Advantages and Disadvantages of staying in the Lower Dan Tien

[Dogen]

I am familiar with methods that ask one to stay centered in the Lower Dan Tien.

 

The theory behind this is that one powers up the whole body by accessing the specific energy of the Lower Dan Tien. It is also considered to be the physical energy center and to be one that grounds people.

 

However the theory is that it will open other "chakras" naturally. Such as the crown/third eye, connecting one to "home"

 

I currently have the opinion that keeping awareness on the lower dan tien is by no means natural and by no means wuwei, sure some people can dress it up as somehow being natural but for me it feels very forced and makes me tense and start thinking a lot.

 

If I let go of being aware of the lower dan tien, all the energy goes to my crown/above my head/third eye and I get very high easily. Instant enlightenment, If I start thinking of my lower dan tien, I become agitated and feel forced and start overthinking, this is annoying to me, as apparantely this means something is wrong with me when I am already there in a way.

 

However often I get too high and need to be grounded so things like being aware of the lower dan tien would help. Also sometimes my physical/sexual energy is out of whack.

 

No matter how much people try to convince me trying to be in the lower dan tien however phrased just seems like trying and effort taking me out of wuwei.

 

I see some advantages and some disadvantages.

 

I am interested in hearing some views/advice on this that are unbiased and undogmatic.

 

Thanks.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Dogen

[eye_of_the_storm]

How about the Heart?

[Dogen]

Well it is interesting you mention that, many very high level teachers emphasise keeping your attention on your heart, many high level teachers say dont keep your attention anywhere this will only lead to you feeling blocked. Some will say change your focus depending on what you need.

 

I would say maybe I feel like this because my lower dan tien is comparatively weaker than upper dan tien and also my heart chakra is probably more blocked too.

 

So again what one high level teacher says is often completely different to another and my own experiences, I have no idea if everyone feels agitated when "keeping attention" on certain parts of the body, and finds it difficult to let go.

 

However I was reading on this site about a zen master who got sick very often so he practiced a melting butter technique to ground himself and keeping his attention on his lower dan tien.

[Jetsun]

I have read a few different people say that the lower Dan Tien is the only physical place in the human body you can focus on without it causing problems, if you focus on any of your organs or brain it can cause serious problems.

[Dogen]

Hmmm I agree with that

 

But why the need to focus on any part of the body, letting go seems so much easier.

[Dogen]

Intuition tells me to stay a couple of hours a day awareness of lower dan tien meditations, and the rest let go.

 

Recently I have just let go and feel great generally until my physical energy feels unbalanced. Sometimes I do certain Qigong with attention on the Lower Dan Tien and then it feels like my lower Dan Tien is naturally open by itself and there is no need to focus on it.

 

Different dan tiens have different flavours of energy, the upper dan tien is very spiritual and heavenly, the middle dan tien seems more about love and emotions, it seems the lower dan tien is a lot more about power/physical/sexual energy.

 

Also walking/standing seems very awkward if I keep attention on lower dan tien. When letting go my posture is very good.

[Jetsun]

Hmmm I agree with that

 

But why the need to focus on any part of the body, letting go seems so much easier.

 

There isn't necessarily it is just a Taoist technique done for a particular purpose, the basic technique of the Buddha was just to be mindful. Mindful of thoughts, emotions, sensation and Dharma.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Jetsun

[Cheshire Cat]

I am interested in hearing some views/advice on this that are unbiased and undogmatic.

 

There's a lot of misunderstanding about this matter.

99% of people who talk about this, know nothing and experienced little.

 

Now, I tell you what nobody was able to tell me when I had your questions.

I practiced concentration in the heart center until absurd pain: it's not a safe spot.

 

The safe points are: third eye and navel, or arms and legs.

Stop.

I say this from my personal experience.

You may think that the sacrum could be safe. It's not. Don't practice concentration on the spine if you are serious.

 

When one starts to open chi channels in the spine for real, this will produce a dramatic increase of sexual energy: a tremendous lust. Nothing the ordinary men ever experienced.

This is because sexual energy is affected by gravity: the energy from the spine falls down naturally to the sexual organ.

 

And, if one is celibate (as he's supposed to be if he wants to have some real results and not delusions), semen will flow into the bladder and his pee will be foamy and whitish.

 

But, if you start your cultivation from the dantien area, this will supply the necessary "pressure" for the energy to raise the spine safely and not fall down.

[Ya Mu]

I am familiar with methods that ask one to stay centered in the Lower Dan Tien.

 

The theory behind this is that one powers up the whole body by accessing the specific energy of the Lower Dan Tien. It is also considered to be the physical energy center and to be one that grounds people.

 

However the theory is that it will open other "chakras" naturally. Such as the crown/third eye, connecting one to "home"

 

I currently have the opinion that keeping awareness on the lower dan tien is by no means natural and by no means wuwei, sure some people can dress it up as somehow being natural but for me it feels very forced and makes me tense and start thinking a lot.

 

If I let go of being aware of the lower dan tien, all the energy goes to my crown/above my head/third eye and I get very high easily. Instant enlightenment, If I start thinking of my lower dan tien, I become agitated and feel forced and start overthinking, this is annoying to me, as apparantely this means something is wrong with me when I am already there in a way.

 

However often I get too high and need to be grounded so things like being aware of the lower dan tien would help. Also sometimes my physical/sexual energy is out of whack.

 

No matter how much people try to convince me trying to be in the lower dan tien however phrased just seems like trying and effort taking me out of wuwei.

 

I see some advantages and some disadvantages.

 

I am interested in hearing some views/advice on this that are unbiased and undogmatic.

 

Thanks.

There is a definite difference in mental "focusing" versus a gentle awareness. Suggest you don't apply so much effort of mental and only put gentle awareness on dan tian. The other energy centers can be dealt with in different ways.

 

Our method is twofold:

1) through keeping the gentle awareness on dan tian, the balance begins to occur by energy going upward (once energy field is established and reaches a certain density and a certain vibration) in a natural progressive manner, as the centers balance out. The reasons for this are many but one can look at it like this: bypassing a center and going to another can lead to an imbalance, such as mental imbalance. In other words, if a person has not dealt with emotional manifestations leading to energy imbalance how can they expect to be FULLY open to true heart? I have seen many problems caused by not fully allowing this natural progression to happen, the most by those that "want to open 3rd eye" before they are ready.

 

2) The second approach we use, which is in harmony with the first approach, is the sequential energy center activation, balancing & dimensional expansion method which addresses all energy centers equally, leading to this balance as well as awareness of dimensionality of the energy centers.

 

Wu Wei.

Referencing the thread in the Taoist subforum, there are many intellectual and philosophical definitions and I don't know what yours is. In our system we come to know, only through the continued practice, that these definitions are meaningless to us. This true connection, for us, is the very thing it appears you are arguing against. For us, "dancing in Wu Wei" only happens once the centers are opened and balanced and with the energy at proper vibration connecting with heaven. It is this very flow that allows us to be in wu wei. We come to know that Wu Wei is not some concept of relaxation and "not doing" but is a real interaction of walking inside harmonious flow.

 

I think a part of the "tension" you are experiencing has to do with past lives and emotional trauma and will work itself through with continued practice. We ALL have something which we bring up to work through when we practice energetics.

BUT always use common sense and if you feel a practice is not for you or if you experience overwhelming physical or emotional trauma then don't do it.

 

Best to you!

[三江源]

Mantak Chia said 'sink your brain into your ldt'.. this is very different than f'ocusing your attention' on your lower dt.

 

your focus of attention is a lot smaller than your brain and it can easily get tight and tense and neurotic.

 

Its more like 'reside there' than 'focus there'.

 

'rest there'.

 

sink suggesting to drop, and to relax

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i want to like your post again cat...

[suninmyeyes]

 

...

 

I currently have the opinion that keeping awareness on the lower dan tien is by no means natural and by no means wuwei, sure some people can dress it up as somehow being natural but for me it feels very forced and makes me tense and start thinking a lot.

 

If I let go of being aware of the lower dan tien, all the energy goes to my crown/above my head/third eye and I get very high easily. Instant enlightenment, If I start thinking of my lower dan tien, I become agitated and feel forced and start overthinking, this is annoying to me, as apparantely this means something is wrong with me when I am already there in a way.

...

...I would say maybe I feel like this because my lower dan tien is comparatively weaker than upper dan tien and also my heart chakra is probably more blocked too...

Are you used to a certain type of meditation / cultivation techniques ? One or few ?

 

If you feel unwell to focus on LDT than by all means do not do it . However , as cat pointed out sinking is a important -- what it really means is deep and torough relaxation .

Also , what it looks like to me is that you may be getting high --as you call it , but that is it . It has not yet gone in your blood and bones , so to speak . That is not instant enlightement , that may be at best a taste or expirience of enlightement . Encouriging to see what is available on the way , but in reality a house of cards .

I say it becouse something similar has happened to me as well in past .

IMO all issues need to be noticed and resolved/dissolved for real wellbeing , person becoming innocent and gentle (should not be mistaken with weak ) , not minding whatever life brings and prepared to do whatever is necessary to do .

Edited February 16, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[oildrops]

I think focusing on anything too intensely would cause an imbalance. Focusing on different centers for me can affect a change in perception. If the perception becomes too intense (like when I center on any one point for too long) then I will move my awareness somewhere else and gently until I am not focused on anything at all.

 

If there is too much energy in one part of my body and not in another, then I imagine my body is an empty chamber where energy naturally wants to disperse evenly. So my goal is to relax enough so the awareness is sinking and rising/ expanding and contracting at the same time, adding a little extra attention to areas I feel blockages, but accepting the blockage and then letting it know it can leave. I mean why hang around here blockage? There are so many other things out there to not block.

 

I have generally had a difficult time with energy lumping in my throat and upper chest, and then it seems to want to disperse out into my arms rather than through the solar plexus.

Edited February 16, 2013 by oildrops

[thetaoiseasy]

not applicable.

Edited September 23, 2013 by thetaoiseasy

[Dogen]

There's a lot of misunderstanding about this matter.

99% of people who talk about this, know nothing and experienced little.

 

Now, I tell you what nobody was able to tell me when I had your questions.

I practiced concentration in the heart center until absurd pain: it's not a safe spot.

 

The safe points are: third eye and navel, or arms and legs.

Stop.

I say this from my personal experience.

You may think that the sacrum could be safe. It's not. Don't practice concentration on the spine if you are serious.

 

When one starts to open chi channels in the spine for real, this will produce a dramatic increase of sexual energy: a tremendous lust. Nothing the ordinary men ever experienced.

This is because sexual energy is affected by gravity: the energy from the spine falls down naturally to the sexual organ.

 

And, if one is celibate (as he's supposed to be if he wants to have some real results and not delusions), semen will flow into the bladder and his pee will be foamy and whitish.

 

But, if you start your cultivation from the dantien area, this will supply the necessary "pressure" for the energy to raise the spine safely and not fall down.

 

Ok I see, thanks for the information

[Dogen]

There is a definite difference in mental "focusing" versus a gentle awareness. Suggest you don't apply so much effort of mental and only put gentle awareness on dan tian. The other energy centers can be dealt with in different ways.

 

Our method is twofold:

1) through keeping the gentle awareness on dan tian, the balance begins to occur by energy going upward (once energy field is established and reaches a certain density and a certain vibration) in a natural progressive manner, as the centers balance out. The reasons for this are many but one can look at it like this: bypassing a center and going to another can lead to an imbalance, such as mental imbalance. In other words, if a person has not dealt with emotional manifestations leading to energy imbalance how can they expect to be FULLY open to true heart? I have seen many problems caused by not fully allowing this natural progression to happen, the most by those that "want to open 3rd eye" before they are ready.

 

2) The second approach we use, which is in harmony with the first approach, is the sequential energy center activation, balancing & dimensional expansion method which addresses all energy centers equally, leading to this balance as well as awareness of dimensionality of the energy centers.

 

Wu Wei.

Referencing the thread in the Taoist subforum, there are many intellectual and philosophical definitions and I don't know what yours is. In our system we come to know, only through the continued practice, that these definitions are meaningless to us. This true connection, for us, is the very thing it appears you are arguing against. For us, "dancing in Wu Wei" only happens once the centers are opened and balanced and with the energy at proper vibration connecting with heaven. It is this very flow that allows us to be in wu wei. We come to know that Wu Wei is not some concept of relaxation and "not doing" but is a real interaction of walking inside harmonious flow.

 

I think a part of the "tension" you are experiencing has to do with past lives and emotional trauma and will work itself through with continued practice. We ALL have something which we bring up to work through when we practice energetics.

BUT always use common sense and if you feel a practice is not for you or if you experience overwhelming physical or emotional trauma then don't do it.

 

Best to you!

 

Hi Yamu

 

Yes perhaps I should make more of an effort to keep a gentle awareness there as oppose to "focus", seems so difficult and forced to do this, but yeh will give it a good go, I guess.

 

I am reading about the second chakra, and it says "he second Chakra is the relationships Chakra. It's about relationships to anything – people, objects, even money. The energy here is a combination of "relating," sensuality, sexuality and passion.

If the energy is blocked in this area, the language is usually, "I feel dead from the waist down." There is a heaviness to the area, and pressing on the lower belly might be painful. The person with blocked energy here might have issues around the lower GI, or with the lower back or with the sexual organs. Blockages in this area also lead to loss of interest in sex."

 

I do feel I have a lot of sexual blockages, and perhaps with relationships, and being grounded in the world and sometimes passion. So Perhaps this is why Im having difficulties here, If I rest in lower dan tien, this should help this stuff clear right?

 

I can see what you are saying about being balanced, I already feel that it is difficult to live in the world and Im 22, so if I was even more unbalanced this would be difficult.

 

Yes Im aware of that move, guess I will practice that more, the other methods for the other centers are in gift of the tao?

 

Well with wuwei I would like to say I have had some days where life seems like a spontaneous movement and im just following the energy and very relaxed and balanced, but with resting on the lower dan tien this doesnt happen so much because as Ive mentioned I am not so relaxed and feeling harmonious.

 

I see. I guess I dont really want to skip any "difficult neccessary stuff" and I have time to not have to work before I start university for Chinese Medicine, I have attempted to work whilst being in the lower dan tien and the results havent been so great (emotional trauma, feel tense etc)

 

So I guess I could just give it a shot.

[Dogen]

Mantak Chia said 'sink your brain into your ldt'.. this is very different than f'ocusing your attention' on your lower dt.

 

your focus of attention is a lot smaller than your brain and it can easily get tight and tense and neurotic.

 

Its more like 'reside there' than 'focus there'.

 

'rest there'.

 

sink suggesting to drop, and to relax

 

Hmm yes thanks I will "attempt" this, easier said than done though.

[Dogen]

Are you used to a certain type of meditation / cultivation techniques ? One or few ?

 

If you feel unwell to focus on LDT than by all means do not do it . However , as cat pointed out sinking is a important -- what it really means is deep and torough relaxation .

Also , what it looks like to me is that you may be getting high --as you call it , but that is it . It has not yet gone in your blood and bones , so to speak . That is not instant enlightement , that may be at best a taste or expirience of enlightement . Encouriging to see what is available on the way , but in reality a house of cards .

I say it becouse something similar has happened to me as well in past .

IMO all issues need to be noticed and resolved/dissolved for real wellbeing , person becoming innocent and gentle (should not be mistaken with weak ) , not minding whatever life brings and prepared to do whatever is necessary to do .

 

Hmm yes I agree.

[Dogen]

In my experience and training, there are 9 energetic fields from the perineum to the third eye. Everyone is born with an affinity towards a particular field, and each energetic field is characterized by its share of challenges and benefits. I call this affinity "center of gravity." If you choose an energetic field way below your natural center of gravity, you will feel suppressed and blocked, like a ceiling set two inches from your head. If you choose an energetic field above it, you will feel like you are floating upwards and can't keep your feet on the ground. In both cases, it's like taking a fish to fly, or a bird to swim. So an experienced teacher can take one look at you and tell you which field you are currently in and should work with. Above the 9 energetic fields there are 3 energetic fields that represent absolute freedom, but are hard for most people to enter in the first place. in my training, we only seek to go higher and higher in the energetic fields, never down. Without a teacher for guidance, I believe being natural without focus on dan-tiens is the best rule of thumb. But every school has their own training system and philosophy, of course. I just share mine.

 

 

Hmm this post interests me, and is what Ive been thinking too, it seems very contrary to the other stuff, and as you say there seems to be advantages and disadvantages to working with each center. I am unsure exactly how to comment on this. As I agree and am not sure if my lack of comfort is as you say because Im working below my centre or am blocked in that area, apologies, I just have no idea how to respond here.

[Dogen]

actually I feel pretty balanced and normal (having fun, not thinking too much about cultivation) if I just let go...and no attention on lower dan tiens..I guess I will have to experiment with the advice shared here, in order to make my own real opinion

[Sonhoffman]

I do feel I have a lot of sexual blockages, and perhaps with relationships, and being grounded in the world and sometimes passion. So Perhaps this is why Im having difficulties here, If I rest in lower dan tien, this should help this stuff clear right?

 

I can see what you are saying about being balanced, I already feel that it is difficult to live in the world and Im 22, so if I was even more unbalanced this would be difficult.

 

I'm sure many other over 30-year olds will agree that being 22, or twenty-anything, can be a most challenging age.

 

Don't expect energy work to be the key to better relationships. You will need more experience with relationships and to work with your own attitudes and mental knots in order to thrive in the world. A decent amount of daily Qigong will support that process but focusing on that too much could only make you feel more of an "outsider".

 

Also you could consider learning meditation/Qigong from a teacher. Then there would be no confusion about "where to concentrate during meditation".

 

 

edit: I realise this sounds like granpa talking and I probably wouldn't have liked this kind of advice myself when I was your age

Edited February 17, 2013 by Sonhoffman

[phore]

When looking over Taoist literature in history there are two periods of time when focusing on different points in the body are dominant.

In the Song Dynasty groups of Tao practitioners began focusing on points to build energy and astral projection.

This died out until the 20th century. In the writings of 20th century Tao practitioners there is a very large amount of literature concerning concentration on points.

It is the recent wave of Tao philosophy that has trickled into the west.

 

Many experienced Chinese practicioners in the last century have advised against focusing on a specific point . This can build excess energy in the point and cause chi sickness. Off balance points can either be excessively full or deficient.

 

In Tao literature you can find many references to "the center". In modern literature you find many authors equating this with the lower dantien.

If you read the literature of complete reality Tao, chan, and the alchemical classics you find a very different concept of center.

Liu iming a master of the northern complete reality school even lists excessive focus on points among his abbarant practices that miss the mark. When you read he literature of these schools, the center is about finding the harmonoious flow of energy and awareness within your life. It is a very subtle concept. In the writings of chuang tzu and chan masters it is necessary to let go of hang ups and remove the sticking points of your awareness to enter this centered state. From this perspective focusing on the any dantien excessively might be considered counterproductive.

 

Love light

[Dogen]

I will edit this later

Edited February 17, 2013 by Dogen

[Dogen]

When looking over Taoist literature in history there are two periods of time when focusing on different points in the body are dominant.

In the Song Dynasty groups of Tao practitioners began focusing on points to build energy and astral projection.

This died out until the 20th century. In the writings of 20th century Tao practitioners there is a very large amount of literature concerning concentration on points.

It is the recent wave of Tao philosophy that has trickled into the west.

 

Many experienced Chinese practicioners in the last century have advised against focusing on a specific point . This can build excess energy in the point and cause chi sickness. Off balance points can either be excessively full or deficient.

 

In Tao literature you can find many references to "the center". In modern literature you find many authors equating this with the lower dantien.

If you read the literature of complete reality Tao, chan, and the alchemical classics you find a very different concept of center.

Liu iming a master of the northern complete reality school even lists excessive focus on points among his abbarant practices that miss the mark. When you read he literature of these schools, the center is about finding the harmonoious flow of energy and awareness within your life. It is a very subtle concept. In the writings of chuang tzu and chan masters it is necessary to let go of hang ups and remove the sticking points of your awareness to enter this centered state. From this perspective focusing on the any dantien excessively might be considered counterproductive.

 

Love light

 

Ok thanks I see

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend