Suspension

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I'll ALSO let you know when it shows up in the SSW PPF go have lunch, i am going to portland later today and wont be on to mess with it for long anyways probably wotn get a chance till after 8:00 PST tonight.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

bump for on fucking topic.


WHERE IS HE?!?

[Aetherous]

The persons who have been suspended have been informed of the action and the reason.

 

It is not the view of the moderators that it is appropriate to air these members' business before the rest of the membership, especially while they are absent and unable to comment on the information we might present. Certainly when these members return they are more than welcome to talk about their thoughts about their short break from the boards if they feel that is productive.

 

 

I think this is flat out a bad policy. The discussions that are moderated on this forum are public...so anything that person might have done should already be known by everyone. The reasons for moderation should even more so be known to everyone else, for multiple reasons.

 

One of those reasons is that you guys aren't making ridiculous decisions.

 

In the past, moderators would post a warning in the thread. If the person continued, the mods would clearly post what action was taken and why. I suggest you stick to that policy. There is also the moderation log section...you should use it.

 

Also, why did it take like THREE DAYS for a moderator to respond to the original questioning? That's a joke, guys.

Edited February 19, 2013 by turtle shell

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

actually, i tend toward turtle shell on that point, it IS public presentation. public is as much involved as person.

[Aetherous]

As I mentioned, the members are certainly free to share any information they want to about the situation when they return. It is not like they got banned without explanation. They just got a bit of a vacation from posting, which is a bit different from being arrested. It would be more like if you got really rowdy in your favorite pub and raised a scene and they asked you not to come back for a couple of weeks (rather than calling the cops on you which would be more like a ban).

 

This is also a stupid policy. We don't want a bunch of bouncers kicking out people who are actually behaving quite well, and giving them "vacations".

 

Raising a scene isn't against the forum rules. Stick to moderating the rules ONLY, rather than making a mess on top of a mess.

[ralis]

I just have to say that it is helpful for mods to post on the thread in question. That way whatever action is being taken is known to the participants of a given thread. Furthermore, given the recent actions by the mods, certain persons that were the most inflammatory have not been banned as far as I know.

 

I will continue to speak out against bigotry in all forms! Bigotry is not an aspect of Taoism.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

edit: heh... no comment

Edited February 19, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Marblehead]

I am trying to remain open-minded while considering this subject of suspensions and banning.

 

Good comments above, on both sides.

 

Here in Florida we have what is known as "The Sunshine Law". This requires 'open to the public' any discussion of laws or regulations that will effect the public. This is a good law.

 

In the real world, any person can be accused of a crime by anyone else. Upon investigation, the person may be charge and arrested for the supposed crime. If this happens it is required that the charges and arrest be made public. Any action after the arrest must be made public. But the person is still innocent until (s)he is judged, with all events prior to the judgement available to the public.

 

I really wouldn't want to find out that members of this board went missing in the middle of the night, never to be seen again.

 

Turtle Shell presented great thoughts in the posts above.

 

Warnings used to be made public; moderators logs still haven't been used properly regarding consideration of future possible action and action taken regarding suspensions and bannings.

 

It is my opinion that one of a Taoist characterists would be to treat all equally. That would be to say that if any person were penalized for an infraction then every person who made a similar infraction must be penalized as well. I have the feeling that this concept has been violated.

 

Again, I am an Anarchist. That is the Way of Tao. But if there are going to be rules they must apply to all equally. Without exception!

[Apech]

Well I'm all for the open-ness of the law in the real world ... but then issuing a suspension for an insult or whatever is hardly major legislation more like a misdemeanour offense ... if we are going to make that sort of comparison. Having done my stint as a mod I would have to say it is completely unreasonable to expect the mods to take the time to explain themselves every time they do something. For several reasons ... one being that it takes up a lot of time and these people give their time freely on a voluntary basis ... another being they don't report to us they report if to anyone apart from each other to Sean. Really the only person owed an explanation is the person being suspended and that only so they are clear what it is that earned the suspension and can avoid repeat behaviour.

 

We use this board as individuals free to come and go as we please but when we do we just have to accept that there is moderation and that's that ... if you don't like it go start your own board with no moderation or endless threads going round in circles discussing why so and so got banned ... that's up to you.

[Marblehead]

Well I'm all for the open-ness of the law in the real world ... but then issuing a suspension for an insult or whatever is hardly major legislation more like a misdemeanour offense ... if we are going to make that sort of comparison. Having done my stint as a mod I would have to say it is completely unreasonable to expect the mods to take the time to explain themselves every time they do something. For several reasons ... one being that it takes up a lot of time and these people give their time freely on a voluntary basis ... another being they don't report to us they report if to anyone apart from each other to Sean. Really the only person owed an explanation is the person being suspended and that only so they are clear what it is that earned the suspension and can avoid repeat behaviour.

 

We use this board as individuals free to come and go as we please but when we do we just have to accept that there is moderation and that's that ... if you don't like it go start your own board with no moderation or endless threads going round in circles discussing why so and so got banned ... that's up to you.

Pretty fiesty, aren't you, this morning (your afternoon)?

 

I am aware that moderation is voluntary. I am also aware that there was a time when this board had no moderation. You and I both joined when there was none. We both joined and stayed during that period of no moderation.

 

And yes, the moderators report to Sean. That is understandable since Sean is the owner of the board.

 

No, the mods do not report to we, the general membership. But it sure would be nice if they kept us informed.

 

Moderating. What a nice word/concept. The middle person between two extremes.

 

The main reason I started the thread and am still active in it is that I really wouldn't want this board to become another Teahouse or boards with similar operating modes.

 

And yes, anyone can join and leave the board at their own free will. But wouldn't it be better if we can increase the active membership of the board rather than decreasing it to the point where all that is discussed is penis size?

[Apech]

Pretty fiesty, aren't you, this morning (your afternoon)?

 

I am aware that moderation is voluntary. I am also aware that there was a time when this board had no moderation. You and I both joined when there was none. We both joined and stayed during that period of no moderation.

 

And yes, the moderators report to Sean. That is understandable since Sean is the owner of the board.

 

No, the mods do not report to we, the general membership. But it sure would be nice if they kept us informed.

 

Moderating. What a nice word/concept. The middle person between two extremes.

 

The main reason I started the thread and am still active in it is that I really wouldn't want this board to become another Teahouse or boards with similar operating modes.

 

And yes, anyone can join and leave the board at their own free will. But wouldn't it be better if we can increase the active membership of the board rather than decreasing it to the point where all that is discussed is penis size?

 

I'm always feisty ... well maybe not.

 

Your points are completely reasonable and I think the best way to increase board membership is to have quality threads discussion interesting topics in a pleasant way ... allowing for banter and joshing as a normal real life conversation would.

 

Any thread discussing my penis size would be short ... well not that short ... average ... completely adequate ... not that you would look at the thread and laugh .... more like you'd just shrug your shoulders and say well yes its a thread ... it does its job ... maybe not the longest thread in the world but hey its enough ... its the thread that God gave me ... that miserly bastard ... that sort of thing ...

[Marblehead]

How the hell do you expect me to respond to that?

[Apech]

How the hell do you expect me to respond to that?

 

 

You could say ... bet my thread's bigger than yours ... or something.

[Marblehead]

You could say ... bet my thread's bigger than yours ... or something.

Well, my Lily thread is longer than ... nevermind.

 

I'm pretty sure that if I post in only my Lily thread I would never be suspended. How boring would that be?

 

A while back Stig (and others) tried to get a reassessment of moderation here on TaoBums. The timing was bad, IMO.

 

I don't know if now is a good time to talk about it. I am only going with my gut, my intuition.

 

And remember, what inspired me to do this was the ugliness of recent posts that had been preaching hatred and bigotry where moderation was non-existant but yet a member who was speaking out against such hate speech was the one who got banned. Yes, he got personal. But it was personal for him.

 

 

Anyhow, I will continue to speak to this until I feel I have said all that needs be said.

[Apech]

Well, my Lily thread is longer than ... nevermind.

 

I'm pretty sure that if I post in only my Lily thread I would never be suspended. How boring would that be?

 

A while back Stig (and others) tried to get a reassessment of moderation here on TaoBums. The timing was bad, IMO.

 

I don't know if now is a good time to talk about it. I am only going with my gut, my intuition.

 

And remember, what inspired me to do this was the ugliness of recent posts that had been preaching hatred and bigotry where moderation was non-existant but yet a member who was speaking out against such hate speech was the one who got banned. Yes, he got personal. But it was personal for him.

 

 

Anyhow, I will continue to speak to this until I feel I have said all that needs be said.

 

 

Well at the risk of being feisty again ... I remember the Stig version of how moderation was supposed to work and discussed it with him as I was a mod at the time. It had a lot of merit but it was a kind of moderation by consensus ... very time consuming and ultimately irrelevant because it wasn't what sean wanted ... and most importantly some people wanted less moderation ... some people no moderation at all ...some people wanted more ... so that's hard to deal with because different people wanted different things ... and it was not as if there was a general agreement about how it should work ... this included a lot of insults hurled at moderators (including me) which didn't help. It was all very bad tempered and negative in my view. I really don't see why a few volunteers trying to make TBs a better place for general posters had to put up with all that over a couple of short term suspensions.

 

The issue is that there are existing rules ... no insulting and swearing at people and so on which everyone knows and will be enforced ... then there is the issue of political views or homophobia or racism ... which if couched in so-called rational terms (i.e. without swearing or insult in the normal sense) then what are the mod team supposed to do? If someone says that they think a homosexual lifestyle is unhealthy then should this be censored out or can we rely on people challenging these ideas? If someone says there are differences between races because some religious teaching says so ... then should that be censored out? When I was a mod I can't remember ever taking any action on content ... I moved something i thought racist to the Pit once and argued against it ... but that's all I can remember ... it was always behaviour that was moderated not ideas. i think in extremis I would think something like neo-nazi white supremecist literature should just be deleted ... but I can't recall seeing anything like that on here anyway.

[Aetherous]

The significance of this may be lost on you, but and I have been moderating for about two days now, and prior to that there have been only three moderators after a number of them stepped down.

 

I realize that...

 

This is not a paid job, but a volunteer role to assist in keeping the community running smoothly here. A number of policies are being discussed and evaluated right now and those policies will be determined, enacted, and enforced based on rational discussion, not knee jerk reactions and placating of persons who yell the loudest. This is not the past, and your expectations do not seem particularly realistic right now based on the present environment.

 

My expectations are very realistic as well as rational. It's a shame to see a new moderator already getting defensive about their position, and being incapable of considering a fair point of view.

 

Being an unpaid volunteer is not an excuse to do a bad job. If you care about this forum, you will attempt to be good...not to defend your new position from "attacks" of people who you think are simply yelling the loudest.

 

Here is a guideline for you: you can tell the moderation is good when no one is talking about the moderation.

 

I used it as an example. Perhaps a more appropriate example would be raising a scene repeatedly even after direct warnings from moderators, which would also be known as trolling, which would be against the forum rules. I hope that is clearer to you.

 

That is. I definitely don't think it applies to everyone who was recently suspended, though.

 

Just because you don't see the reasons behind every decision that is made does not mean that there are not reasons. Actions are not instantaneously tied to behaviors, as I mentioned, but are the result of rational discussions by the moderator group and @sean. These delays may make it less obvious to onlookers why decisions are being made, but that is not a reason for us to broadcast a member's business to others if they are not interested in that information being shared.

 

Like I said, it's a very bad policy to waste time (24 hours should be the maximum amount of time to come to a moderator decision), and it's a very bad policy to keep the reasoning private. People should know what exactly is wrong behavior at this forum, and know the exact line not to cross. People should know why moderators decide to moderate in some cases, and decide to do absolutely nothing in other cases...or even laugh at the expense of someone who has been offended.

 

Really, take this as constructive criticism: the moderation here has been sucking. I hope you can realize that, as a newbie, and fix it. But with your attitude displayed here, viator, I doubt you will.

[Birch]

"People should know what exactly is wrong behavior at this forum, and know the exact line not to cross"

 

 

There are a few ways of knowing, I think. Some of them are 'internal' IMO, some of them are 'external'. When the two become one is what (part of) my cultivation practice is about.

 

This is a great thread for info for me. Thank you.

[Marblehead]

Well at the risk of being feisty again ...

That's okay. You have your opinions and understanding and they should be heard. But then, I have mine and feel they should be heard as well.

 

And true, you did not always have a pleasant time when you were a moderator. And you were attacked personally and I think that is very wrong I hope that none of the moderators think that I am doing anything remotely close to that.

 

And as it is true at this time, there is the policy (of Sean) to have moderators. But moderators should moderate, not suspend and ban people for being confrontational. And this is why I prefer editing or having objectional posts edited rather than suspending or banning the member. And I feel this should be a matter of membership awareness. I truely feel that we members should know what actions are being taken by the moderators and why the actions are being taken. This, I feel will dramatically reduce the occurrance of such posts.

 

I do not like hatred and bigotted speech. That is what has the world in the condition it is today. There is a new thread that is speaking to this subject.

[Marblehead]

I truely hope that none of us are taking what is being said here personally. The discussion is concerning suspensions of members by the moderation team and openness of actions taken by the moderation team. And in reality, this thread is meant for consideration by Sean. It's about minimal moderation while maintaining respect for all members.

[Aetherous]

viator,

I'm surprised at your responses, and see that spending any more time speaking with you will be an absolute waste. You are one of the worst moderators I've ever seen here (and it's only what like day 2 for you?), and I hope you step down or are removed from your position soon.

[Marblehead]

viator,

 

 

Now that was personal. Shame on you. (Yes, I am joking but there is some seriousness in there too.

[Aetherous]

True.

[Apech]

viator,

 

I'm surprised at your responses, and see that spending any more time speaking with you will be an absolute waste. You are one of the worst moderators I've ever seen here (and it's only what like day 2 for you?), and I hope you step down or are removed from your position soon.

 

 

I wish I could dislike posts as well as like them. I think that was just out of order. I hope you have the decency to withdraw this comment.

[Aetherous]

Yeah, fuck no.

 

...

 

Of course you think that or they would not be your expectations.

 

This comment was highly offensive to me, and in my opinion it's the thinking of someone who isn't fit for a position of moderation.

 

When you have two sides of a population that want things that are in opposition someone will always be complaining about something.

 

This is a convenient way of justifying making poor decisions...and it's also untrue. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

 

Also, this is a convenient generalization to make when you are one of the ones talking about the moderation.

 

This was just writing off my point of view completely...also ignoring the fact that others besides myself have been complaining for the past couple of weeks at least.

The obvious conclusion you seem to be shooting for is that there must be something wrong with the moderation, when it appears more to me that we are simply not doing things the way you feel they should be done.

 

Totally inconsiderate point of view...someone who should not be moderating anyone else but themselves.

 

 

Again, it is not as though anyone has been banned. One would think, based on how you have chosen to react to this situation that these members were being held in a prison cell somewhere.

 

This is a dumbass argument. Suspensions are annoying, especially when done without reason or any notification. Making it seem like I'm making a big deal out of nothing...well, it actually is something.

Basically, I see no reason to detract my comment to viator.

Edited February 19, 2013 by turtle shell

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I tend toward making public affairs public and keeping private affairs private.


I dont talk about my sex life or what girls i've been with or how. but i will shout at the top of a soapbox to get your attention of i see a misuse of authoritah.



The problem right now, is that we dont know what is a misuse of authority because we dont see what is going on between the mods.


We dont have a completely solid grasp on the event, and so we seek to understand why our friend has been put on a "temporary vacation".


There are TWO


read it:


T W O



TWO problems right now.




ONE, the biggest problem:
People getting butthurt. no offense, but nothing that is going on is as big of a deal as it is being treated

and two...
just as big actually...

TWO: We are not being informed, by the mods, as to what their reasonings are for their authorizations and administrations.

This makes it difficult for us to even understand point ONE, which is why "we" are getting butthurt...




So in the end, this is a fault on both parties.




Now kiss and make out.