Bumps on the Cultivation Path

[Maddie]

I may not have a correct understanding of this, BUT this is what I've seemed to notice about meditation lately. With Samatha first of all its very hard to do. It seems like just about every second I have to bring my focus back to the present. Yet even if I do a relatively short amount of Samatha it seems like after that all sorts of stuff bubbles up from the depths and then I have to do quite a bit of Vipassana to deal with it.

 

So today for example. I did 40 min of Zhunti mantra followed by 20 min of Samatha to make a nice even hour. After that I start feeling "fidgety" so a little later I go and do Vipassana. Well it was like my mind felt like this wild caged beast as I first sat to do Vipassana. When I closed my eyes I almost literally visualized this angry ape in a cage thrashing about wanting to be anywhere and doing anything other than sitting in meditation. It was very intense. It took a good 1 hour and 20 min for things to settle down.

 

Is this a standard pattern?

[Simple_Jack]

Something I've really been confused about lately. Is it possible to reach enlightenment as a lay Buddhist? I mean if your not celibate at least. If the notion of reaching enlightenment is to be free of desire, then how can you desire a spouse and still attain enlightenment?

 

This is a page with scriptural support from the Pali canon on lay followers of the Buddha who achieved varying levels. Goes to show that even in Buddha's time there were lay followers who reaped the fruits of the practice. Even if this is supposedly the "Dharma-ending Age", I think that it is still possible for lay people to reap the fruits of the path.

 

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Lay_arahant:

 

One of the misconceptions about Buddhism, especially early Buddhism / Theravada is that only monks and nuns can become Arahants, fully enlightened.

 

Contents

[hide]

 

1 Lay Dhamma teachers

2 Sotapanna Lay followers

3 Sakadagami Lay followers

4 Anagami Lay followers

5 Arahant Lay followers

6 Likelihood of enlightenment for lay people

7 References

 

Lay Dhamma teachers

 

In the Anguttara Nikaya, Book of Tens, Anathapindika and Vajjiyamahita, both lay followers teach the Dhamma by refuting the wrong views of a group of wanderers. At the end of the discourse, the Buddha praises Anathapindika for defending the teaching against misrepresentation. (AN 10.93)

 

The householder Citta attained to the high spiritual level of anagami (non returner) and taught Dhamma even to monks. (SN 4.282)

 

Sotapanna Lay followers

 

In the Pali Canon, thousands of lay followers are mentioned as having reached the status of Sotapanna (stream entrant), guaranteed no more than 7 future lives before attaining full enlightenment. The Digha Nikaya, parinibbanana sutta mentions "over 500" lay followers who attained stream entry. The Digha Nikaya, chapter 18 mentions "over 2,400 Magadha followers" who attained stream entry.

 

Sakadagami Lay followers

 

In the Pali Canon, at least 90 lay followers are mentioned as reaching the status of Sakadagami (once returner), guaranteed to attain enlightenment in the next life as a human or deva. (DN 16)

 

Anagami Lay followers

 

Over 50 lay people are mentioned as reaching Anagami (non returner), guaranteed full enlightenment in the next existence in the Pure Abodes deva realm. (DN 16)

 

Majjhima Nikaya 73 mentions over 500 lay followers who have attained Anagami:

 

Other than bhikkhus, and bhikkhunis. Is there a single lay disciple of Gotama, who wearing white clothes had led the holy life, has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously, not to proceed?'

 

`Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and born spontaneously would not proceed,'

 

`Good, Gotama, wait! Other thanbhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single a lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher.

 

Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leadingthe holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more'

 

Arahant Lay followers

 

The Commentaries mention some lay followers who attained full enlightenment, such as Uggasena who was a lay man with the householder responsibilities with family and work as an acrobat in side shows.

 

The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:

 

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"

 

Milindapanha III.19

 

"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."

 

"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."

 

Milindapanha III.62

 

The Milindapanha, which is almost as old as the [rest of (Burmese ed.)] Pali Canon above implies that lay people do/did attain enlightenment. It is just that they all ordained or died within 7 days or less.

 

Many of the arahants mentioned in the Pali Canon who attained enlightenment were either monks or nuns or ascetics from other traditions, so technically, perhaps the ascetics were not lay followers.

 

But there is a list of 21 lay followers in AN 6.131 - 151 / 3:450 f; PTS ed AN 6.119-120 who attained full enlightenment. One is listed as a doctor, others as householders, so it does not appear they were all ascetics.

 

Likelihood of enlightenment for lay people

 

Although there are about 3,000 lay sotapannas mentioned in the Pali Canon, at least 90 sakadagamis, at least 500 anagamis, and about 21 lay arahants mentioned in the Pali Canon, there are far more monastic monks and nuns mentioned as reaching full enlightenment. This appears to be due to the fact of the life of renunciation of monastics, which is more conducive to the highest noble states.

 

"There are not only one hundred . . . or five hundred, but far more bhikkhunis, my disciples, who by realizing for themselves with direct knowledge here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom . . ." (repeated for bhikkhus too, in MN 73)

 

Although it is unlikely, it is still possible and the distinction between monastic and lay is not quite as sharp as some have believed in the past. Piya Tan's essay, Lamen Saints (see references) goes into greater detail on this subject.

 

In the previous few centuries the thinking and practice has been that there is a sharp distinction between lay and monastic, with lay people basically serving monastics for their requisites and just hoping for a better rebirth, while the monastics work on their salvation. But Piya Tan and other scholars are now showing that it is more of a blur and that in the time of the Buddha, as evidenced by the Pali Canon, the divide was not that sharp.

 

References

 

Milindapanha, an Abridgment edited by Bhikkhu Pesala

Laymen Saints

Uggasena

[Maddie]

Interesting. You know as I was reading that it made me wonder something. If someone became a stream-enterer in their past life or a couple lives ago, how would they know it this time around? I also recon that the more monk-ish you live the further you'll go?

 

Also if you meditate a lot and you feel it do something, is it common to feel very tired the next day?

Edited May 21, 2013 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

Has anyone ever felt "weirded out" by success in meditation? I mean I've been meditating so much lately to change habitual patterns in my mind, and to try and work out karma, and it just dawned on me that its working and I felt so lost haha.

 

I guess we can just get so used to our patterns going round and round and round for so very very long that we just think "that's how life just is", and then you finally do something to change it like study the dharma and meditate and then one day it hits you that your in a totally new place in your life and in your mind and its very disorienting.

 

Has anyone else faced this?

[Mandrake]

Has anyone ever felt "weirded out" by success in meditation? I mean I've been meditating so much lately to change habitual patterns in my mind, and to try and work out karma, and it just dawned on me that its working and I felt so lost haha.

 

I guess we can just get so used to our patterns going round and round and round for so very very long that we just think "that's how life just is", and then you finally do something to change it like study the dharma and meditate and then one day it hits you that your in a totally new place in your life and in your mind and its very disorienting.

 

Has anyone else faced this?

 

It's quite intriguing, isn't it?

Simultaneously, I'm more and more surprised that people are so fixed in their identity, and cling rock-hard to even the most trivial things as being "who they are"; they refuse to budge, and are averse to change.

The discovery of "I don't need to be like this" is refreshing!

 

 

Mandrake

[C T]

Has anyone ever felt "weirded out" by success in meditation? I mean I've been meditating so much lately to change habitual patterns in my mind, and to try and work out karma, and it just dawned on me that its working and I felt so lost haha.

 

I guess we can just get so used to our patterns going round and round and round for so very very long that we just think "that's how life just is", and then you finally do something to change it like study the dharma and meditate and then one day it hits you that your in a totally new place in your life and in your mind and its very disorienting.

 

Has anyone else faced this?

I think this is a phase that many practitioners will have to go thru at some point on their way to clearer seeing.

 

Being non-judgmental helps quite a bit when things become weird. Observe the arising and passing of events, thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions... as if like snowflake falling on water, is a favored metaphor nonchalantly used by masters frequently when describing the processes of change and such.

 

I am reminded of a poem by Ted Kooser, and have the pleasure to share it with you:

 

Above us, stars. Beneath us, constellations.

Five billion miles away, a galaxy dies

like a snowflake falling on water. Below us,

some farmer, feeling the chill of that distant death,

snaps on his yard light, drawing his sheds and barn

back into the little system of his care.

All night, the cities, like shimmering novas,

tug with bright streets at lonely lights like his.

 

He goes on to say that "if we pay attention to the ordinary world, there are all sorts of wonderful things in it.... But most of us go thru the day without noticing." I guess this is where mindfulness meditation come in, to bring one back to this passing moment -- each precious, each wonderful, yet ever so fleeting....

[Maddie]

I think this is a phase that many practitioners will have to go thru at some point on their way to clearer seeing.

 

Being non-judgmental helps quite a bit when things become weird. Observe the arising and passing of events, thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions... as if like snowflake falling on water, is a favored metaphor nonchalantly used by masters frequently when describing the processes of change and such.

 

I am reminded of a poem by Ted Kooser, and have the pleasure to share it with you:

 

Above us, stars. Beneath us, constellations.

Five billion miles away, a galaxy dies

like a snowflake falling on water. Below us,

some farmer, feeling the chill of that distant death,

snaps on his yard light, drawing his sheds and barn

back into the little system of his care.

All night, the cities, like shimmering novas,

tug with bright streets at lonely lights like his.

 

He goes on to say that "if we pay attention to the ordinary world, there are all sorts of wonderful things in it.... But most of us go thru the day without noticing." I guess this is where mindfulness meditation come in, to bring one back to this passing moment -- each precious, each wonderful, yet ever so fleeting....

 

Haha that's great and appropriate. So I just woke up this morning and was looking around my room, and was thinking to myself "oh I like my room, its nice, why haven't I paid more attention to it before" lol.

 

I agree being non-judgmental is the key. Actually I think that being non-judgmental both helped get me to this point, (welcoming what ever arises during meditation) and is helping me get through the disorientation now (just because I don't have it all figured out, its still ok).

[Maddie]

Has anyone run into this? For the past couple months I've been meditating a lot and now it seems harder to meditate, as in I don't have the patience like I did and I'm not sure why?

[XieJia]

Has anyone run into this? For the past couple months I've been meditating a lot and now it seems harder to meditate, as in I don't have the patience like I did and I'm not sure why?

 

There must be an event where you saw what you are suppose to see.

The mind takes time to recollect itself and getting used to the current state.

It will be ups and downs like this until the end of your path.

 

May fruitfulness and happiness be always on your way.

Edited June 5, 2013 by XieJia

[Jeff]

Has anyone run into this? For the past couple months I've been meditating a lot and now it seems harder to meditate, as in I don't have the patience like I did and I'm not sure why?

 

I have found that to happen periodically. Meditation sort of digs into (or exposes) things in the subconscious mind. As one starts to get close to a major fear/issue the mind can become agitated. Almost like the energy flows are "bumping up" against the issue. Do you currently feel energy flows in the body?

 

Best, Jeff

[Maddie]

I have found that to happen periodically. Meditation sort of digs into (or exposes) things in the subconscious mind. As one starts to get close to a major fear/issue the mind can become agitated. Almost like the energy flows are "bumping up" against the issue. Do you currently feel energy flows in the body?

 

Best, Jeff

Yea but I always do lol.

[Jeff]

Yea but I always do lol.

 

Then see if you can feel any spot in the body where the flow is obstructed. That spot will probably be associated with the issue/fear causing the meditation agitation. In later stages, it is often found in the heart area.

[Maddie]

Then see if you can feel any spot in the body where the flow is obstructed. That spot will probably be associated with the issue/fear causing the meditation agitation. In later stages, it is often found in the heart area.

I had a LOT of heart stuff a few weeks ago. I'll try to pay more attention and see if I can localize this feeling as so far its felt very non-localized.

[RongzomFan]

You should get transmission for jñ̄ānamudra, which is tantric masturbation.