Buddhist Shaolin and Taoist alchemy differences

[Shagrath]

In many books on Shaolin practice I have found that they are talking just about Ba Duan Jin, Yi Jin Jing and Xi Sui JIng. That they focus on clearing energy blockages from body and packaging energy to tendons, ligaments and bone marrow and lower dan tien, mix water and fire, so they become better "conductors" of energy, hence their inner power.

 

As I read about Taoist practices there are much more detailed "energetic anatomy". They focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water, whole Mantak Chia program, etc.

 

Ofc there are also meditations included into these practices as primary practice and as the most crucial.

 

Are these correct information? Do you have something to add to this? Is there anything else that I should consider for understanding better these practices?

 

 

 

 

PS: Please do not go off-topic. I don't care who's kung fu better, or should I avoid something. If you do not have any information worth sharing, please do not share anything. I really wish to learn something constructive about these practices, to sort out currently chaotic knowledge, and not to read about just plain arguing without end and without any sense.

[adept]

You already have a thread on this !

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27084-buddhist-and-taoist-energy-cultivation-differences/

[Shagrath]

Yes, sadly I am aware of that. There is not one constructive post made that is concerning topic. Since I cannot delete other post, nor I can delete entire topic it was easier to make a new one with PS about not going into off topic subject.

 

In last topic from all the post you can see on few places that I reasked the question about my concerns, and non of the other topic relate in anyhow to my questions. I don't care about higher cultivation and spirituality. That I have covered. I am interested in energy cultivation differences and nothing else. And especially between Taoist and Shaolin Buddhist not Tibetan, Vajrayana etc

 

I really don't know how to get straight answers without topic going into pointless argument.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Shagrath

[adept]

Yeah, it's kinda sad when it goes off-topic.

 

I would say that there is a cross-over in these practices. A lot of the Shaolin arts became fused with Daoist practices and vice versa. For instance, Baduanjin has lots of variations, Daoist and Shaolin. I practice a Shaolin version myself.

Not all Daoist meditative practices are concerned with MCO etc. And not all Shaolin arts are hard qigong either.

[Shagrath]

Oh!!! Thank you.

 

So basically it is impossible to make definitive distinction between those two approaches because they influenced one another a lot in a long period of time. And basically the concepts of micro cosmic orbit, macro cosmic orbit, muscle/tendon changing, brain/marrow washing, etc cannot be divided into groups like taoist practice or authentic buddhist/shaolin, all of them practice all those practices it's just a matter of individual priority (e.g. some shaolin individuals focus more on inner energies, some taoists focus on external hard qigong).

[Maddie]

One thing I've been confused about and trying to reconcile is the apparent contradiction of martial arts and Buddhism. As Buddhism is about not harming people and Shaolin trains in martial arts which is about fighting people I'm not sure how these two reconcile. Don't get me wrong I think Shaolin is cool, and I like martial arts, but as I study Buddhism more I'm confused about this.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

As Buddhism is about not harming people and Shaolin trains in martial arts which is about fighting people I'm not sure how these two reconcile.

 

I guess learning martial arts is good for discipline and health, and will only actually be used on people in a self-defence situation.

[Cheshire Cat]

A few quotes from Master Wang Xian Zhai

 

 

"Like a student of Zen, who starts with religious discipline, becomes skillful in quietude, has an insight, finds evidence of the fountainhead of one's spirit, comprehends the void and then finally reaches the highest achievement; only then can one learn the Tao. What Zen is, the martial arts are aswell." - p7, The Right Path of YiQuan, (2001)

 

"The top of the head as if hanging from the sky (the head... when this vertex is like suspended... the 'white clouds can naturally gather to the peak', and a bit of miraculous brightness hangs from the vertex, this is also the basis of Zen)." p16, The Right Path of YiQuan.

[Maddie]

I started off with mostly Taoist practices. Then I gave the Buddhist approach a try. But I am in TCM school which is primarily built on a Taoist foundation so it gives me a good opportunity to compare and contrast the similarities and differences between the two. These are some of the things I've noticed from a personal experience point of view.

 

So I began with the Taoist approach which focuses a lot on the five elements, yin and yang, the organs and meridians, qi and all those Taoist sort of things. So for example I would do a heart meditation using the healing sound and the inner smile. I would gain insight into what was in my heart/shen/mind and alternate between reaching a degree of stillness in the practice alternating with becoming aware of unpleasant feelings, thoughts and tendencies.

 

Then I began to consider the Buddhist approach. They do not focus so much on form in the Taoist sense. You don't work on all those aspects that I listed above. Their approach is more "abstract" as you focus on what is in the mind, and what is the mind but with out all the "form" aspects. So in doing this I'd also reach a degree of stillness as well as becoming aware of the less than pleasant things with in the mind.

 

So I don't claim to be an expert and perhaps someone does have a very good explanation for this, but what I'm wondering is if by using these two different techniques yet achieving similar results and sensations what is the real difference?

[Antares]

"Old school" kung fu arts were very similar to taoist arts. At contemporary Shaolin they practice different arts, more external.

Many taoists do practice now arts which are believed originated from chan buddhism kung fu elaborated by Boddhidharma.

Many taoists practice baduanjin now, tendons muscles change and 18 hands lohan. This is just an example here:

http://www.amazon.com/18-Buddha-Hands-Qigong-Exploration/dp/0924071990/ref=pd_cp_mov_1

 

You can read excerpts from the book there and it has taoist energetic structure. Another case there are many new age calisthenics like 8 pieces of brocade which working more with muscles and will give you some flexibility and good physical conditions. Ancient Shaolin arts were incorporated with taoists arts and there are not much differences in general if any .

Edited May 20, 2013 by Eugene

[Maddie]

"Old school" kung fu arts were very similar to taoist arts. At contemporary Shaolin they practice different arts, more external.

Many taoists do practice now arts which are believed originated from chan buddhism kung fu elaborated by Boddhidharma.

Many taoists practice baduanjin now, tendons muscles change and 18 hands lohan. This is just an example here:

http://www.amazon.com/18-Buddha-Hands-Qigong-Exploration/dp/0924071990/ref=pd_cp_mov_1

 

You can read excerpts from the book there and it has taoist energetic structure. Another case there are many new age calisthenics like 8 pieces of brocade which working more with muscles and will give you some flexibility and good physical conditions. Ancient Shaolin arts were incorporated with taoists arts and there are not much differences in general if any .

 

Yea if you think about it there are a lot of similarities. Both talk about reaching stillness, lessening desire, going with in. Buddhists call the ultimate goal obtaining Nirvana, Taoists call it obtaining the Tao. In the end whats the real difference?

[ChiDragon]

In many books on Shaolin practice I have found that they are talking just about Ba Duan Jin, Yi Jin Jing and Xi Sui JIng. That they focus on clearing energy blockages from body and packaging energy to tendons, ligaments and bone marrow and lower dan tien, mix water and fire, so they become better "conductors" of energy, hence their inner power.

 

As I read about Taoist practices there are much more detailed "energetic anatomy". They focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water, whole Mantak Chia program, etc.

 

Ofc there are also meditations included into these practices as primary practice and as the most crucial.

 

Are these correct information? Do you have something to add to this? Is there anything else that I should consider for understanding better these practices?

 

Yes, these are not correct information. It is because energy cannot be blocked. Chi blockage was an misinterpretation. In TCM, Chi blockage means the function of a organ was out of order; it can be completely or partially. If more thoughts added to that will be very misleading. When people interpret as "energy blockage", there goes the endless confusion.

 

"focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

 

Channels are nothing but place holders; only the physical body can be strengthened.

 

"nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

Unless they were interpreted esoterically, otherwise, they make no sense to an ordinary person.

[Shagrath]

Yes, these are not correct information. It is because energy cannot be blocked. Chi blockage was an misinterpretation. In TCM, Chi blockage means the function of a organ was out of order; it can be completely or partially. If more thoughts added to that will be very misleading. When people interpret as "energy blockage", there goes the endless confusion.

 

"focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

 

Channels are nothing but place holders; only the physical body can be strengthened.

 

"nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water"

Unless they were interpreted esoterically, otherwise, they make no sense to an ordinary person.

 

THX

[Wells]

Yes, these are not correct information. It is because energy cannot be blocked. Chi blockage was an misinterpretation. In TCM, Chi blockage means the function of a organ was out of order; it can be completely or partially. If more thoughts added to that will be very misleading. When people interpret as "energy blockage", there goes the endless confusion.

 

 

So why exactly works acupuncturing chi channels with needles...?

[Maddie]

So why exactly works acupuncturing chi channels with needles...?

haha, I was just getting ready to say something about that. Yea the whole idea behind acupuncture is that channels do get blocked up, that the qi does stagnate, and that they way that an acupuncture needle works is by unblocking the qi along the course of the meridian.

 

Its interesting cause in the clinic I'll have a patient that has absolutely no understanding of the theory what so ever, and frequently once I put a needle in they will say "oh I feel that going all the way down to my ______ ". The interesting thing is, is that with out knowing it they just described the course of that particular meridian that I had just needled.

[ChiDragon]

So why exactly works acupuncturing chi channels with needles...?

 

I have a lot to tell you. It'll take sometime for me to prepare it.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Maddie]

Ok so I think Shaolin is very cool, but I'm confused because the precepts of a Buddhist monk don't allow them to hurt anyone, so how did these warrior monks get around this?

 

This topic has baffled me for sometime. It's even one of the reasons I got out of the Army. I was a Christian at the time and I felt that the teachings of Jesus precluded taking life.

[林愛偉]

One thing I've been confused about and trying to reconcile is the apparent contradiction of martial arts and Buddhism. As Buddhism is about not harming people and Shaolin trains in martial arts which is about fighting people I'm not sure how these two reconcile. Don't get me wrong I think Shaolin is cool, and I like martial arts, but as I study Buddhism more I'm confused about this.

 

Shaolin learned martial arts from generals who either were exiled, and then went into hiding, and or retired, and lived their days cultivating. They then taught what they knew to the monks, and that was that. Later, the monks just didn't practice and became lazy. Then Bodhidharma came along, taught them some methods to increase their inner strength. Later on, both the ideas of Chan and movement were pieced together, and the Chan principles of non-discrimination were a focal point in Shaolin Martial Arts.

 

THUS, the link between martial arts and cultivation isn't in how well you can kill, but how well you can control yourself from hurting another. The movements generally brought health and wellness, the cultivation amped up energy and increased the strength of the Shen of the person. This made it better to apply one self in Chan practice.

 

Fighting was just an outcome of the methods, nothing more. And the more you practiced, the more proficient you became at the applications. Thus, becoming a protector of the Dharma through the method of self defense was created. -)

[寒月 Hanyue]

In many books on Shaolin practice I have found that they are talking just about Ba Duan Jin, Yi Jin Jing and Xi Sui JIng. That they focus on clearing energy blockages from body and packaging energy to tendons, ligaments and bone marrow and lower dan tien, mix water and fire, so they become better "conductors" of energy, hence their inner power.

 

As I read about Taoist practices there are much more detailed "energetic anatomy". They focus on strengthening all 3 dan tiens, central channel, 8 extraordinary channels, nourish heaven (stars, sun, moon), earth (soil, water, wind), man (jing, qi, shen), fire-water, whole Mantak Chia program, etc.

 

Ofc there are also meditations included into these practices as primary practice and as the most crucial.

 

Are these correct information? Do you have something to add to this? Is there anything else that I should consider for understanding better these practices?

 

 

 

 

PS: Please do not go off-topic. I don't care who's kung fu better, or should I avoid something. If you do not have any information worth sharing, please do not share anything. I really wish to learn something constructive about these practices, to sort out currently chaotic knowledge, and not to read about just plain arguing without end and without any sense.

 

It is correct and incorrect information at the same time. The simple answer, which some may not like is;

 

The yijinjing and xi suijing are Daoist derived methods of cultivation they are not Buddhist. Although they have been adopted.

 

The statement is due to two primary facts;

• One: The Buddhist texts do not use or dicuss the term or idea of yijin (changing tendons), nor what it means or refers to. Texts in the Daozang (Daoist canon) do discuss this concept.
• Two: The oldest text we have of the yijinjing, was written, and disseminated, by a Daoist.The earliest known extent version is from the 17th century. Which has an undated postscript by an author using the penname Zining Daoren 紫凝道人 (Concentrated Purple Daoist)

Zining Daoren attributed the text to Damo (Bodhidharma), however despite it becoming a very popular text and seeping its way into Chinese thought, novels, and so on. Even at the time it was not considered authentic, in the sense that various claims regarding certain historical people were not accurate. The idea of Damo teaching the monks at Shaolin etc stems from this document and is largely dis-credited. But the myth outshines history.

 

That is not to say however that the method of "yijin" is not older than the text, whether it had that name or not. But it means that what most regard relating to the practice, which does come from this text, is not as true as some would have you believe.

 

I am sure there is information that can be used to debate and argue this point. However my bringing this up is not to change anyone's thinking. It is simply to highlight that there is no simple answer and there is often more to these things when you scratch below the surface. At the very least it means that these myths should be taken as such, stories and myths and not facts about the practice or methods.

 

Clearing blockages, packing qi, strengthening dantian and so on. These are often very mis-understood things, and there are a variety of ways that both "Daoists" and "Buddhists" approach them in practice or how much value they put on them. There is no "Daoists do this- Buddhists do this" as such regarding these things. Both of them have methods that exercise the physcial body to maintain it, both of them have qigong methods and meditation methods.

 

Finally, there is no simple-complex "energy-anatomy" dichtomy as far as I am aware. It is what it is, the apparent difference, when there is one, is more about what they feel the need to go on about, not what they acknowledge as existing or what they experience.

 

Just because some do not go on about something, does not mean they are not aware of it or do not beleive it exists. Usually they do not want you to be distracted.

 

Just because some make things very complex, does not mean that it is all so important and that it cannot be ignored. Usually it means they want to confuse and distract you.

 

The reality is somewhere inbetween.

 

TCM is a whole different story, and has nothing to do with Daoism or Buddhism. Why? Because it was invented with the intent of stripping all such "superstitious" and "backward" things out of medicine. As such the remnant aspects that do appear to have correlation are usually so distorted as to be pointless exploring.

 

Best,

Edited June 5, 2013 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Ok so I think Shaolin is very cool, but I'm confused because the precepts of a Buddhist monk don't allow them to hurt anyone, so how did these warrior monks get around this?

 

This topic has baffled me for sometime. It's even one of the reasons I got out of the Army. I was a Christian at the time and I felt that the teachings of Jesus precluded taking life.

 

Buddhist monks used to hunt down and kill shamans in Mongolia and Siberia. No 'war' or warriorship, it was about control, power and politics.

 

The "peaceful" image of Buddhists we have today is a modern construction, given the history I've read over the years

[Cheshire Cat]

Buddhist monks used to hunt down and kill shamans in Mongolia and Siberia. No 'war' or warriorship, it was about control, power and politics.

 

The "peaceful" image of Buddhists we have today is a modern construction, given the history I've read over the years

 

This is interesting.

Can you link some sources on this?

[寒月 Hanyue]

This is interesting.

Can you link some sources on this?

 

I will look for you. I read about it a long time ago. But you can google it. As with all history accounts and versions vary.

 

[edit:update]

 

All my journals are in storage so can't go through those.

 

"At first sight, Buddhism should have made a better fit with native beliefs than Christianity or Islam, because it could incorporate traditional deities and rituals, but the reality was different. Monks viewed the shamans and other tribal spiritual functionaries as rivals with opposed moral codes, and took ruthless action against them."

 

"The real problem in Siberia was that which drew Buddhist hostility upon shamans"

 

R. Hutton: Shamans

 

"the poor shamanists were everywhere hunted down. No forests, no mountain could hide them from the vengence of the lamas."

 

N. Basilov: Chosen by the spirits

 

If you are interested look in to it.

Edited June 5, 2013 by snowmonki

[Maddie]

Buddhist monks used to hunt down and kill shamans in Mongolia and Siberia. No 'war' or warriorship, it was about control, power and politics.

 

The "peaceful" image of Buddhists we have today is a modern construction, given the history I've read over the years

But the precept of not harming or killing others is as old as the Sangha. Deviation from that is the basis of my question in the first place.

[寒月 Hanyue]

But the precept of not harming or killing others is as old as the Sangha. Deviation from that is the basis of my question in the first place.

 

As may be, however I will tell you now that if you seriously look into the perception and imagery of many things from the past you will find that how we view such things is largely a recent construction and is not accurate regarding the reality of the past.

 

I have found this to be true with many things. Read critically and study old and new writings, make up your own mind.

 

Now you can argue that what is done "in the name of" by people who feel they are, or in fact do legitimately represent something, is not actually representative of the thing they claim to represent.

 

Wars and killing have often occured "in the name of" one religion or another.