Shiv Tandav

[dwai]

Indeed -- it's always better business to sell sensationalized stories and make documentaries that tugs at the heartstrings.

Here is the Wall Street Journal chronicling the state of Caste-based "privileges" in India today...

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119889387595256961.html

 

 

 

CHENNAI, India -- Brahmins, as Hinduism's priestly and scholarly caste, have traditionally occupied a place of privilege in India.

Brahmins have been advisers to Maharajas, Mughals and military rulers. Under British rule, they served as administrators, a position they kept after Indian independence in 1947.

But in today's India, high-caste privileges are dwindling, and with the government giving extensive preferences to the lower-caste majority, many Brahmins are feeling left out of the economy's rapid expansion.

R. Parameswaran has suffered that reversal of fortune. The 29-year-old starts every day with a prayer to the Hindu god Shiva, marking his forehead with red and white powder to let the world know he is a Brahmin. In his home village, his caste's mark brought him respect, but since he moved to Chennai, a sprawling high-tech city in the southern state of Tamil Nadu, in the late 1990s, he has found his status a liability.

In Tamil Nadu, nearly 70% of government jobs and public-college slots are reserved for people from lower castes and other historically disadvantaged groups. Although he says he graduated near the top of his high-school class and had strong test scores, Mr. Parameswaran couldn't get into any of the state engineering colleges. His family had to borrow from friends to send him to a second-rate private college.

He now teaches English at a small vocational school. On a salary of $100 a month, Mr. Parameswaran can't afford an apartment, so he sleeps in the classroom at night. "I am suffering," says the intense young man, using the exaggerated enunciation of an English teacher. "Unfortunately, I was born as a Brahmin."

Although the role of Brahmins has never been synonymous with accumulating wealth, many are affluent enough to educate their children in the better private schools. On average, members of the caste, who make up about 5% of India's population of 1.1 billion, are better educated and better paid than the rest of Indian people.

The term Brahmin has come to be used globally to describe those at the top of the heap with an attitude to match, as in Boston Brahmins. Yet close to half of Brahmin households earn less than $100 a month, according to the Center for a Study of Developing Societies, a New Delhi think tank. For these Brahmins, the array of state-mandated preferences for other groups present a high hurdle.

The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. "If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first" was an old slogan.

A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called "other backward castes." Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups.

The ugliest Brahmin bashing in India ended years ago, but Mr. Parameswaran says that in college in the late 1990s, he still faced ridicule as a Brahmin. He says one student tried to break his sacred thread, a simple circle of twine Brahmins wear under their clothes.

After college, he had an internship in a state-owned chemical company, but says he was told he wouldn't be hired, as there were openings only for lower-caste applicants. He says he took exams to join national railways, state banks and other government agencies, such as the immigration department, but found most posts closed to all Brahmins except the most brilliant.

From his makeshift home where he sleeps with a blanket on a desk most nights, Mr. Parameswaran still applies for government jobs. He pulls out his latest application form and shows a visitor where he always gets stuck: the three squares where he has to write the abbreviation indicating his caste. "I want government work," he says, shaking the application, "but they have no jobs for Brahmins."

Mr. Parameswaran has tried to adapt to the lessening of caste distinctions taking place in many parts of India today, especially in cities. The changes are less in villages such as the one where he grew up some 200 miles away. There, his grandfather, who is 101 years old, still won't wear Western clothes and won't eat outside of his home for fear of mixing with lower castes.

Mr. Parameswaran's father has a job with the state telephone company and is more liberal. He dresses in shirts and pants, doesn't mind eating at restaurants and doesn't expect lower-caste neighbors to take off their sandals in his presence.

Mr. Parameswaran has had good friends from lower castes all his life, many of whom have used their communities to grab good government jobs, he says. He won't eat meat but has no qualms sharing a meal with people of any caste or creed. His 22-year-old sister, R. Dharmambal, is even more liberal, he says. "She will take non-vegetarian food," he exclaims, using the common Indian term for eating meat.

Mr. Parameswaran often visits the sister in the Brahmin enclave of Mylapore. On a recent day there, dozens of shirtless priests in the traditional Brahmin uniform of a white dhoti and partially shaved head were standing around at a Hindu-scriptures school, hoping for work. For as little as 100 rupees, about $2.50, they offered to perform complicated rituals and blessings required when any Hindu has a baby, a wedding or a new home.

"My sons can't support me, so I have to survive by performing Hindu rituals," says K. Narayana, an 81-year-old scholar. "If we had been from another community, we would have had better opportunities."

Nearby stands the Kapaleeshwara Temple, with towering gates of colorful carvings from Hindu mythology. It is one of the most important places for worship for followers of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. The temple used to be surrounded by rows of simple single-story homes, each with its own courtyard and well so the Brahmin families wouldn't have to share water with other castes. Most houses have been replaced by concrete apartment blocks and small stores.

At the temple's back gate, Brahmins beg for spare change or look for odd jobs as cooks or even bearers of bodies to funeral pyres, normally a lower-caste pursuit.

"I see so many Brahmins begging" in Mylapore, Mr. Parameswaran says. "It's very difficult to see. It makes me totally upset."

—Tariq Engineer contributed to this article.

Write to Eric Bellman at [email protected]

Corrections & Amplifications:

The percentage of Brahmin households in India that earned less than $100 a month was about 50% in 2007 and 65% in 2004, according to the Center for the Study of Developing Societies. This article fails to note that the study mentioned in the article was from 2007, while the statistics in the accompanying chart were from 2004.

 

Caste based discriminations are perpetrated within the so-called "lower castes" more than a so-called "upper caste" individuals.

 

In order to understand the socio-political and socio-economic conditions in India, one has to understand the difference between the two words "Varna" (or Hue) and Jati (Tribe). Most of the ills ascribed to Caste (ie Upper-caste vs Lower-caste and so on) is actually a result of Tribal (Jati) identities. And these have nothing to do with the original Varna-system (based on profession).

 

The biggest problem in India today is the lack of a system that promotes merit and growth based on one's own skills and intellectual proficiency. A model that is so successful in the US (especially) - people call it capitalism. Once a system like that is put in place (which was the original purpose of BR Ambedkar's Affirmative Action program when the Indian Constitution was written -- ie to be phased out in a span of 12-15 years - effectively by 1965). It got effectively hijacked by politicians who legislated amendment after amendment to the Indian constitution until almost 70% of all privileges in India goes to the "backward" castes (in education, government jobs, etc). There was also a push to implement this in the private sector, which would effectively destroy the very fabric of Indian enterprise (which succeeds in spite of the bufoons in the Government and bureaucracy).

 

 

State GEN OBC SC ST OTH / NA AP 26% 49% 18% 7% 0% Arunachal 25% 5% 6% 62% 2% Assam 50% 22% 13% 10% 5% Bihar 22% 59% 19% 1% 0% Chattisgarh 11% 45% 14% 30% 0% Delhi 67% 14% 17% 1% 1% Goa 70% 17% 5% 5% 3% Gujarat 35% 39% 15% 11% 0% HP 61% 14% 20% 5% 0% Haryana 52% 23% 25% 0% 0% J&K 68% 10% 13% 9% 0% Jharkhand 16% 45% 11% 28% 0% Karnataka 28% 44% 15% 6% 7% Kerala 56% 31% 11% 2% 0% MP 21% 40% 18% 21% 0% Maharashtra 47% 26% 16% 11% 0% Manipur 55% 12% 7% 26% 0% Meghalaya 9% 3% 7% 81% 0% Mizoram 3% 1% 1% 95% 0% Nagaland 8% 14% 5% 73% 0% Orissa 30% 27% 20% 23% 0% Punjab 58% 10% 32% 0% 0% Rajastan 22% 45% 19% 14% 0% Sikkim 14% 41% 9% 36% 0% TN 2% 75% 22% 1% 0% Tripura 39% 21% 23% 17% 0% Uttarakhand 62% 15% 21% 3% 0% UP 24% 50% 25% 1% 0% WB 34% 24% 26% 16%

0%

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_caste

 

 

Economic status

The 1998–1999 National Sample Survey^{[citation needed]} calculated the economic status of forward communities separately for rural/urban areas in various income brackets. It shows

• Only 6.4% of forward castes in rural areas appear in upper income bracket with per capita monthly income stands at above Rs 925 per month.
• 30% of rural population is made up of forward castes.
• More than 65% of forward castes per capita income stands below Rs 525 per month.

For urban areas:

• Only 5.6% of forward castes appear in the upper-income bracket with per capita income at or above Rs. 1925 per month (around US $40).
• More than 25% of forward castes per capita income stands below Rs. 500 per month (around $10).

[edit]Educational status

• More than 30% of forward castes above 15 years of age are illiterate.
• Only 8% of forward castes are graduates.
• Around 85% of forward castes above 15 years of age have done equal to or below secondary education (10 Years of education)

Edited February 23, 2013 by dwai

[RongzomFan]

Edited February 23, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

dwai, what was the point of the wall st journal article? According to the chart, brahmins do the best, and dalits do the worst.

 

And according to the correction to the end of the article, brahmins are doing better than ever.

[3bob]

Dwai,

I did not know such reverse discrimanation was so deeply rooted! Thanks for posting the article.

 

I see a true "caste system" as something that is of natural law, alas and like most anything else it to can become corrupted through various permutations and more or less become opposite to its original or natural place and purpose. (exceedingly so among mankind)

[RongzomFan]

Dwai,

I did not know such reverse discrimanation was so deeply rooted!

 

 

Its not. Its like white people here complaining of affirmative action in college admissions.

[dwai]

Dwai,

I did not know such reverse discrimanation was so deeply rooted! Thanks for posting the article.

 

I see a true "caste system" as something that is of natural law, alas and like most anything else it to can become corrupted through various permutations and more or less become opposite to its original or natural place and purpose. (exceedingly so among mankind)

Bob,

 

Discrimination is a systemic thing. It is at an institutional level. I haven't seen the discrimination of one caste towards another in my everyday experiences in India. Even if I have, they have been one-offs.

 

If you look at the political make-up in India, you will find that majority of political powers are controlled by those of the "backward" castes. To those who claim that the so-called "Forward" castes are instigators and perpetrators of discrimination, then my question is -

 

How is it that despite the political powers that be being from these "backward castes", and the rampant "socialist and egalitarian" agendas/manifestos of these elected representatives of the majority in India -- and have been in power for more than half of independent India's lifespan ( 1947 - now), has this not be resolved?

 

The answer is very simple -- there are political fruits to be reaped, by creating a false sense of discord and identity chasms. The politicians then continue to stay in power (not just with the caste-divide, but with communal divisions, even the mythical Aryan-Dravidian divisions rampant in some parts of Souther India).

 

These topics become louder every time during elections (at various levels). No one resolves these "issues" and I would venture to say that most of these issues are really non-issues. They are fabricated or blown out of proportion, to fan sentiments among the general population and garner votes for one group or another. And you know who falls for this the most? The impoverished lots.

 

Aren't the statistics telling? On an average close to 70% of all privileges are "reserved" for the backward castes. But rampant corruption at the bureaucratic and governmental levels ensure that the very elected representatives of these backward castes end up sucking their lifeblood.

 

The only progressive party to emerge in India (since independence) was branded a "Hindu Right Wing Chauvinistic" one -- and when they did get control of the government for 9-odd years in the decade of 1990-2000, India made the most progress.

 

 

It is a long topic of discussion and a lot of background information needs to be revealed and processed for someone to even begin to understand it.

 

In any case, TTB is not a political forum and I will not post any more of my observations on this matter any further.

[RongzomFan]

Right wing India is just as ridiculous as right wing America. Just substitute Jesus for Rama.

 

 

.Jonathan Walters remarks, "The impact of the 2003 discovery of Buddhist ruins underlying both Hindu and Muslim layers at Ayodhya remains to be seen."

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[dwai]

I read that B.R. Ambedkar believed that many ancestors of the Dalits were once Buddhists, who were persecuted and relegated to that status when the Brahmins regained power. Bhagwan Das also suggests that they were never "Hindus." What political interests are you specifically referring to?

 

 

Indeed, yet being that I'm an outsider there's no need for me to defend any of the political interests of these groups within Indian society: Since that doesn't form my cultural/familial or socio-economic identity. As an outsider this also includes the revisionist history of the 'Hindu' nationalists.

 

 

Absolutely. Just like how Indic studies are currently in the stranglehold of dubious scholars of Marxist persuasions within india and of morons who can't even read or write the native languages in the west and must be freed from their toxicity.

 

[RongzomFan]

I read that B.R. Ambedkar believed that many ancestors of the Dalits were once Buddhists

 

 

All the Indian royalty were Buddhist too.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=RvuDlhpvvHwC&pg=PA12&dq=Buddhist+Vishnu+before+the+eighth+century,+the+Buddha+was+accorded&hl=en&sa=X&ei=41IpUeT_B7G80QHSkoEY&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Buddhist%20Vishnu%20before%20the%20eighth%20century%2C%20the%20Buddha%20was%20accorded&f=false

 

 

The scholar is someone Rajiv Malhotra likes. So its fact.

 

http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&catid=22:dialog-of-civilizations&Itemid=26

Edited February 24, 2013 by alwayson

[dwai]

All the Indian royalty were Buddhist too.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=RvuDlhpvvHwC&pg=PA12&dq=Buddhist+Vishnu+before+the+eighth+century,+the+Buddha+was+accorded&hl=en&sa=X&ei=41IpUeT_B7G80QHSkoEY&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Buddhist%20Vishnu%20before%20the%20eighth%20century%2C%20the%20Buddha%20was%20accorded&f=false

 

 

The scholar is someone Rajiv Malhotra likes. So its fact.

 

http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&catid=22:dialog-of-civilizations&Itemid=26

You two are always on the buddhist agenda aren't you? Hilarious!

 

moreover, if you showed an iota of sincerity and open-mindedness that Rajiv Malhotra does (I HAVE interacted with him in person many times), you would far better serve your buddhist crusade.

 

Next time you have a buddhist agenda to forward, take it up in the Buddhabum sub forum. I am not going to engage in these topics on this forum with you any more.

[RongzomFan]

Buddhism and Hinduism aren't 2 separate Dharmas.

 

Indians started worshiping individualized devas, just as Christians started worshiping individualized saints.

[RongzomFan]

moreover, if you showed an iota of sincerity and open-mindedness that Rajiv Malhotra does

 

 

I cited Ronald Inden whom Rajiv Malhotra LOVES. Did you miss that part?

 

"However, in the case of a specifically Indic deconstruction of Eurocentrism, some of the finest academic challenge is often being delivered by Westerners, such has Ronald Inden and Nicholas Dirks."

 

"The historian, Ronald Inden explains the root cause of this dis-ease...."

 

"Ronald Inden explains how postcolonial Indian scholars have fallen into this trap...."

 

"Inden explains the colonial origins of the presuppositions of India that are now commonly accepted by Indian scholars. His very important book, from which the following passages are excerpted, should be required reading for every student of India, in order to understand the origins of today's neocolonialism"

Edited February 24, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[dwai]

You still haven't commented on or cited anything to counter Dwijendra Narayan Jha's "Looking For A Hindu Identity."

 

While this might be "new and exciting" to you, I've had the misfortune of encountering your ilk since the past decade and half...

 

It's not entirely that I'm not interested in debating you, it's more that I don't enjoy debates and arguments/counter-arguments any longer.

 

I have over the past 7-8 years compiled a vast list of material related to this and many other topics on my website http://www.medhajournal.com (by various authors of high intellectual and academic pedigree). Feel free to peruse the site at your leisure...

[RongzomFan]

 

I cited Ronald Inden whom Rajiv Malhotra LOVES. Did you miss that part?

 

"However, in the case of a specifically Indic deconstruction of Eurocentrism, some of the finest academic challenge is often being delivered by Westerners, such has Ronald Inden and Nicholas Dirks."

 

"The historian, Ronald Inden explains the root cause of this dis-ease...."

 

"Ronald Inden explains how postcolonial Indian scholars have fallen into this trap...."

 

"Inden explains the colonial origins of the presuppositions of India that are now commonly accepted by Indian scholars. His very important book, from which the following passages are excerpted, should be required reading for every student of India, in order to understand the origins of today's neocolonialism"

 

bump for a response

Edited February 24, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack