Difference between being in 'Pure Land' and 'Clear Light'

[idiot_stimpy]

I am very interested to hear about your thoughts, on the difference between the Pure Land and Clear Light?

 

How do they differ from each other.

 

Thank you

 

Kind Regards

[RongzomFan]

Pure Land is a bardo experience, where one's own wisdom seemingly manifests as Buddhas, realms etc. Can be experienced while alive or dead.

 

Clear light is when the winds (vayus) are slowed down to a significant extent. Winds and mind are the same thing, so if the winds move subtlety that is considered "subtle mind".

[林愛偉]

Pure Land practice is nit Bardo at all.

[RongzomFan]

Pure Land practice is nit Bardo at all.

 

 

Maybe not the practice, but the result is a bardo experience of a Pure Land.

[林愛偉]

Maybe not the practice, but the result is a bardo experience of a Pure Land.

 

not at all. The inevitable end result in Pure Land Practice is Buddha-hood. States of mind will arise in any practice. Throughout Pure Land Practice, the main goal isn't rebirth in the pure land, it is simply to end false thinking. "Thus, when the mind is pure the land is pure. " 6th Patriarch Hui Neng of the Chan School.

 

This means that everything in between from the beginning of PL practice till one's Buddha hood is about purifying the mind by ending false thinking. The PL of Amitabha Buddha, specifically, is a realm that hosts none of the laws of relativity we have, nor is it a realm where one undergoes any type of rebirth.

 

When the mind is pure, meaning no more reliance on false thoughts, there are no more states reliant on influences such as cultivating methods. Thus, what is said to "be" is just that.

 

Amitabha's PL is a place, and yet it isn't. Why is it also not a place? because those who are not ready for it, wont be there. All manners within that sutra are speaking of the true mind. It is a sutra of utmost expedients,

[idiot_stimpy]

I am having trouble understanding what the experience of Pure Land is like?

 

Do you start seeing things, you wouldn't normally see and have energy beings teach you?

 

Or is it a very simple experience?

[RongzomFan]

I am having trouble understanding what the experience of Pure Land is like?

 

It would be a lucid dream.

[idiot_stimpy]

If Clear light is when the winds (vayus) are slowed down to a significant extent, and if being in the Pure Land means an end to false thinking, can Clear Light lead to being in the Pure Land?

[林愛偉]

I am having trouble understanding what the experience of Pure Land is like?

 

Do you start seeing things, you wouldn't normally see and have energy beings teach you?

 

Or is it a very simple experience?

 

You may begin to "see" things without the old views you once held. Think of it more as a change of life and mind, instead of having beings come to teach you.

 

Quite frankly, the simple, the better, and "faster" to get you where you want to go. To truly understand and experience what Pure Land Dharma door is all about, practice it, and apply all it is required to truly go further: Faith Vows and Practice.

 

Faith in the Dharma, and in yourself in applying yourself, in trusting yourself that you will indeed succeed. Vows for without them, our mind will go all over and not be restrained from false thinking. Practice, actually practice what the method entails.

 

For one thing, it isn't an intermediate state when modern day people are reciting the Buddha's Name and ending their cycle of birth and death while walking, sitting lying and standing...while standing, their body not tipping over, the same while sitting and walking.. I haven't heard of anyone tripping... hahahaha

 

 

*** I have never heard the term "Clear Light" in respects to a practice method. Please give reference to such..? :-)

Edited February 15, 2013 by 林愛偉

[RongzomFan]

In dream yoga, you enter the clear light of sleep, and from there you enter a dream.

 

Basically the same thing as wake initiated lucid dreaming, although its combined with transmission of course.

[idiot_stimpy]

Thank you very much for everyones help

[林愛偉]

In dream yoga, you enter the clear light of sleep, and from there you enter a dream.

 

Basically the same thing as wake initiated lucid dreaming, although its combined with transmission of course.

Understood... yet in PL we want to wake up from dreaming, not induce it.

[RongzomFan]

Understood... yet in PL we want to wake up from dreaming, not induce it.

 

 

lol, Pure Lands have deeper meaning in Vajrayana too.

[idiot_stimpy]

For me, being in Pure Land and Clear Light seems to point to the same thing.

[林愛偉]

lol, Pure Lands have deeper meaning in Vajrayana too.

 

lol

 

I appreciate your comments, they pick my "brain"...lol

[Cheshire Cat]

not at all. The inevitable end result in Pure Land Practice is Buddha-hood. States of mind will arise in any practice. Throughout Pure Land Practice, the main goal isn't rebirth in the pure land, it is simply to end false thinking. "Thus, when the mind is pure the land is pure. " 6th Patriarch Hui Neng of the Chan School.

 

Hi,

 

when you speak of buddha-hood, you do so in the perspective of Mahayana concepts of Enlightenment, which is something like acquiring all sorts of supernatural powers and work full time for the benefit of sentient beings 'till the end of the universe.

Cooler than daoist immortality

 

A mahayana enlightened being, can move as he please in the pure lands...

 

But what about those buddhists who practice to reach "cessation", "nibbana", end of rebirth, end of existence?

[林愛偉]

Hi,

 

when you speak of buddha-hood, you do so in the perspective of Mahayana concepts of Enlightenment, which is something like acquiring all sorts of supernatural powers and work full time for the benefit of sentient beings 'till the end of the universe.

Cooler than daoist immortality

 

A mahayana enlightened being, can move as he please in the pure lands...

 

But what about those buddhists who practice to reach "cessation", "nibbana", end of rebirth, end of existence?

 

 

I speak in the Buddhist concept. Spiritual powers and the like are inevitable after the mind has been cleared of false thinking. What is known as spiitual is actually quite normal once the mind is illuminated. Whatever the Buddha said of the realization of Buddhahood, that's what I mean. He spoke all that we have in Buddhism, so whether it be 'Mahayana, Theravada, Chan, etc" that's what I am talking about.

 

The teachings don't contradict unless the cultivator doesn't realize that they are all expedients for specific capacities of mind. For one group, "Theravadan" works, for another "Mahayana". What do they have in common? They are the Buddha's teachings. Either one gets one to enlightenment, either one will lead to each other.

 

Just like Catholicism for those who can take it, Judaism for those who fit with it, Islam for that tradition.. Lord Shakra holds many traditions in different forms. isn't it interesting that all those traditions will get one to the heaven involved with those teachings? None of them are better, overall. They have their function for specific capacities of those living beings who can fit with those teachings. The Buddha did the exact same thing. Gave various methods according to various capacities of living beings.

 

Here's what I wrote/quoted in another post on Nirvana:

 

"Nirvana is not necessarily an after-death state. It is the certification to and attainment of a principle. It is a sanskrit word interpreted to mean, "neither produced, nor destroyed". Since it is "neither produced, nor destroyed", birth and death are ended.One reaches nirvana when one reaches the position of not being subject to birth and death.

 

It is not the Buddha's dying. When the Buddha dies, he enters nirvana; he enters and certifies to the principle of nirvana with its 4 virtues of : Permanence, Bliss, True Self, and Purity.

 

Nirvana is emphatically not death." --- Master Xuan Hua

 

 

End of rebirth is realized, it is an inevitable result from cultivation. Death of the body doesn't make one enter nirvana just because they cultivated the Dharma. It is..."earned" through practice.

 

 

Immortals can travel anywhere they please, yet Buddha Lands do have a "standard" to get to: Either one's virtue and merit is full and have satisfied that lands specific vibrational resonance, or they go there do to their skill (in practice resulting in pure mind and heart, purified mouth, bod and mind karma) then they get to leave to their respective place of "dwelling". That or a Buddha or Bodhisattva takes you there for a glimpse...lol

 

 

When the overall goal is to end false thinking, the means can be many, the end is inevitable. just as long as the means does indeed result in the desired "end".

 

For example: I received some students who needed to hear of specific methods to get to their goal, while others could directly take the main principle (function), and go for the gold.

 

Some required recitation, while others required movement and concentration to realize what they wanted. The main application was concentration power building. It is the same in all of Buddha's teachings that in order to succeed, one needs concentration power (samadhi).

 

Even Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva in the Dharani Sutra spoke of Dhyana (Chan), Secret School, and Pure Land. The min application was concentration to end false thinking. Thus is the fundamental stream that is present in all the Buddha's teachings.

 

Medicine Buddha, Sunlight and Moonlight Bodhisattvas, Vajra Trace Dharma Protecting Spirits, etc (all along this line) all apply concentration strength to realize the fruit of Bodhi. It is the underlying method within the expedients they presented to living beings.

 

 

If the Buddha's teachings on all the methods which were broken up into different schools were false, then none of the various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas would speak the same exact core teaching in their Dharma: Samadhi (Concentration Power).

Edited February 15, 2013 by 林愛偉

[Cheshire Cat]

I speak in the Buddhist concept. [...]

 

No, you speak of a buddhist mahayana concept, claiming that it's the absolute buddhist Truth.

And of those who have a different view, you say "Their mind is inferior and they have an inferior teaching".

 

This is unfair, in my opinion.

But the teaching is the teacher's son and, as people say in my country "Ogni scarrafone è bello a mamma sua", Every child (no matter how ugly) is the most gracious creature in the eyes of his mother.

Therefore, I think that you will never comprehend my point of view.

Edited February 15, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[林愛偉]

No, you speak of a buddhist mahayana concept, claiming that it's the absolute buddhist Truth.

And of those who have a different view, you say "Their mind is inferior and they have an inferior teaching".

 

This is unfair, in my opinion.

But the teaching is the teacher's son and, as people say in my country "Ogni scarrafone è bello a mamma sua", Every child (no matter how ugly) is the most gracious creature in the eyes of his mother.

Therefore, I think that you will never comprehend my point of view.

 

 

Not at all. I speak that the core teaching is all the same. The discriminations between schools defeats the whole point of cultivation.

 

I would never claim one method is more greater than another. for that would not be the Buddha Dharma.

 

It seems that your assumption is the other way around. Many are not understanding what I am truly saying.

 

Added*** My posts are very clear, and straight up, and never have I stated what you say, nor have I meant it. But because I don't give in to petty arguments of this school and that school, my words are twisted.

 

Added*** I will tell you, all the arguing and discussion of methods is of no importance, and only steers people in the direction of further discriminating. My posts point to one thing: To actually PRACTICE the method wholeheartedly, and then decide if it is exactly what people state it is.

 

Added*** So far, in the 10yrs of Pure Land Practice, I have not found any ounce of the nonsense people claim it to be. The same goes for the 25 yrs of both Daoist, Chan, Secret School and Qigong cultivation I have practiced, I have never found it to be any of the commercialized nonsense found out there today.

 

 

 

***Added:

 

I do not discriminate methods, or traditions. I simply do not take apart the Dharma and make a trivial argument as to what is true and what isn't, what did the Buddha say and what he didn't. I have had a very good teacher of the way, and thus taught me that the point is not to see the differences within the Buddha-Dharma, but to realize that the core teachings are the same.

 

If one is going to argue what the Buddha Dharma is, and what "school" does what, then those people should have already spent years and years practicing those methods and have attained all there is to attain from them. Thus, one can say which does what, and in reference to Pure Land, they will realize it is not intermediate (Bardo) experiences, which mean nothing. Just to say if they were a Bardo experience, would that mean there is no benefit whatsoever? Since it isn't Bardo, we can look at past masters of Pure Land and their teachings, thoroughly, from every culture to truly understand, since the conscious mind wants to grasp and things and take things apart.

 

In such a case as to actually apply and practice Pure Land, and actually do what is required under this Dharma Door, one will attain their goal, fulfill the practice and be sure to let those with affinities for that practice know the deal. But by no means is it a petty, Bardo experience with no way of attaining nirvana.

Edited February 15, 2013 by 林愛偉

[林愛偉]

Here I will say this:

 

Pure Land is Chan, is Secret, is Vajra.

Chan is Pure Land, is Secret, is Vajra.

Secret is Pure Land, is Chan, is Vajra.

Vajra is Pure Land, is Chan is Secret.

 

Discriminations abound,

and it is the substance of that mind which it is in.

 

Covered by the myriad things,

dusting seems fruitless.

In time, if it is, will there be a shimmer.

 

No time, when it is, it simply is neither.

[sati]

Thank you

[Tibetan_Ice]

I am very interested to hear about your thoughts, on the difference between the Pure Land and Clear Light?

 

How do they differ from each other.

 

Thank you

 

Kind Regards

 

Hi IS,

There is no difference between the Pure Land, the Buddha Fields and the ultimate Clear Light, except that they are different perspectives of the same thing.

 

The Pure Land is actually the astral planes. The Buddha Fields are astral planes.

 

The Clear Light is what is manifested as the astral planes.

 

From Secret of the Vajra World - The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet - Reginald A. Ray

The doctrine of the three bodies of the Buddha is important for all aspects of tantric teachings. The transmission comes from the ultimate body, the formless absolute, empty aspect of Buddhahood, the dharmakaya, to the body of enjoyment, the sambhogakaya. The latter is the first of the two form-bodies. Its radiant, transcendent form, endowed with the major and minor marks of buddhahood, can be perceived only by enlightened or highly attained beings. The Buddhas of the sambhogakaya level dwell in inconceivably vast pure lands or Buddha-fields, whereas the other expression of the form-body, the nirmanakaya, enters samsara and manifests in various ways in order to free beings from suffering.5

Ray, Reginald A. (2012-12-18). Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet (Kindle Locations 1777-1781). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

 

This is quite a revelation. The sambhogakaya is the astral. Any new ager would recognize that aspect of the astral light and the aspect of enjoyment through the astral body.

 

Thus, we have a new perspective on the mysterious Buddhist three kayas. A new understanding.

 

It is also kind of funny that the author is saying that the astral "can be perceived only by enlightened or highly attained beings.". I know lots of people, including myself, who can astral travel. I've met lots of beings on the astral planes. I'm kind of disappointed. I thought I would find much more advanced concepts in the three kayas. Astral planes.

 

The Clear Light is

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambhogak%C4%81ya

 

Access by advanced practitioners

Sambhogakaya also refers to the luminous form of clear light the Buddhist practitioner attains upon the reaching the highest dimensions of practice.

According to tradition, those skilled in meditation, such as advanced Tibetan lamas and yogis, as well as other highly realized Buddhists, may gain access to the Sambhogakaya and receive direct transmission of doctrine.

 

 

WHAT! It is saying that one can receive transmission via the Sambhogakaya!!! Does this mean that you can get transmissions from highly advanced teachers through the astral plane? That's what it says. Ok, I'm just playing with you. Any spiritual person with a modicum of experience would know that it is true. Beings manifest to you in the astral planes. There is nothing mysterious about it. They are around us all of the time, you just have to open your third eye to see them.

 

The more I learn about Buddhism, and sift through the ominous terminology and mysterious concepts, the more I discover that Buddhism is just like every other teaching, including new age.

 

Here is more about the clear light:

 

CLEAR LIGHT

The actual practice of clear light is closely related to that of dream yoga and is connected with deep sleep. Kalu Rinpoche:

When we fall into deep sleep, without dreams, we are in total darkness, with no consciousness of what happens. The practice of the clear light allows that, during deep sleep, either at the moment when one has just fallen asleep or in the periods alternating with dreams, ignorance is replaced by knowledge and the mind dwells in a state of openness and clarity.28

 

Tashi Namgyal: So, by the practice of this Light Yoga, Samsaric clingings and discriminations will be purified and the Self-Illuminating Wisdom realized. With the Wisdom Fire of the Innate Light, one can destroy all impure habitual thoughts . . . One will then attain the perfect Dharmakaya and Rupakaya, and until the end of Samsara he can, without the slightest effort, help all sentient beings in a countless number of ways.29

 

Through the clear light practice, the practitioner comes to realize the openness and transparency of all existence. Usually, we feel that there is light and there are shadows; there is the real and the unreal; there is truth and there is falsehood. Through the practice of clear light, however, one sees that every experience has its own particular clarity, integrity, and finality. Shadows have as much “beingness” as light; the experience of unreality is as vivid and “real” as the experience of supposed reality. Trungpa Rinpoche: “Luminosity, ösel in Tibetan, [is] all-pervading luminosity. There is nothing at all that is regarded as a dark corner, an area of mystery, anymore. The whole thing is seen as open, brilliant, as things as they really are. There are no mysterious corners left.”30

 

Ray, Reginald A. (2012-12-18). Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet (Kindle Locations 3758-3775). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

 

 

So, don't believe Alwaysoff when he says:

Pure Land is a bardo experience, where one's own wisdom seemingly manifests as Buddhas, realms etc. Can be experienced while alive or dead.

 

Clear light is when the winds (vayus) are slowed down to a significant extent. Winds and mind are the same thing, so if the winds move subtlety that is considered "subtle mind".

 

 

Pure Land is a bardo experience, but it is also easily attainable while living. Just astral travel to those realms..

Clear Light is not different from the Pure Land. And the winds don't slow, they dissolve into the central channel. You can even partially dissolve the winds into the central channel at the third eye, while remaining fully 'awake' and witness the manifestations of the clear light. It is very easy to do if you know how or your third eye is active. Without the dissolution, you don't see the Buddha Fields or Pure Land.

 

So don't believe Alwaysoff when he says that "Clear Light is when... ". You would be ignorant to do so.

 

PHOWA, OR EJECTION

 

3. The luminous bardo of dharmata encompasses the after-death experience of the radiance of the nature of mind, the luminosity or “clear light,” which manifests as sound, color, and light.

 

4. The karmic bardo of becoming is what we generally call the bardo or intermediate state, which lasts from the end of the bardo of dharmata right up until the moment we take on a new birth.12 Two other bardos are important in Tibetan tradition, the bardo of dream (the bardo experienced during the dream state) and the bardo of meditation. The death of an ordinary person is simply a special case of the discontinuity that we experience in each moment of our lives. In ordinary life, when a moment of consciousness ceases, it is immediately followed by another moment of consciousness, arising in our present body. At the moment of death, however, after the last moment of consciousness of this present life ceases, it does not arise again in our present body. Instead, the consciousness relinquishes the body and is reborn in the after-death state. Why do people die when they do? Why does consciousness continually re-arise in a certain body throughout the course of a lifetime and then, suddenly one day and at one moment, no longer arise in that body? After consciousness ceases in one moment, “rebirth consciousness” seeks reembodiment in the next moment. For samsaric people like ourselves, it always seeks the familiar reembodiment of our current physical body and will continue to “reincarnate” in this body as long as it can. When the karma of a certain person’s life is used up or in the event of untimely death, the body no longer can sustain life. In this case, it is no longer a fit base or support for consciousness, which is thus forced to depart. What is the actual process of death? In Tibetan tradition, one dies in two stages, an “outer dissolution” followed by an “inner dissolution.”

 

Ray, Reginald A. (2012-12-18). Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet (Kindle Locations 5133-5149). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

 

 

And Alwaysoff said:

In dream yoga, you enter the clear light of sleep, and from there you enter a dream.

 

Basically the same thing as wake initiated lucid dreaming, although its combined with transmission of course.

 

Everything for Alwaysoff requires a transmission. What a load of crap.

 

 

 

 

 

[RongzomFan]

Everything for Alwaysoff requires a transmission. What a load of crap.

 

Other people have pointed this out to you to.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-with-b-alan-wallace/page-16#entry383816

 

But don't let facts stop you.

[xabir2005]

I am very interested to hear about your thoughts, on the difference between the Pure Land and Clear Light?

 

How do they differ from each other.

 

Thank you

 

Kind Regards

 

There are four levels of pure land. The last level seems to suggest the bardo of clear light. Prior to that are all bardo visions. At the lowest level, one sees a solid place made of jewels with Amitabha Buddha being present etc.

 

 

Pureland practitioner Sinweiy:

 

"There are four kinds of Nirvana equivalent to the 4 Abodes of PL:

Nirvana of pure, clear self-nature = Pure Abode of Good people and good Saints living together 凡圣同居土.

Nirvana with residue = Pure Temporary Abode with residue of Not Knowing 方便有余土, more for Arahants.

Nirvana without residue = Pure Abode of Permanent Reward 实报无障碍土, more for Bodhisattvas.

Nirvana of no dwelling = Pure Abode of Eternal Light and Tranquility 常寂光土, more for Buddhas."

Edited March 8, 2013 by xabir2005

[Seth Ananda]

I speak in the Buddhist concept. Spiritual powers and the like are inevitable after the mind has been cleared of false thinking. What is known as spiitual is actually quite normal once the mind is illuminated. Whatever the Buddha said of the realization of Buddhahood, that's what I mean. He spoke all that we have in Buddhism, so whether it be 'Mahayana, Theravada, Chan, etc" that's what I am talking about.

 

The teachings don't contradict unless the cultivator doesn't realize that they are all expedients for specific capacities of mind. For one group, "Theravadan" works, for another "Mahayana". What do they have in common? They are the Buddha's teachings. Either one gets one to enlightenment, either one will lead to each other.

Thanks for your feedback on this thread

 

Would you be happy to describe the main PL practices from your tradition?

 

Just like Catholicism for those who can take it, Judaism for those who fit with it, Islam for that tradition.. Lord Shakra holds many traditions in different forms. isn't it interesting that all those traditions will get one to the heaven involved with those teachings? None of them are better, overall. They have their function for specific capacities of those living beings who can fit with those teachings. The Buddha did the exact same thing. Gave various methods according to various capacities of living beings.

I thought Buddhists normally viewed the heavenly realms of other traditions as being within the samsaric wheel still as they practitioners usually had not let go of grasping...

Here's what I wrote/quoted in another post on Nirvana:

 

"Nirvana is not necessarily an after-death state. It is the certification to and attainment of a principle. It is a sanskrit word interpreted to mean, "neither produced, nor destroyed". Since it is "neither produced, nor destroyed", birth and death are ended.One reaches nirvana when one reaches the position of not being subject to birth and death.

 

It is not the Buddha's dying. When the Buddha dies, he enters nirvana; he enters and certifies to the principle of nirvana with its 4 virtues of : Permanence, Bliss, True Self, and Purity.

 

Nirvana is emphatically not death." --- Master Xuan Hua

Very cool... I know Buddhism as a whole is trying to achieve this, but what would you say is Pure lands particular strong point in helping one towards Nirvana?

-I dont mean that question as trying to start some 'this is better than that' debate, but rather I think every set of teachings have something that they are really particularly good at, at least for the people suited to it, so I was wondering about PL particular areas of excellence

End of rebirth is realized, it is an inevitable result from cultivation. Death of the body doesn't make one enter nirvana just because they cultivated the Dharma. It is..."earned" through practice.

 

 

Immortals can travel anywhere they please, yet Buddha Lands do have a "standard" to get to: Either one's virtue and merit is full and have satisfied that lands specific vibrational resonance, or they go there do to their skill (in practice resulting in pure mind and heart, purified mouth, bod and mind karma) then they get to leave to their respective place of "dwelling". That or a Buddha or Bodhisattva takes you there for a glimpse...lol

 

 

When the overall goal is to end false thinking, the means can be many, the end is inevitable. just as long as the means does indeed result in the desired "end".

 

For example: I received some students who needed to hear of specific methods to get to their goal, while others could directly take the main principle (function), and go for the gold.

 

Some required recitation, while others required movement and concentration to realize what they wanted. The main application was concentration power building. It is the same in all of Buddha's teachings that in order to succeed, one needs concentration power (samadhi).

 

Even Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva in the Dharani Sutra spoke of Dhyana (Chan), Secret School, and Pure Land. The min application was concentration to end false thinking. Thus is the fundamental stream that is present in all the Buddha's teachings.

 

Medicine Buddha, Sunlight and Moonlight Bodhisattvas, Vajra Trace Dharma Protecting Spirits, etc (all along this line) all apply concentration strength to realize the fruit of Bodhi. It is the underlying method within the expedients they presented to living beings.

 

 

If the Buddha's teachings on all the methods which were broken up into different schools were false, then none of the various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas would speak the same exact core teaching in their Dharma: Samadhi (Concentration Power).

Being a bit of an Alan Wallace fan I also think concentration is supremely important, and almost always overlooked way to quickly by western Buddhists.

What are the favoured concentration methods Pure Land Buddhism practices?