowly, we can prolong our life.

 

Also, I think that slowing the rhythm of our breathing slows down our nervous system, and then our mind automatically slows down as well. In this way our concentration spontaneously becomes much stronger and our mind less distracted.

 

There are various ways to assess your progress in vase breathing. Kagyu practitioners have a method of timing the vase breath in which you touch one knee, then the other, then your forehead, and finally snap your fingers three times. This cycle is counted as one unit of measurement. Being able to do 108 of these while holding a vase breath is considered a sign of great success; seventy-two indicates middling success; and thirty-six, small success. The Kagyu texts explain that this success is only from the point of view of a beginner. For advanced yogis and yoginis, there is no question of counting; they can hold their breath for an extremely long time.

 

Lama Tsongkhapa has a different way of counting. You place your right palm on the left palm and stroke it three times, touch both knees, then snap your fingers six times. The Kagyu method seems simpler to me. Concentrating deeply on inner fire and performing complicated counting at the same time would be difficult. I do not negate Lama Tsongkhapa’s method. I’m sure that someone with indestructible concentration could count in his way; but those who are easily distracted would find it better to count by the other method. There were no watches or clocks in the old days, so time couldn’t be calculated accurately. Anyway, these days we all have watches so we don’t need to count in either Lama Tsongkhapa or Kagyupa style. We can count in twentieth-century style.

 

We should now dedicate the merit. “May the hatred and desire energy from the right and left channels totally absorb into the short a. May all sentient beings experience the wind energies entering into the central channel, becoming stable, and then absorbing there. May they all discover the clear light.”

Courtin, Robina; Yeshe, Lama Thubten; Cameron, Ailsa (2005-06-10). The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (pp. 126-128). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Now lets take a look at Kelsang Gyatso says about the practice of tummo:

 

There are only ten doors through which the winds can enter

the central channel. They are located along the central channel

as follows: (1) the upper tip of the central channel: the

point between the eyebrows; (2) the lower tip: the tip of the

sex organ; (3) the centre of the crown channel wheel: located

in the apex of the cranium; (4) the centre of the throat channel

wheel: located near the back of the throat; (5) the centre

of the heart channel wheel: located between the two breasts;

(6) the centre of the navel channel wheel; (7) the centre of

the secret place channel wheel: four finger-widths below the

navel; (8) the centre of the jewel channel wheel: located in the

centre of the sex organ, near its tip; (9) the wheel of wind: the

centre of the forehead channel wheel; and (10) the wheel of

fire: the centre of the channel wheel located midway between

the throat and the heart channel wheels. Just as we can enter a

house through any of the doors leading in from the outside, so

the winds can enter the central channel through any of these

ten doors.

The central channel is in reality one single channel, but it

is divided into different sections: the central channel of the

crown channel wheel, the central channel of the throat channel

wheel, the central channel of the heart channel wheel, the central

channel of the navel channel wheel, and so forth. Because

there are these different locations, when a practitioner wants

to bring his or her winds into the central channel, he or she

must choose one of these points at which to concentrate.

In Clear Light of Bliss, I explain how to bring the inner winds

into the central channel through the sixth of the ten doors, the

centre of the navel channel wheel. We do this by visualizing

our inner heat, known as tummo, inside our central channel

at the navel in the aspect of a short-ah and meditating on this.

This common practice, known as ‘tummo meditation’, accords

with the tradition of the Six Yogas of Naropa. It was originally

explained in Hevajra Root Tantra by Buddha Vajradhara,

and since then has been used by many practitioners such

as Milarepa and his disciples, and later by practitioners in

modern budhism Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition. However, the instructions of the

Ganden Oral Lineage present an uncommon Mahamudra

Tantra practice. This is a very special practice of Mahamudra

that Je Tsongkhapa received directly from Manjushri, who

had received it directly from Buddha. The lineage of this

instruction, the Ganden Oral Lineage, which is a close lineage,

was then passed to Togden Jampel Gyatso, Baso Chokyi

Gyaltsen, Mahasiddha Dharmavajra, and so on. A full list of

the lineage Gurus of this special instruction is given in Clear

Light of Bliss. These Spiritual Guides are the close lineage

Gurus.

In this Mahamudra Tantra practice, we choose the centre of

the heart channel wheel from among the ten doors to bring the

winds into the central channel. This practice is indicated in the

following verse from the sadhana Offering to the Spiritual Guide,

which is the uncommon preliminary practice of Mahamudra

Tantra according to Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition:

I seek your blessings, O Protector, that you may place

your feet ,On the centre of the eight-petalled lotus at my heart,

So that I may manifest within this life

The paths of illusory body, clear light, and union.

These words actually reveal that penetrating the central channel

of the heart channel wheel, the indestructible drop and

the indestructible wind – the three yogas explained above

– are meditations on isolated body. These lead to the meditations

on isolated speech and isolated mind, which in turn

lead to the meditations on illusory body, meaning clear light

and union.

Because penetrating and concentrating on the indestructible

drop at the heart is a powerful method for attaining the

the completion stage of mahamudra realizations of completion

stage, Buddha Vajradhara praises

this method in Ambhidana Tantra, where he says:

Those who meditate on the drop

That always abides at the heart,

Single-pointedly and without change,

Will definitely attain realizations.

 

Now, I don't have Clear Light of Bliss on Kindle, and I'm not going to type all the instructions, but the instructions are very similar to Lama Yeshe's instructions. They come from Tsongkhapa.

 

Next let us examine "The Six Yogas of Naropa"

 

 

Although glorious Pakmo Drupa thus presents two quite different instructions, the only real difference occurs in one of the four phases. His instructions on drawing in the airs, retaining them and then expelling them are the same in each case. As for the process of "filling," the air that has been inhaled fills the rasana and lalana channels; for the compressing, the air in these two channels is envisioned as flowing into the central channel. The air in the side channels is compressed, forcing it to flow into and fill the central channel.

 

With this meditation on the vase breathing technique at the navel chakra, some teachers state that one should not draw up the airs from below, but should solely press down from above [with the abdomen]. Others say that one first presses down from above for some time, and then afterwards draws up from below three times.

 

These theories fail to appreciate the dynamic involved in vase breathing at the navel chakra. One of the key elements in the meditation is that one wants to redirect the life-sustaining energies flowing above the navel, and also the eliminating energies from below the navel, and blend these two.

 

The Arising of Samvara Tantra explains it as follows,

The energies that course above and below Through the mind are brought to a kiss.

Thus this tantra states that the vital energies from above and below are to be brought together in a kiss through the application. Therefore one should both press down the airs from above and draw them up from below. One should not do so simultaneously, but rather first do the one and then the other. Unless there is a special reason for doing otherwise [such as a health problem], then one first presses down the air from above into the navel chakra, and then draws up the lower airs from below to that same site, thus pressing the two together. One simply does both of these applications one time each; there is no need for doing so three times each [as some recommend].

 

The fourth phase, that of releasing like an arrow, instructs that in releasing the breath one should do so gently and quietly, imagining that it comes up the central channel. However, one does not visualize it as leaving by the crown aperture [as some teachers advise].

 

Thus the airs from above and below are drawn to the navel chakra. At this point, however, it is not appropriate to visualize that the entire body is filled with pure vital energies [as some teachers have suggested], nor that solely the heart and throat chakras of the upper regions are filled [as others have suggested].

 

Instead one concentrates upon the AH-stroke mantric syllable [at the navel chakra], and at that place of meditation brings the upper and lower airs into a kiss. This is a supreme key.

 

In fact we need to possess two keys: that for bringing together the life-sustaining energies, which have been drawn into the central channel, and the eliminating [or, alternatively, the downward-moving] energies, into a kiss at that place [i.e., at the site of the mantric syllable at the center of the central channel, at the location of the navel chakra]; and, secondly, we need the radiant clarity of the appearance of the tiny mantric syllable, as was meditated upon previously.

 

Tsong-Kha-Pa. The Six Yogas Of Naropa: Tsongkhapa's Commentary Entitled A Book Of Three Inspirations: A Treatise On The Stages Of Training In The Profound Path Of Naro's Six Dharmas (Kindle Locations 1845-1865). Kindle Edition.

 

 

I will remind you. This is what you said about tummo:

'alwayson', on 15 Jan 2013 - 14:41, said:

You need transmission for tummo.

 

The "center channel" (dbu ma or avadhuti) is the whole arterial system, or more specifically the aorta. The two "side channels" are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā). A chakra is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves.

 

In the practice of tummo, the visualization of lower ends to the three channels is primarily used to focus body awareness in the subnavel area. Holding the breath, mulabandha and uddiyana bandhas force vāyu and ojas into the arterial system. The heart rate slows and the karmic winds suspend. Ojas has two stores within the body: the heart and brain. Thus there is the visualization of blazing and dripping.

 

and you said:

 

Or you don't understand that kumbhaka is the same as vase breath.

 

If I had to compare vase breathing to a yogic practice, I would say that it is similar to kriya yoga pranayama, or Paramahansa Yogananda's Spinal Breathing (as per Norman Paulsen).

 

And you know, the practice of tummo is very similar to the practices described in "Taoist Yoga" by Charles Luk.

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortality-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673

 

So now I must assume, by judging the fact that you selectively quote bits and pieces from texts to support your radically erroneous statements, that you also do the same with material that nobody else knows about or is willing to take the time to verify. Loss of credibility there.. Big time.

 

 

After a while, you don't even need to do kumbhaka in order to send flames up the spine, or anywhere you'd like. You should have known this if you had been practising tummo.

 

And lastly, you've accused me of not knowing the difference between karmamudra and kagyu. Perhaps you can explain that they are no in way related, that there is no connection in lineage there. On second thought, I don't really care..

 

On another note, with reference to karmamudra, This is what the Dalai Lama said

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Roach

 

" According to the Dalai Lama, "Yogis who have achieved a high level of the path and are fully qualified can engage in sexual activity, and a monastic with this ability can maintain all the precepts...Such a practitioner can make spiritual use not only of delicious meat and drink, but even of human excrement and urine. A yogi’s meditation transforms these into real ambrosia. For people like us, however, this is beyond our reach. As long as you cannot transform piss and shit, these other things should not be done!"

 

So, big time practioner of karmamudra, tell me. What does it taste like?

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Tell you what. Take a deep breath and hold it. Getting hot? Any inner fire?

 

 

Vase breath is not synonymous with tummo, anymore than a clutch is synonymous with a car. There are other Vajrayana techniques that also use vase breath.

[RongzomFan]

And lastly, you've accused me of not knowing the difference between karmamudra and kagyu.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25953-breath-meditation-experience/#entry387911

[Tibetan_Ice]

Namkhai Norbu - "One of the most important means towards this aim is the practice of kumbhaka, a special method of holding the breath"

 

Namkhai Norbu - "The method for mastering kumbhaka.......a cycle of four for the inhalation, six counts for the closed hold and a cycle of four for the exhalation and empty hold. Then the inhalation remains at one cycle while the closed hold increases to two cycles etc. "

 

This is typical Yogic pranayama.

 

Oh, I see.. does Namkhai Norbu call kumbhaka tummo? Are you blaming him for your misunderstanding?

 

Gee, I see in the book that you quoted, from C N Norbu, he has referenced "The Six Yogas of Naropa" for his interpretation of tummo..

 

Perhaps C N Norbu has misquoted Naropa?

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=I0OFnChLoZUC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=while+the+closed+hold+increases+to+two+cycles&source=bl&ots=olDtVj4CAj&sig=pIvy5DS5wwfre0ikbiAtTtWV_sU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R1YhUYmiIsH9igK1nYBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=kumbhaka%20&f=false

 

Nope. Did C N Norbu make some booboos there?

 

He says:

The main method to do this is called "capturing the karmic prana in the central channel" through the practice of kumbhaka, which consists of inhaling air through the two channels and forcing prana energy through the central channel.

 

But again, kumbhaka is holding your breath, not collapsing ida and pingala into the central channel..

 

 

Let's see what I can find:

 

Oh, here, this is interesting.. This is C N Norbu's quote from that book:

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=11272

 

Gee Alwaysoff, your first quote doesn't even mention tummo. Here is the full paragraph:

Basically, all of these practices serve to coordinate our breathing in everyday life. We all know how to breathe in and out, but usually we don't do it in the right way because breathing is tied to the mind, which is often disordered and confused. We can see this very clearly if we observe the way someone who is very agitated breathes compared to somebody who is very calm and serene. That is why it is necessary to coordinate our breathing. In yoga it is said that life is breath, because when we start to live we start to breathe. When our breathing ceases, our life ends. Yoga practitioners are said to live a long life because they have coordinated their breath. One of the most important means towards this aim is the practice of kumbhaka, a special method of holding the breath.

 

When practiced frequently and correctly, kunibhaka helps to coordinate breathing in our daily life so that we are no longer dominated by thoughts and emotions.

 

Yet, you used this to support the idea that C N Norbu calls kumbhaka tummo. ?

 

Here is more from that same book you quoted from:

 

Channels and cakras represent the inner structure of the human body, referred to in the tantric teachings as the 'vajra body'. 'Vajra' means 'indestructible', and 'vajra body' refers to the dimension of the three fundamental components: the channels and cakras, the prana that flows through them, and the bindu or thigle, the white and red seed-essences of the physical body that form the basis for practices such as the Tummo.

 

In the tantras of the Upadesa section of Dzogchen, it is explained that after the conception of a human being the first thing to develop is the navel cakra. Then from this, through a channel the head cakra develops followed by the other main cakras of the throat and the heart. This channel or meridian, known as the life-channel, develops into the spinal cord and spine. At the same time it remains as the fundamental energy of the central channel.

 

The central channel, known as Uma in Tibetan, is connected with the two lateral channels called Roma and Kyangma. The Roma channel, which is white and corresponds to lunar energy, is on the right side in men and on the left in women. Re means 'taste', and the main function of this channel is to give the sensation of pleasure. The Kyangma channel, red and corresponding to solar energy, is on the left side in men and on the right in women. Kyang means 'sole', and unlike the Roma, this channel is not connected with niany secondary channels. Control of this channel is fundamental in order to cultivate the experience of emptiness. These are the characteristic features of the two channels, which are related to the two principles of upaya or method, and of prajna or energy. Method denotes everything pertaining to the visible or material dimension; while prajna, which generally means discriminating wisdom, in this context denotes the energy of emptiness that is the base of any manifestation.

 

For example, if we talk of transformation as the fundamental principle of the practice of Tantra, we do not mean only the transformation of energy. 'We are used to concrete, material vision, and consequently we need as our means of transformation the visible figure of a deity or mandala with specific color and shape. All of these elements, which serve to give an idea of the transformation, are called 'method'. Prana, on the other hand, has no form but must be understood through method. In the depiction of a deity in union or yab-yum the male figure representing method is stable, while the female, who represents energy, is embracing him in dynamic movement. This symbolizes our nature: method is stable and visible, while energy is not. What is presented must be visible, and its representation must enable one to understand that its true essence is energy. This principle also underlies the classification of the modern tantras. Those that use the aspect of method more are called 'father' tantras, while those that use the aspect of prana or energy more are called 'mother' tantras. In any case, the channels are not material but instead represent the movement of energy, and energy can circulate in different ways according to how the channels are visualized. In general the channels are visualized entwined at the level of each cakra arid joined with the central channel four fingers below the navel. This visualization is applied particularly in practices aimed at developing the sensation of pleasure. On the other hand, in some cases the channels are visualized as vertically parallel. Furthermore, sometimes the central channel ends four fingers below the navel where it joins with the two side channels, while at other times it ends at the bottom of the trunk.

 

The cakras are discs along the central channel where the energy concentrates. Four, five or six cakras are visualized, according to the method that is being used. When we visualize four cakras, they are at the head, throat, heart and navel. When we visualize six cakras, such as when we are working with the sensation of pleasure, we add the cakra found four fingers below the navel and the cakra at the base of the trunk. In Tantric transformation practices it is necessary also to visualize the specific petals or branches of each cakra, usually numbering eight at the heart, sixteen at the throat, thirty-two at the head and sixty-four at the navel. However, there are also other points of view in this regard. The cakras are not something imaginary, but are instead points where energy arises and is concentrated. Thus, even though the channels and cakras cannot be said to exist on a physical level they do have their own reality, otherwise there would be no explanation of the efficacy of medical therapies such as acupuncture and moxibustion. The point is that they do not have a rigid material structure. Sometimes texts say that the central channel should be visualized one inch thick, sometimes as thick as an arrow, and at other times, much more slender. If it had a definitive size, it would always be visualized in the same way. Similarly, the cakras are visualized according to specific instructions, and not on the basis of their actual number.

 

The visualizations are always done in specific points because the prana or vital energy concentrates where we concentrate our mind. In the diverse cakras we concentrate on colored spheres that represent the energy of the five elements. At times the shapes and colors are visualized in different cakras, at other times only in the main cakra of the navel.

 

Meditation or contemplation means knowledge of the nature of the mind beyond dualism. This condition is symbolized by the central channel, while the right and left channels represent dualism and karmic breathing. We always live in time conditioned by dualistic vision, judgments, thoughts and concepts. As the central channel symbolizes the nature of mind, the definitive aim of Yantra Yoga is to capture the karmic prana within the central channel. What does this mean? Breathing in a distracted manner through the solar and lunar channels is the way we transmigrate. Through distraction all actions arise and karma is produced. That is why normal breathing is called karmic. When a living being is born, it already has its own character produced by a specific karma tied to the prana and the breath. If we want to become masters of ourselves and our minds without further distraction, first of all we should be able to control the karmic breath. The main method to do this is called "capturing the karmic prana in the central channel" through the practice of kumbhaka, which consists of inhaling the air through the two channels and forcing the prana energy into the central channel. In this way the air flowing in the two karmic channels is exhausted and integrated within the central channel.

 

 

There. Now we have it in context.. from the same book you quoted. Kumbhaka is not tummo. C N Norbu didn't write that. You misunderstood. It is very clear.

 

I will dispense with the insults. No more fun..

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Vase breath is not synonymous with tummo, anymore than a clutch is synonymous with a car. There are other Vajrayana techniques that also use vase breath.

 

bump

[RongzomFan]

You totally neglected the aspects of focusing the mind below the navel...

 

 

I've described tummo previously. This is the 3rd time I will say the same thing:

 

Vase breath is not synonymous with tummo, anymore than a clutch is synonymous with a car. There are other Vajrayana techniques that also use vase breath.

[Maddie]

Mindfulness is only one part of the Buddhist meditation formula. The other part is shamatha, concentrative or calm-abiding meditation. It is key to practice one with the other. A good shamatha practice will allow one to create the space in which challenging thoughts and feelings may arise.

 

The easiest and simplest way to build this practice is simply concentrating on the breath. Another good way is to sit zazen. A strong shamatha practice will not only help during meditation, but in all of life.

 

At some point, it is also a good idea to think about having a teacher.

Thats basically what I've been doing

[Spotless]

Something else more specific I've noticed lately is that after meditation it tend to feel more anxious/emotional, and sexual. I'm not sure why this is. As to some questions about the specifics of my practice. I was going for 40 min at a time, usually twice a day. After getting feed back from this post I've reduced it to 30 min at a time. I'm not sure why my thoughts and feelings become so sexual after meditation, but it can last a good while after wards.

 

I am sorry if I did not clarifiy my information before.

 

When I stated that men hit a wall at about 40 minutes - I meant that this is the wall you want to break through. Personally I consider a 1 hr meditation about a 20 minute meditation because it takes about 40 minutes to get to the place where real meditation starts.

Most men go unconsious at 40 minutes and end their meditation. They get allot out of a 40 minute meditation - but generally your head leaves somewhat fuzzy by comparison to a meditation of an hour or more.

 

Many women end their meditation at 20 minutes - and breaking past the wall is harder on some levels. But - if they go for an hour many of them will really settle in after about 30 minutes.

 

 

I think - instead of lowering the meditation to 30 minutes - try 60 minutes or 90 minutes.

Get a taste of moving past the wall.

 

We do not know what meditation style you do - or much of anything - the more you tell us the more we do not have to stab in the dark.

 

A person can say over and over that they really are having a hard time getting out of the house.

All kinds of ideas come to mind about how to help them.

When that person finally says they have no arms and no legs and no one to help them - well - it is a very different and specific story.

 

You have mentioned the sexual thing several times - how old are you - do you have a girlfiend/boyfriend or are you abstaining or? (a little help)

 

More than anything - a 1 hr meditation is worth far more than two 40 minute sessions - particularly in the beginning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JustBHappy]

I completely agree with what "Tao Master" has said, these are all true and important points. In my experience the real magic starts happening once I've broken through resistance, but I also feel this is often better done in solitary or silent retreat.

 

I believe it's also important to see the other side of the coin. I've seen too many people start on a path of cultivation with this 'more is better' attitude all gung ho and ready to be Milarepa or Da Mo and end up quitting within the year. What is most important in my opinion is daily practice (even a short one) and as many retreats as one can work into their life.

 

Even a simple 10 minute meditation done everyday is a beautiful thing. It's much better to quit the meditation on a high note and keep your sessions short and sweet than it is to push too hard and burn out. The path of patience and balance is the right path in my opinion. You will look forward to your 10 minutes and truly enjoy it instead of making it into a chore or a battle to be fought.

 

The 10 minutes will grow into 20 minutes, then 30..... Celebrate and be thankful for any practice that you do. Each day is like putting a piece of rice paper on your desk. One sheet is nothing, even 100 sheets appears insubstantial, but one day you look up and have a huge stack of rice paper.

 

I will never forget the first time I broke the 2 hour barrier. There are some real advantages to longer sits depending on what type of meditation you are doing, but keep in mind the potential for making your daily sit into a chore and possibly burning out.

[Maddie]

I am sorry if I did not clarifiy my information before.

 

When I stated that men hit a wall at about 40 minutes - I meant that this is the wall you want to break through. Personally I consider a 1 hr meditation about a 20 minute meditation because it takes about 40 minutes to get to the place where real meditation starts.

Most men go unconsious at 40 minutes and end their meditation. They get allot out of a 40 minute meditation - but generally your head leaves somewhat fuzzy by comparison to a meditation of an hour or more.

 

Many women end their meditation at 20 minutes - and breaking past the wall is harder on some levels. But - if they go for an hour many of them will really settle in after about 30 minutes.

 

 

I think - instead of lowering the meditation to 30 minutes - try 60 minutes or 90 minutes.

Get a taste of moving past the wall.

 

We do not know what meditation style you do - or much of anything - the more you tell us the more we do not have to stab in the dark.

 

A person can say over and over that they really are having a hard time getting out of the house.

All kinds of ideas come to mind about how to help them.

When that person finally says they have no arms and no legs and no one to help them - well - it is a very different and specific story.

 

You have mentioned the sexual thing several times - how old are you - do you have a girlfiend/boyfriend or are you abstaining or? (a little help)

 

More than anything - a 1 hr meditation is worth far more than two 40 minute sessions - particularly in the beginning.

I do mindfulness meditation. Basically I just sit, and observe my breath. I did try going for an hour and I do think there is something to it like you said. I broke up last summer with my gf, and since that time I have abstained.

[Spotless]

I completely agree with what "Tao Master" has said, these are all true and important points. In my experience the real magic starts happening once I've broken through resistance, but I also feel this is often better done in solitary or silent retreat.

 

I believe it's also important to see the other side of the coin. I've seen too many people start on a path of cultivation with this 'more is better' attitude all gung ho and ready to be Milarepa or Da Mo and end up quitting within the year. What is most important in my opinion is daily practice (even a short one) and as many retreats as one can work into their life.

 

Even a simple 10 minute meditation done everyday is a beautiful thing. It's much better to quit the meditation on a high note and keep your sessions short and sweet than it is to push too hard and burn out. The path of patience and balance is the right path in my opinion. You will look forward to your 10 minutes and truly enjoy it instead of making it into a chore or a battle to be fought.

 

The 10 minutes will grow into 20 minutes, then 30..... Celebrate and be thankful for any practice that you do. Each day is like putting a piece of rice paper on your desk. One sheet is nothing, even 100 sheets appears insubstantial, but one day you look up and have a huge stack of rice paper.

 

I will never forget the first time I broke the 2 hour barrier. There are some real advantages to longer sits depending on what type of meditation you are doing, but keep in mind the potential for making your daily sit into a chore and possibly burning out.

 

I agree with all of this.

 

I had deleted some regard for a short but quality meditation and I think everything said here is very true.

 

The advantage to "burning out" is that you may be driven to that and not be able to contain yourself - particularly true with men. So - if you are driven enough to do major two-a-days then better yet go for a longer single sitting.

 

This will also be helpful regarding your sexual energy.

 

What is happening is that at about 40 minutes, energy that is stuck in your space begins to vibrate up to a point that it is about to really dissipate - areas where your life force is knotted up - as this starts to release you will go unconscious and at least parts of you will want to quit - the very parts of you that are the most unreal and not wanting to give up these strongholds of stuck energy (often stuck energy that is very well set and that you are habituated to - it is not just "rust in the pipes").

 

Breaking past these barriers will clean out stuck "past time" energy and really get back to fresh clean circuitry in those areas.

It will be a very long time that you will accomplish this with 10 minute sessions. Yet I cannot argue with 10 minute sessions or even 5 minute sessions - I can argue on their behalf with just as much vigor.

 

You will find that women will often be very happy to hear that 10 minute sessions are good and that constant practice is the more important behavior set and it is a good arguement.

 

Let us look at why this might also be the case: women hit "pain" pictures - stuck pain energy in 15 or 20 minutes. They are also way more patient than men. They may also experience pictures that they see only in their dreams during menstral periods. The resistance to the pain pictures and longer meditation times is likely why we see 8 to 1 women to men in most of these classes but 90% of the high teachers are men.

 

Men on the other hand have this sexual Beast energy - it is like a cross between a monkey and a dog - it wreaks havoc on us and longer meditation times are the most relief we have had from the beast in our entire lives. We do not generally hit a pile of pain pictures when we meditate - we feel more and more impowered because of the way we hold our stuck energy and the way in which it is released. We also experience freedom from the monkey/dog and become calmer. Half of us are normally like a capped volcano with nothing but politically incorrect inclinations eminating from every pore - and doing our best to contain our composure.

 

Again - all of this said - short or long meditations are both very valuable.

 

Regarding burn-out - it happens all the time - but I am not sure many small meditations would not become an annoyance possibly because they do not appear to be "really doing much" when fewer long meditations can gain some of those "wow - that was incredible" moments that keep you coming back - even if you leave for awhile.

 

Sometimes burn-out will lead you to a group - and group work is extraordinarily benificial. Work within a group is far greater than most work that is not while associated with a group - (not always - but give me a little wiggle room here). This is particularly true during the first 5 years.

[Maddie]

I've been doing hour long meditations for a few days now, and so far the best way I can describe it is that two contradictory events are happening at the same time. This morning while sitting and breathing very strong erotic thoughts and feelings just bubbled up of their own accord. I did not try to make this happen, though I did not try to stop it either. I simply observed it the best I could. The other side of the coin (thus the contraditcion) was that while all of this was bubbleing up, I felt a certain detachment or state of observation also. In the past I had rather negative and judgemental attitudes towards many aspects of sexuality. Now that I've been doing mindfullness (simply observing without judgement) it seems/feels that I have made space for these formerly repressed/stuck thoughts/energies to come up to the surface and do what they need to do. Thus I feel it more, but at the same time feel more detached from it. Hope that makes some sense.

[Spotless]

DMattwads said:

"Thus I feel it more, but at the same time feel more detached from it. Hope that makes some sense."

 

Congratulations!

 

At some point you can direct the sexual energy. See your teacher for some instruction or ask it here - it has probably been discussed at length. I have noticed this recently in myself at times and simply flip the switch and redirect it.

[Spotless]

Breathing can help to make it past a wall - sometimes relatively intense breathing.

 

If you do Qi Gong - Qi Gong breathing during meditation can help - I also do "holotropic" breathing sometimes.

 

If I lose my awareness - I have hit a "picture" - my vibration and the energies of the meditation are at a clearing point - a break point - a popping point (and you may experience many popping sounds from the back of the neck area where it attaches to the head) A knot of life force is wrapped up and is about to be released.

 

Some portion of it will be released even if you pull out and stop your meditation - but if you make it past this - you will clear it and regain the energy at the same time. Its like clearing out a pile of dirty dishes - suddenly you get your sink back, the faucet back and the drain back - its all flowing again in that area.

[Maddie]

Latest update. For the past couple days I've felt rather unusual and I can think of only two things that I've done differently.

 

The first is a few days ago I did probably about an hours worth of the Zhunti Mantra.

 

The second is that around the same time (later that day) I meditated with red gemstones and visualized myself and the entire room I was in as being bright red. My reason for doing so was to work on my root chakra, which is one chakra I had not paid all that much attention to in the past compared to the other ones.

 

Since then for the past couple of nights I've had insomnia which is rather unusual for me. Also I've felt very "unsual". I don't really know how else to explain it yet, I just feel weird. Kind of tired, and lethargic, and spacey.

 

Is this a result of the Zhunti Mantra and/or working with my root chakra using all that red? Or something else entirely?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Latest update. For the past couple days I've felt rather unusual and I can think of only two things that I've done differently.

 

The first is a few days ago I did probably about an hours worth of the Zhunti Mantra.

 

The second is that around the same time (later that day) I meditated with red gemstones and visualized myself and the entire room I was in as being bright red. My reason for doing so was to work on my root chakra, which is one chakra I had not paid all that much attention to in the past compared to the other ones.

 

Since then for the past couple of nights I've had insomnia which is rather unusual for me. Also I've felt very "unsual". I don't really know how else to explain it yet, I just feel weird. Kind of tired, and lethargic, and spacey.

 

Is this a result of the Zhunti Mantra and/or working with my root chakra using all that red? Or something else entirely?

 

Hi DMatWads

If you are going to play with crystals, better learn more about them before you do.

 

For one, if you do any crystal work, always put a black stone (obsidian, black tourmaline, jet etc) at your feet or below your body to ground the energy. Learn as much as you can about crystals before using them. Learn how to care for them, clear them, charge them, which ones to put in the sun, and which ones not to. Hint: you can use salt to clear crystals, or running water, or sunshine, or, if you are an adept, you can even give them a blast yourself..

 

I'm not trying to scare you or anything, but, did you clear and charge the "red rock" before you used it?

 

What if it had an entity attached from the previous owner?

 

The symptoms you describe are the result of using crystals improperly, in my opinion. The red would have opened your root chakra, but what did you do with that? Did you close it after? Did you ground it?

 

Case in point: One time, as an experiment, I did a full-body layout using only emeralds.. I put an emerald at the feet, at the crown, on each chakra and one in each hand. The session felt like I was encased in a space of green heart love, very protective, exactly like a cocoon. It also felt very heady and spacey, like I was completely detached from the body, like I had become the space inside the cocoon.

 

But, after the session, it was very disorienting. I felt like I was walking above the ground and it took a whole day/night to get back to normal.

 

Crystals are very powerful and you have to show them some respect by learning about them, reading about them and even knowing how to pick them before you use them. For one, learn their names and their properties. A red rock could be jasper, ruby, or garnet. Each crystal has it's own hardness and signature vibration. Each crystal has properties that will either filter, amplify or subdue certain types of vibrations.. Some crystals, like amethyst, are very powerful for opening the third eye. White quartz is an all-round utility knife. It can cut like a laser, project like a laser and retain it's vibrations a very long time.

 

My purpose here is not to become your instuctor, I'm just saying...

 

I have several good books on crystals and some bad ones as well.. What I do is compare what each book says about the particular crystal and find the common ground, because, quite frankly, many of the books out there seem to just be making it all up. You have to check out the crystal yourself. First step, put it in your left palm and sense it's energies. See how it affects you. Do you like it? Does it make something vibrate? Does it make you feel comfortable? Is it friendly or malicious? Does it make your palm go numb? Get the idea?

 

Good luck.

 

TI

Edited March 23, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Maddie]

Thanks for the feed back, I actually have used crystals for a while. The reds were Jasper, Ruby, Goldstone, and Garnet. I've had them for a while and have salted and cleared them many times. I believe the difference was not in the fact that I used crystals, but that I used Red ones. I have worked on all the chakras with crystals but in the past I predominately used black stones for the root chakra, as you mentioned. This was the first time I used just red and nothing else.

 

The reason I dedided to use red as opposed to the black that I usually use for the root chakra is mainly a desire to increase my energy level, as I had been feeling unmotivated and lethargic lately. So I guess my question is more about the root chakra itself as opposed to the method of working on it.

[Birch]

I'm not sure if this is helpful but it is timely since I picked up a book about the 'Hidden Dangers of Meditation' (bit of an alarmist title) other day and have been reading with interest.

 

Anyway, to cut to it, raising kundalini with lots of 'red' energy can (according to what I'm reading here) have side effects that aren't great for the practitioner. Same goes for the dark greens (???) In addition, the effects aren't immediate but happen over time.

 

Powering up the k from the lower centres exclusively feeds the upper centres 'dirtier' energy (although I don't understand what that meant) and can also power up both 'positive' and 'negative' chakra traits and effects in similar measure.

 

I DO understand what the last part meant.

 

Hum.