Taoist methods for turning shen into jing

[liminal_luke]

A question for Taomeow and other taoist alchemists:

 

Taomeow: I've read in several places your take on taoist alchemy--that it is a process of turning shen to chi, and chi to jing and not the other way around. That makes sense to me so my natural next question is how. What schools follow this progression and how can a person tell if a given practice is going in this direction?

 

I've mostly followed two different paths, healing tao (a la Michael Winn) and Kunlun/Yi gong, and while I feel great benefit in both approaches I'm not sure whether or not either of them does what you are talking about. The healing tao approach is explicitly alchemical, there are different levels of kan and li etc. Thing is I suspect they are going from jing to shen rather than the other way around. As one progresses from one level of kan and li to the next the process takes place at progressively higher levels within the body. So you start in the lower dan tien, move to the solar plexus, heart, upper dan tien etc.

 

Also, is it your view that kunlun ignites an alchemical process that goes from shen to jing? It seems profoundly opening and centering to me but I'm not sure if it's meant to be alchemical.

 

Thanks in advance for anybody whose practiced these or similar methods and wants to shine light on these issues!

[Cheshire Cat]

The Master said:

 

"If you want the theory, lust is empty and emptiness is lust"

 

This shows how the Shen can be converted into jing.

[joeblast]

shen to jing, focus of awareness applied to perfected mechanics and fundamentals. shen+qi. not a ton of coherence though. the coherence *really* only happens once the generative force is filled. (and further coherence happens when vitality restoration is complete, and so forth.)

[Sanzon]

This makes great sense to me. Much attention is paid to sublimating forces & ascending energies as far as I am aware of in the circles I have moved in before investigating TTB, and being a kundalini survivor, this notion of reverse direction pathways is very appealing. I find this soothing and grounding.

 

I have another connection to make. In grounding higher energies, especially from reading thedaoiseasy's posts, I really get the notion about being real, & living the Tao through virtues, not just through cultivation. Could the idea off turning shen to jing be the same as grounding ones sexual energy through incorporating spiritual aspects into ones sexuality?

[joeblast]

no manifesting sexuality is using, manifesting the core-energy. let go of the attachment to sexuality. that's a natural byproduct of good cultivation, not a focus of it. sublimation is used for a reason, look at that physical mechanism. solid to gas, skipping the liquid stage. letting go of the sexuality and not furthering, manifesting it drains at a deep level. imagine a sequence of water reservoirs that feed into each other progressively by height (just to make it tricky, fill one to a height then on to the next, a filter at each stage if you want to be more applicably creative,) as one is filled it spills to the next which gets filled, then you have a deepest one that has the highest point as its input. so your inputs all input at the stage where it has to feed through all the reservoirs to reach the deeper one, but when you drain it, it drains from that deepest one. that is an analogy for the sexual energy.

 

there is a parasympathetic nervous system loop that connects the to mechanism in the testes that accelerates the sperm, it is that level of physical, and the reservoirs are a representation of refinement - so lustful thought has a neurological basis-reaction produced.

 

so, shen to jing indeed - which direction you going with it? dont manifest it if you are to preserve the generative force.

Edited February 20, 2013 by joeblast

[Sanzon]

Nice analogy on that aspect joeblast.

[Birch]

"shen to jing indeed - which direction you going with it?"

 

JB, would you say that in this case 'jing to Shen' is also a drain on the generative force? For some reason, I had this idea that Shen (the non-individual one) was the 'ultimate' generative force and so you could reverse and 'bring down' Shen from (and this is the thing, 'where'?)

[liminal_luke]

shen to jing, focus of awareness applied to perfected mechanics and fundamentals. shen+qi. not a ton of coherence though. the coherence *really* only happens once the generative force is filled. (and further coherence happens when vitality restoration is complete, and so forth.)

 

JB,

 

For me reading your posts is like looking at an abstract painting at a museum---you intuitively sense that it's brilliant, but what does it mean? Maybe I'm just not at a point experientially yet where this stuff quite makes sense. Are you saying that by doing something like focusing awareness on the ltd (how I take it a person might fill the generative force and restore vitality) the stage is set for shen to jing alchemy?

[joeblast]

"shen to jing indeed - which direction you going with it?"

 

JB, would you say that in this case 'jing to Shen' is also a drain on the generative force? For some reason, I had this idea that Shen (the non-individual one) was the 'ultimate' generative force and so you could reverse and 'bring down' Shen from (and this is the thing, 'where'?)

Heh, that's sorta assuming a closed system in a way - that paradigm doesnt account for where does the energy potential for arising and utilization of willpower come from? shen-spirit, focus of awareness. the only way shen would be draining generative force is misuse. from where, nowhere cant locate it just like 'the mysterious pass.' while utilizing the force of awareness "does use qi" - also consider that not all "usages of qi" are equal.

 

JB,

 

For me reading your posts is like looking at an abstract painting at a museum---you intuitively sense that it's brilliant, but what does it mean? Maybe I'm just not at a point experientially yet where this stuff quite makes sense. Are you saying that by doing something like focusing awareness on the ltd (how I take it a person might fill the generative force and restore vitality) the stage is set for shen to jing alchemy?

it just means that the generative force and associated liquids are among the body's most refined substances - the most refined in order to further the species - so it takes a comparatively large amount of resources to fuel the generative force, and it is comparatively very easy to drain, harder to fill...takes exponentially more time to fill than to drain. that's why I tried to depict water having to fill various reservoirs before filling the deepest layer.

 

setting the stage - yes, j, s...dont forget the (big f'n Q, they spell it nyQuil for a reason, no qi for you now go to sleep ) to be serious though, the focused coherent breath mechanics and utter & complete stillness promote the qi, conserve the jing, settle the shen. that does indeed set the stage - but like my ascending reservoir analogy, until the generative force is full then it will simply keep filling, making the JQS paradigm less efficient - they all transform into one another, so there will be a blend of the 3, (that is not as efficient as filling first, then resource-focus can be more coherently applied.) but once full, no need to keep filling so long as (whatever form of) conservation is sufficient, at that point there's a whole lot of additional resource that doesnt need to be put to use toward what it normally does, hence "all this extra energy." it is similar to longevity breathing, once you reach certain levels of coherence and efficiency and the breaths are very long ongoing session to session, all of a sudden you are brimming with energy because there's all this other action that used to take place and is no longer, so there is an additional remainder of energy - that goes to core processes when not manifested. so all of this work we're doing is "getting out of the way" so that the core processes can be enhanced and made extremely efficient, once that process is (relatively) fully complete that's where you have the preponderance of resources "going straight to shen."

[liminal_luke]

Thanks JB, that makes more sense to me now.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I have no idea exactly to what Taomeow was referring. Different lineages and different ideas and all that. So I look forward to seeing her response. This is from a pm conversation a while ago;

 

"On the Daoist view. The "three treasures" (sanbao) of man are jing-qi-shen. But there is xian-tian (pre-Heaven) sanbao (ie: jing-qi-shen), and there is hou-tian (post-Heaven) sanbao (three-treasures). Sometimes the Chinese characters are the same but sometimes they are different. This is also, in my opinion, why people get into arguments over what they are, qi in particular. For example xian-tian qi is a deep part of who you are and is the energy you were given at birth. Hou-tian qi is breath. Most qigong and medicine has focused upon hou-tian jing-qi-shen, because that is what it wants to work with, the tangible.

There is also 'shun' and 'ni' in understanding the movement of nature and Dao. Shun means 'with the natural order', while ni means 'to rebel, reverse, or against the natural order'. This is a fundamental concept underlying all Daoist approaches.

"Practicing jing transforms to qi, qi nurtures shen,shen returns to wu (emptiness). This is breathing with the natural order. Breathing in reverse of the natural order, is non-breathing, regulating the breath, breathing deeply, fetal breathing. [breathing in this] manner postpones aging and can reverse old age and return youth." Bo Yang (Old Daoist)

"Dao gives birth to One, One gives birth to Two, Two give birth to Three, Three give birth to all things. This is the natural order that creates humans, creates things. Jing changes to Qi, Qi changes to Shen, Shen gathers inside the form, this is the natural order. Shen changing into Qi, Qi changing into Jing, Jing then being able to change into form, this is the reverse of the natural order. In reversing the natural order it is possible to become an immortal or a Buddha."

 

These quotes are from my Classical Daoist chinese medical lineage. Still wrapping my head around it in all fairness. Most only know or talk about the one direction of this process

Yet we should bear in mind, that in Daoism, for every truth, the opposite is also true. Context is forever important. Yin and yang. There is always two, and yet they are not two but one thing."

 

The rabbit hole is far deeper than most realise I feel...

 

Best,

 

[Edit: Having read what appears to have been Taomeow's post elsewhere that inspired this thread. All I can say is I agree whole-heartedly with her comments. Not only do her comments make sense in light of the theory I have been taught in one classical lineage, it also makes sense in light of the pragmatic teachings of my primary lineage.]

Edited February 21, 2013 by snowmonki

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Basically, stillness and absence of desire. If you are young and your vitality is plentiful, it will automatically transform when you cease desires, keeping the true yang of awareness within the yin of emptiness. Chi will eventually be felt rising as it has transformed from Jing. Continuing in this way, with a much broader knowledge, understanding, and instruction than I'm giving here, the chi will inevitably transform to Shen.

 

Imo, this is a reverse method, since you first clear the mind and cultivate the shen in this way, from which the jing-chi transformation occurs. So this can build the "golden elixer" without focusing first on jing.

 

But if you're trying to build jing for physical benefit, just focus on jing building methods as that would be the most effective. I think there is likely some jing effect of the "shen first" method, but more just for spiritual uses -- nothing explosive like you will find with jing building practices.

[Shagrath]

"On the Daoist view. The "three treasures" of man are jing-qi-shen. But there is xian-tian (pre-Heaven) jing-qi-shen, and there is hou-tian (post-Heaven) jing-qi-shen. Sometimes the Chinese characters are the same but sometimes they are different. This is also, in my opinion, why people get into arguments over what they are, qi in particular. For example xian-tian qi is a deep part of who you are and is the energy you were given at birth. Hou-tian qi is breath. Most qigong and medicine has focused upon hou-tian jing-qi-shen, because that is what it wants to work with, the tangible.

 

WOW! Could you please compare also huo-tian and xian-tian jing and shen? What would they represent in both cases?

[寒月 Hanyue]

WOW! Could you please compare also huo-tian and xian-tian jing and shen? What would they represent in both cases?

 

"The 後天三寶 hou-tian sanbao (post-heaven three treasures) are jing, qi, and shen. The 先天三寶 xian-tian sanbao (pre-heaven three treasures) of one’s original nature are 元炁 yuanqi (original qi) [post-heaven ‘qi’ is air], 靈 ling (spirit), and 性 xing (one’s nature)." Wang Liangyi

 

Which gives us;

 

Xian-tian sanbao 先天三寶

• 炁 qi
• 靈 ling
• 性 xing

Hou-tian sanbao 後天三寶

• 精 jing
• 氣 qi
• 神shen

This is one Daoist lineages view. I'm sure there are others.

 

[edit:]

 

In fact here is an exmaple of another view;

 

Catherine Despeux also distinguishes between xiantian sanbo 先天三寶, and houtian sanbo 後天三

 

Xian-tian sanbao 先天三寶

• Yuanjing 元精 "Original Essence"
• Yuanqi 元氣 "Original Breath"
• yuanshen 元神 "Original Spirit"

(Despeux (2008:The Encyclopedia of Taoism ed. Fabrizio Pregadio)

 

So there are different ideas, concepts and terms that exist depending on tradition and lineage, surprise surprise. You could, but it is rather pointless to try to make them all fit as one homologous 'map', it is better to appreciate why the different views exist. But really, it only means anything if you are pragmatically involved in the tradition in the first place!!

 

Best,

 

P.S. My previous post included a section from an old private chat, and in all honesty I wrote it quickly and it implied something that wasn't quite accurate, my apologies. I have edited the post accordingly for those who find the thread in future.

 

Edited February 21, 2013 by snowmonki

[Taomeow]

A question for Taomeow and other taoist alchemists:

 

Taomeow: I've read in several places your take on taoist alchemy--that it is a process of turning shen to chi, and chi to jing and not the other way around. That makes sense to me so my natural next question is how. What schools follow this progression and how can a person tell if a given practice is going in this direction?

 

I've mostly followed two different paths, healing tao (a la Michael Winn) and Kunlun/Yi gong, and while I feel great benefit in both approaches I'm not sure whether or not either of them does what you are talking about. The healing tao approach is explicitly alchemical, there are different levels of kan and li etc. Thing is I suspect they are going from jing to shen rather than the other way around. As one progresses from one level of kan and li to the next the process takes place at progressively higher levels within the body. So you start in the lower dan tien, move to the solar plexus, heart, upper dan tien etc.

 

Also, is it your view that kunlun ignites an alchemical process that goes from shen to jing? It seems profoundly opening and centering to me but I'm not sure if it's meant to be alchemical.

 

Thanks in advance for anybody whose practiced these or similar methods and wants to shine light on these issues!

Whew, finally I get to this thread -- been busy away from computer -- thanks for trusting my take, LL.

 

1. What schools follow this progresson. That's a tough one for me to answer because the number of schools I'm familiar with is limited. It is my understanding that the process is twofold, and every school that "gets it" will start with the process I roughly (very roughly-- we're dealing with most complex concepts and phenomena here) described as "shen to qi to jing," and from there, at the next stage, proceed in the direction a particular school or an individual advanced practitioner has for its/his/her goal. Which, at the second stage, might mean the conversion of unified qi-jing to shen, or else something else entirely... Technically, converting everything to unified jing-qi is the stage of conservation, one can stay there or use what's been conserved, it's a choice from then on. Know those stories about immortals who find a nice tree in a quiet picturesque spot, lie down to get a nap, and sleep for a thousand years? because, well, it's perfect enough for the time being? Or the ones who live as Water immortals, water dragons of various denominations, even turtle or frog immortals? These guys/gals are in no hurry to convert jing into anything, they store it and don't use it. Apparently it's a satisfying way of being for some -- perhaps for a long time, a very long time... But there's ways to go from there, like I said...

 

One thing I seem to understand (unless I'm mistaken of course) pretty well is that there's schools that start out with the wrong premise due to an ideological (shen) defect built into them. (Shen is the "commander" of the whole alchemical process from the start, it "ignites" qi and jing. In my practice of lingbao bifa one has to gather and unify shen first... it becomes clearer from there.) The wrong premise some of the schools are based on (and they are, without exception, very far departed from taoist basics toward assorted other influences) is that since there's "higher" and "lower" phenomena and jing is "lower" and shen is "higher," one must immediately set the goal of getting from "lower realms" to "higher" ones -- mirroring in this approach the very flaw I mentioned, that of hierarchical ideology. So they rush into conserving and storing jing with a goal of transforming it to qi and to shen with assorted interesting methods (e.g. semen retention, a practice based largely on a popular misinterpretation of what jing is, which, without a clear understanding of what it really is, accomplishes some prostate and bladder trouble and an accumulation of "dead jing" and all the ensuing frustrations and disappointments.) They conserve what has not been unified and made ready for conservation, and then attempt to transform it the way a camel would try to push his way through the eye of the needle in order to learn to fly. The problem is,

 

OK, will have to finish later, the trumpets have sounded...

[Mo Tzu]

Shen-Jing-Chi, Spiritual-Mental-Physical, Upper-Middle-Lower, Circle-Triangle-Square.

 

The understanding of the chi to sheng or sheng chi for me is helped when I see the order of my directions. The spiritual mind knows best, this is then passed to the mind for taoist direction, the mind then tells the body what to do.

 

When my body functions to this order I make more chi, this can then transfer to more jing, and with more jing I want to be more spiritual (shen)

 

So I meditate to the Ultimate for my orders, allow my mind to absorb and direct, then the physical body acts them out.

 

Then good order is universal.

 

xxx

[宁]

Shen to Qi to Jing is using your mind and education to improve your life and build up your health. Ta-daa!

Chinese have tricky ways of talking about simple things, whenever it gets complicated it will lead you to the path of non-action, aka too confused to act either way. Best to avoid that,

 

Best,