Advantages and Disadvantages of staying in the Lower Dan Tien

[Dogen]

Second Chakra and LDT are two different things. A LDT exist as a place and everyone has it like wild forest (now think to try to grow a field of grains there when there is still a forest). But one has to cultivate the LDT to actually have and cultivate energy (specific to the Qigong Form, specific to the Lineage and whatever they want to cultivate there).

 

And even if I say so there are different sort of Dantien one can build, even those without "lighting the fire" and let the Wild Forest Stay. A second chakra is inherit part of the energy body and has its own distinct frequency which can also be found in other human beings.

hmm I see

 

So if one finds one starts thinking a lot with attention/brain on ldt and finds it hard to be present instead of just letting go as phore has mentioned. This has nothing to do with relationships blockages?

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[phore]

In my experiences relationship issues can benefit from being in the center. As a person becomes centered they will become aware of their own hang ups/ sticking points. The person may recognize that they are expending energy repressing emotions, entertaining overly sexual thoughts or creating excessive fear and anxiety in their relationships with people. As the person becomes aware of his hang ups, through the process of continual awareness one can change them. The important part to remember is that you are originally uncontrived and free. Your problems are created by conditioning (from this life and past lives). When sort out the unnecessary habits that are wasting your energy your entire life will flow naturally.

From this perspective it is beneficial to work with chakras and points. Many relationship issues can resolved by freeing up the energies habitually caught up in the lower chakras. However focusing on certain points too much will likely create more hang ups than it will resolve.

For a simple direct approach I recommend allowing more unconditional love into ones life. Love yourself as you are. Love yourself enough to make a conscious effort to let go of old habits. Love others as they are. Love them enough to allow them to let go of their old habits. This generally helps relativity to flow more smoothly.

 

I say this at the risk of talking too much

Lovelight

[Dogen]

In my experiences relationship issues can benefit from being in the center. As a person becomes centered they will become aware of their own hang ups/ sticking points. The person may recognize that they are expending energy repressing emotions, entertaining overly sexual thoughts or creating excessive fear and anxiety in their relationships with people. As the person becomes aware of his hang ups, through the process of continual awareness one can change them. The important part to remember is that you are originally uncontrived and free. Your problems are created by conditioning (from this life and past lives). When sort out the unnecessary habits that are wasting your energy your entire life will flow naturally.

From this perspective it is beneficial to work with chakras and points. Many relationship issues can resolved by freeing up the energies habitually caught up in the lower chakras. However focusing on certain points too much will likely create more hang ups than it will resolve.

For a simple direct approach I recommend allowing more unconditional love into ones life. Love yourself as you are. Love yourself enough to make a conscious effort to let go of old habits. Love others as they are. Love them enough to allow them to let go of their old habits. This generally helps relativity to flow more smoothly.

 

I say this at the risk of talking too much

Lovelight

 

Thanks for the post Phore, your definition of being in the center means just nothingness, emptiness, no tequniques, no guiding of energy, if I take a 15 minute walk, just sit or do the dishes this is pretty easy for me.

 

Today I did the Sat Kriya Kundalini Posture which is meant to be the king exercise for sexual energy and the lower chakras, I started crying for the 3 9 minute rest periods, and my heart chakra was burning and even though I was lying down in shavasana my hands couldnt help it and started self healing.

 

I would rather get rid of my lower chakra issues with a quick and powerful exercise like this and spend the rest of my time in peace and doing what is natural. Than spend all my time doing a forceful method that makes me grumpy/overthink.

 

I am actually much more balanced when i dont spend my time in the lower dan tien.

[phore]

Even emptiness can be a sticking point.

Neither empty nor full, just so.

Lovelight

[skydog]

Yeh form is void, and void is form, thinking is ok too

 

sometimes.

[skydog]

oh yeh I posted this, just felt like being anoynymous with a different name, so I wouldnt be judged but I dont care anymore and so I could get real answers that wernt biased by judgements on posts I have made in the past

Edited February 17, 2013 by sinansencer

[RiverSnake]

My Neigong practice has an emphasis on putting ones awareness on the LDT. However, when i practice it does not seem that Chi flow is limited to that area....i feel chi flow throughout my body from top too bottom saturating me completely. But that's just my experience.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited February 17, 2013 by OldGreen

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[skydog]

My Neigong practice has an emphasis on putting ones awareness on the LDT. However, when i practice it does not seem that Chi flow is limited to that area....i feel chi flow throughout my body from top too bottom saturating me completely. But that's just my experience.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

I get that deep peace in sleeping Qigong, but when I have to move and live in the world and think about other things I feel very awkward.

 

Btw I am Dogen

[Jetsun]

Most modern people are completely up in their head so meditating on the LTD embodies you more than many other meditations, from there you can just be more easily and detach from the thinking mind more easily.

[skydog]

I see what you mean but if I let go it goes to the third eye, this doesnt feel like being "in the head" in fact I feel quite drunk and stupid.. but being in the brain seems to be different. I would agree with you somewhat though

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[ॐDominicusॐ]

There comes a point, where Awareness become detached from the head area, and can travel up down the central, and various, nadi's, eventually even being able to leave the body as well.

 

This is what is meant to drop the brain into ldt. All of awareness,a s a Unit, actually drops into it. For some it comes easy, for others, it requires time, effort. Perhaps there are loosening of awareness practices.

 

Just my 2cents. I know nothing and have no views, so maybe not to take what I wrote above as anything. or maybe see for yourself. Who knows!

[dawei]

I recall older text stating to always have your mind at the LDT. One advantage is the focus can help to develop the LDT while keeping the mind empty. I believe this also puts the body in a tendency towards 'openness'. But I do think that not everyone can simply jump directly into this full-time as their body/energy may not be ready for it. So one has to be able to listen to their body's response to doing it.

 

I have an opinion that chinese do this more naturally as it seems to me [by observation] that their LDT overheat fairly easy.

 

 

There comes a point, where Awareness become detached from the head area, and can travel up down the central, and various, nadi's, eventually even being able to leave the body as well.

 

This is what is meant to drop the brain into ldt. All of awareness,a s a Unit, actually drops into it. For some it comes easy, for others, it requires time, effort. Perhaps there are loosening of awareness practices.

 

I think the key is to realize that it is already (and always) in the LDT, just that some are not aware of it. So I don't see getting the brain into the LDT as a goal but rather the goal is to become aware that it is already there.

 

From a visualization point of view, one can get a picture of their brain like an elevator and going to the 'bottom floor'. When I do some meditation like this, as it lowers it disappears or dissolves so that I don't hold the picture too long. I ultimately empty myself of the very idea of one thing moving to another place. And one has to also let go of the idea of empty and open. There should be no thought or distinction in the end.

 

I think of this as similar to how one has has a developed awareness which is not aware of their awareness. This may be similar to Wei Wu Wei.

[skydog]

Edited February 18, 2013 by sinansencer

[Green Tiger]

I am familiar with methods that ask one to stay centered in the Lower Dan Tien.

 

The theory behind this is that one powers up the whole body by accessing the specific energy of the Lower Dan Tien. It is also considered to be the physical energy center and to be one that grounds people.

 

However the theory is that it will open other "chakras" naturally. Such as the crown/third eye, connecting one to "home"

 

I currently have the opinion that keeping awareness on the lower dan tien is by no means natural and by no means wuwei, sure some people can dress it up as somehow being natural but for me it feels very forced and makes me tense and start thinking a lot.

 

If I let go of being aware of the lower dan tien, all the energy goes to my crown/above my head/third eye and I get very high easily. Instant enlightenment, If I start thinking of my lower dan tien, I become agitated and feel forced and start overthinking, this is annoying to me, as apparantely this means something is wrong with me when I am already there in a way.

 

However often I get too high and need to be grounded so things like being aware of the lower dan tien would help. Also sometimes my physical/sexual energy is out of whack.

 

No matter how much people try to convince me trying to be in the lower dan tien however phrased just seems like trying and effort taking me out of wuwei.

 

I see some advantages and some disadvantages.

 

I am interested in hearing some views/advice on this that are unbiased and undogmatic.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I'm not sure what, if any, significance this has but I've been reading a very interesting book called Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics. The guy who wrote it seems to have some knowledge but also says some very off-the-wall things.

 

In the section where he discusses the dan tien he tells an anecdote about a master who was asked about the dan tien. The master supposedly said, "The dan tien is full of shit." Which is, quite literally, true.

[Mark Foote]

Mantak Chia said 'sink your brain into your ldt'.. this is very different than f'ocusing your attention' on your lower dt.

 

your focus of attention is a lot smaller than your brain and it can easily get tight and tense and neurotic.

 

Its more like 'reside there' than 'focus there'.

 

'rest there'.

 

sink suggesting to drop, and to relax

 

Cat, well said!

 

The heart-mind in modern nomenclature might be the sense of equalibrioception, informed by proprioception and the sense of gravity; an awareness of location in three-dimensional space informed by the ability to feel throughout the body, no part left out, as necessary in the movement of inhalation and exhalation.

 

Trick is, the mind disconnects from fixed location and volitive activity in between waking and sleeping, so to experience the mind at the tan-tien is possible in a hypnogogic state (but not otherwise). Everyone practices letting go and falling asleep, fewer practice letting go and waking up.

 

Here is Gautama the Buddha's description of the feeling of the meditative state; together with the instruction "before as behind, behind as before" and the correlations between the ability to feel and an openness between specific vertebrae (here's a chart), I find this instruction very useful for the relationship between proprioception and sharpening the sense of equalibrioception at the present location that it describes:

 

 

“…as a skilled bath-attendant or (bath-attendant) apprentice, having sprinkled bath-powder into a bronze vessel, might knead it while repeatedly sprinkling it with water until the ball of lather had taken up moisture, was drenched with moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out but without any oozing. Even so… does (a person) saturate, permeate, suffuse this very body with the rapture and joy that are born of aloofness; there is no part of (the) whole body that is not suffused with the rapture and joy born of aloofness. While (such a person) is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute, those memories and aspirations that are worldly are got rid of; by getting rid of them, the mind is inwardly settled, calmed, focused, concentrated.”

 

(MN III 92-93, Pali Text Society pg 132-134)

 

 

I like a relaxed extension, as here- notice the relaxation is outward, regardless of inhalation or exhalation:

 

 

“(The practitioner) should relax. The relaxation should be overall, that is, throughout the entire body. And it should be thorough, that is, without the least strain anywhere. The aim is to throw every bone and muscle of the entire body wide open without hindrance or obstruction anywhere. When (one) has done this, (one) will be in a position to talk about ch’i. To start with, (one) should let (the) ch’i sink right down to the “tan t’ien”. To do this (one) should first relax the chest, for the ch’i can only sink freely when the chest is relaxed. Gradually the ch’i will be felt to accumulate.”

(Cheng Man-ch’ing, T’ai-chi Ch’uan, North Atlantic Books, 1981, pg 7, copyright Juliana T. Cheng- parantheticals paraphrase original)

 

I am writing something about these relationships, here's a part of that "work in progress" for a little more perspective:

 

In juggling, the juggler realizes the momentum and weight of each object as a contribution to the juggler’s own sense of physical location, in order to relax the activity of throwing and catching; in practicing zazan, the sitter experiences the orientation and weight of any body part that crosses the mind as a contribution to the sense of physical location, and the pitch, yaw, and roll inherent in the experience of location informs the stretch and activity necessary to the relaxed movement of breath.

It is as simple as the kind of "dropping mind and body" that goes on in falling asleep, and I come back to that. Can you drop mind and body and still sit up, or still stand up?- if not, time for bed, most likely!

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

Thanks, rainbowvein.

 

Out on my evening constitutional, I realized I said "the relaxation is outward, regardless of inhalation or exhalation", but I didn't give the quote I was referring to; this is also from Cheng Man-Ching:

 

“In the first phase the sinews are relaxed from the shoulder to the wrist. …Finally we are able to relax the sinews all the way to the fingertips.

The second phase, from the groin to the heel, proceeds in the same manner. …One must not use strength, but completely relax from the groin to the knees to the heels.

…The third phase is from the wei-lu point (base of the tailbone) to the crown of the head… Thus we speak of softening the waist, so that it can bend in any direction, as if there were no bones at all.”

(“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, by Cheng Man-Ch’ing, translated by Douglas Wile, pgs 53-54)

He doesn't mention relaxing the chest here, and yet that in particular brings the movement of breath into the practice, and that is how the snow ball gathers weight as it rolls and collects from everywhere.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mark Foote

[Spotless]

.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Spotless

[GreytoWhite]

Btw I am Dogen

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/22424-one-person-one-account-rule/

[skydog]

Edited February 19, 2013 by sinansencer

[LCH]

A very interesting discussion...

 

The general question I ask myself is what is the ultimate desire?

 

Lately, I have recognized the importance of remembering my motivations for spiritual practice.

 

There is an inherent undercurrent of "going somewhere" with the practice. I am definitely not saying personal practice is pointless. I am saying that as the "practice" progresses, perhaps the "idea" of "going somewhere" is forgotten along the way.

 

Destination requires a beginning and an end, and self-actualization is seemingly not just that.

 

Based on personal experience, when I have sought experiences on particular "levels", I aligned myself with a more heavily "mental" thought pattern, and thus created a finite desire out of infinite possibilities. Eventually, I had enough finite experiences such that I sought to simply experience the infinite aspect of things.

 

Thus, is the process of "unlearning"...

 

The times I have achieved this have been when I wasn't thinking about it, since "infinity" is a concept that the mind simply cannot grasp.

 

In consciously embracing the paradox, the tangible and intangible are both perceivable. One becomes both the wave and the particle.

 

LIVING with that perception is the challenge presented upon birth. :-)

[4bsolute]

I am familiar with methods that ask one to stay centered in the Lower Dan Tien.

 

The theory behind this is that one powers up the whole body by accessing the specific energy of the Lower Dan Tien. It is also considered to be the physical energy center and to be one that grounds people.

 

However the theory is that it will open other "chakras" naturally. Such as the crown/third eye, connecting one to "home"

 

I currently have the opinion that keeping awareness on the lower dan tien is by no means natural and by no means wuwei, sure some people can dress it up as somehow being natural but for me it feels very forced and makes me tense and start thinking a lot.

 

If I let go of being aware of the lower dan tien, all the energy goes to my crown/above my head/third eye and I get very high easily. Instant enlightenment, If I start thinking of my lower dan tien, I become agitated and feel forced and start overthinking, this is annoying to me, as apparantely this means something is wrong with me when I am already there in a way.

 

However often I get too high and need to be grounded so things like being aware of the lower dan tien would help. Also sometimes my physical/sexual energy is out of whack.

 

No matter how much people try to convince me trying to be in the lower dan tien however phrased just seems like trying and effort taking me out of wuwei.

 

I see some advantages and some disadvantages.

 

I am interested in hearing some views/advice on this that are unbiased and undogmatic.

 

Thanks.

 

Beautiful, thank you for putting this up. I feel very similar. I can not stay for long in the LDT.

 

There is the information that the vibration of the earth itself has shifted, shifts and continue to shift from the LDT as it's main point to the MDT, the heart area. Whatever I do, everything feels pleasant when I act from this place instead of the LDT.

 

Do we truly speak about an old and a new paradigm?

 

In this forum I have heard many individuals speaking of "such methods never change, they are universal" but that simply can not be true. Everything is changing in the universe, improving and becoming better and better.

 

Can we stop at this point and reflect on the fact that most of the Qigong and TaiChi teachers were heavily involved into War? When I just hear Dr.Yang talking of the Yang style of TaiChi: How important it is to have a sense of enemy.. then I can only say "okay good old man, you have done your job here but now it is time to go and most importantly to let go. There is no war to be fought here in this world other than in yourself. And as we all know that leads to no good end."

 

War / enemy are the #1 illusions. There is nothing more detrimental and down-ward, life-leeching than acting from such a place. Just imagine what kind of energies you draw into your system.

 

Really? The whole Universe has endless energies that have a possitive and life-affirming aspect, why pick those that are so closely related to all the mess that was craeted here on this planet? It is obvious, because these individuals never have stepped one tiny bit into any 'other' reality outside of this. Playing around with concepts and ideas of what will be - totally ignoring what is outside of their own mental chess game.

 

"You must have a sense of enemy, you must defend yourself." From what must I defend myself??? There is nothing to defend myself from when I know I have a clean slate. I must defend myself from 'something' when I do know exactly that something karmic that I have initially created MYSELF will fly back right into my faces in the near future. Can you see this? Self-defense from one Self. How funny xD

 

When you look at it precisely: All wars that were going on on this planet are and always will be inner wars, indivuals fight. This is such a great illusion.

 

Of course such methods are obsolete now, they are getting thrown out of the matrix we live in. For they have caused way too much damage on this planet over such a long time. The planet is cleaning itself off of these energies and it is either follow or get wiped off of it. Simple. And again this is nothing bad or wrong - but as we have seen it many times before: Simply listen to the messages and if you are unable to then all the crying starts and all the misunderstanding and all the misery. No. Signs are there. If you continue to neglect it, they hurt. And continue to do so until you are crushed by the set laws of this Universe.

 

I can only see it as detrimental to continue to act from this place of the LDT as main-energy center, rather accepting and taking on the advice in going one octave higher to the MDT as main focus. The LDT will still exist, but not as main-center anymore.

Edited March 26, 2014 by 4bsolute

[4bsolute]

I have read a few different people say that the lower Dan Tien is the only physical place in the human body you can focus on without it causing problems, if you focus on any of your organs or brain it can cause serious problems.

 

Bullshit. Same as people saying marathons are lethal. They are not, like with EVERYTHING stuff is detrimental when you approach it with the WRONG MIND SET. That is the key here and with everything.

 

What happens when I want to clean out my system and I am agitated and continue to do so? Simple Qigong practices #1 advice to relax yourself? If I continue in this agitated state I will draw in energy and form this energy in an agitated way and ultimately bring agitation in all parts of my body. Which I have personally done and thankfully rapidly understood.

 

Same goes for all parts of the body: You can approach all parts in a calm and understanding fashion and you will read all signs clearly. And then be able to get going, retreat or simple observe.

 

There is a huge thing to understand with this three ways: For example .. my favorite example .. Dr.Yang teaches that we should not focus on the heart because it can create overheating. But what kind of focus does he mean? Those he mean a "yang-like focus" ? No pun intended. Or does he mean a ying-like focus? Or does he mean simple observing and not creating any further, since Yang and Ying are both creational aspects?

 

If we stay in a point of observation, pure observation - not even the miniscule and fine part of our body will get hurt by this act. BUT if we attempt to approach, especially organs, with two of these creational aspects - Yang and Ying, THEN we can create great damage. We either put too much energy in or drain too much out.

 

And is this really our job? How can I perform such actions?? Am I a master-creator? Have I studied my body for millenia and can precisely say what organ needs what amount of charge?

 

We are tempering here with something we should not have even tempred in the first place. And not at all from a personal perspective. Because then you look like M.Chia and Dr.Yang and other fellow "elder" individuals who are bloated up and look far from healthy .. totally different from what they actually teach. It might be that they have approached in a right way, but got drifted off of a set observative path.

 

I for sure know for myself that I will solely take on the role of the observer and not from a creator. Not from this point. There is so-much to ruin if you approach all of this from a personal, individual point.

 

Please remember: There is no room for opinions. God does not throw dices with what is possible and what is not possible. Our system is in perfect harmony if we let our far greater intelligence handle it. Please for the love of your own health do not approach ANY Qi work from your human mind à la "I want something". Either you feel a calling or you want to come back later.

 

My life-experience has tought me this.

Edited March 26, 2014 by 4bsolute