Metaphorical Qi

[Greyharte]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread about it (maybe I just missed it).

Anyway,

In my studying, what little bit I've learned of qi/chi/prana/etc. is that it is the life force that runs throughout the universe (or something similar), kind of like the gas for the cosmos. It can be used and abused in multiple ways. Traditional Chinese Medicine (and I suppose Ayurveda too) focus on cleaning/clearing the Qi pathways to prevent/cure sickness. However, I've found little positive evidence backing up TCM.

 

In that light, here's the question:

Is Qi a real thing in the sense that it is wholely contained in itself and perhaps misunderstood, or is it more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi? Is it something else entirely?

 

At this point, I am more inclined to think of it as a useful metaphor, like the concept of an electron or gravity, but I'm interested in what other, more experienced Taoists/others have to say.

[Phi92]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread about it (maybe I just missed it).

 

Anyway,

 

In my studying, what little bit I've learned of qi/chi/prana/etc. is that it is the life force that runs throughout the universe (or something similar), kind of like the gas for the cosmos. It can be used and abused in multiple ways. Traditional Chinese Medicine (and I suppose Ayurveda too) focus on cleaning/clearing the Qi pathways to prevent/cure sickness. However, I've found little positive evidence backing up TCM.

 

In that light, here's the question:

 

Is Qi a real thing in the sense that it is wholely contained in itself and perhaps misunderstood, or is it more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi? Is it something else entirely?

 

At this point, I am more inclined to think of it as a useful metaphor, like the concept of an electron or gravity, but I'm interested in what other, more experienced Taoists/others have to say.

 

My experience with Qi/Psi/Energy/Prana/Elan Vital is that it is real, you can feel it during meditation and various other exercises.

 

I believe it's not scientifically measurable as it is not a material thing, but an underlying force giving us life, health and strength if we train it. Nevertheless, some scientific study shows that there truly is such an energy on a quantum level, while others say that there is not.

 

I believe it's less of a physical, measurable force like friction or pressure and more of a mystical force which you can experience subjectively and feel it. I'm not sure how much you can experience it above the subjective level, but perhaps you can

[Astral Monk]

Well I reckon it's a bit of both.

 

http://http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31918

 

 

A group of Korean researchers have rediscovered threadlike microscopic anatomical structures that correspond with the layout of traditional acupuncture meridians or channels. Acupuncture channels are no longer imaginary lines, but specific anatomical structures that, until now, have not been recognized by current theories of anatomy. These channels have been found inside of blood and lymphatic vessels and they also form networks that overlay internal organs.

 

The channels are called Bonghan channels after Kim Bonghan, a North Korean who published papers describing them in the 1960s, a decade before acupuncture was introduced to the American public.

...

Bonghan channels are also being compared to fiber-optic channels in the body. These channels may be able to carry an extremely high density of information far beyond the limited, one-way signals of the nervous system or the diffusive information carried by hormones in the blood stream. A 2004 paper describes how biophotons, produced by animal tissues, may be emitted by DNA molecules to produce a laser-like coherent light capable of carrying an enormous volume of information through the Bonghan channels. The idea that acupuncture channels conduct light has already been substantiated by Russian research published as early as 1991. They found that the light-conducting ability of the human body exists only along the meridians, and can enter and exit only along the acupuncture points.

 

Bear in mind that there is a 'type' of qi for just about everything. There is a big difference between pre-natal and post-natal qi, for instance. These are energies that can be accessed and manipulated within the body. The key thing being that if you can experience and observe a change or transformation, then something 'real' is going on.

 

Many types of qi refer to overlapping systems of processes. And observing these depends on your worldview. 'Organs' in TCM are not 'organs' of western medicine, although there is often overlap. So 'heart qi' is not, say, just about the quantity of blood moving out of the arteries.

 

If, as the above article suggests, we want to talk about the internal transmission of coherent light, then centers of qi in the body might be areas where light and information are compressed or gathered. In that case, the 'qi' of those areas refers to this type of movement of light.

 

Is there a ubiquitous 'qi' underlying it all? Is energy energy?

 

8)

[Greyharte]

All of that seems to make sense. I had wondered about the quantum mechanics part. I've also heard of biophotons, weak photons that are emitted by cells during different times. Though I'm not a science major, I'm deeply interested in all this kind of stuff. In case it's not obvious, I'm not very well versed in much of the Taoist teachings.

 

So here's another I just thought of. I've been rather tired today and especially after helping a classmate with some homework. Other times, I can feel exhilirated even after feeling that same kind of tiredness. Part of it may be restarting karate and judo after a 3 year break (last night).

 

Could this have something to do with a particular flavor of qi or am I just plain tired?

[Guest pix58]

Hi Greyharte... the closest that science has come to explaining Chi is the superstring theory, but even that has along way to go. There are many levels within Chi and what you are able to access depends upon the level you have attained.

 

It can also be felt and used in many ways from just the physical well-being to the limitless metaphysical side...nothing is impossible!

 

Note if you feel tired/drained when with a particular person, as if this is so they may be an energy vampire and be draining you energy for themselves though they may not be aware of it. If so then you must learn to protect your energy.

[henro]

Is Qi a real thing in the sense that it is wholely contained in itself and perhaps misunderstood, or is it more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi? Is it something else entirely?

 

At this point, I am more inclined to think of it as a useful metaphor, like the concept of an electron or gravity, but I'm interested in what other, more experienced Taoists/others have to say.

 

I think you got it right there. In Chinese language and culture there is a qi for everything. It can represent energy flow, vitatlity, breath, tides, wind, strength, virtue - the list is endless. The ancient Chinese doctors understood the flow of energy through the body but they couldn't measure ATP, calcium, or oxygenated blood anymore than they could measure tidal flow, electricity or gravity. But they knew it was there so Qi was a nice way of encompassing the flow of energy or breath in all systems....

 

But I'm convinced that someday we will measure other energy flows in the body that we just haven't figured out yet. . . Science hasn't explained everything yet!!!!

Edited March 11, 2013 by robmix

[Birch]

Qi to me, IME/IMO to me also involves the 'information' part of energy. It has communicative properties. Not all system sets do and they often operate in isolation IMO/IME.

 

---2 cts---

[henro]

In my studying, what little bit I've learned of qi/chi/prana/etc. is that it is the life force that runs throughout the universe (or something similar), kind of like the gas for the cosmos. It can be used and abused in multiple ways. Traditional Chinese Medicine (and I suppose Ayurveda too) focus on cleaning/clearing the Qi pathways to prevent/cure sickness. However, I've found little positive evidence backing up TCM.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=acupuncture

 

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1583578

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lorenzo-cohen-phd/acupuncture-cancer-patients_b_2593301.html

 

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/acupuncture/healthprofessional/page4

[taijistudent]

Yes, Qi is real. It is the basic substance of life/matter. Energy in its most ethereal form.

 

If you are tired, it can come from so many causes: stress, over use of your mind, excessive activity, inefficient breathing and storage of breadth, poor diet, poor assimilation of food, not enough sleep, etc. etc. etc. One must look at the total lifestyle and attempt to understand what is happening.

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

As protons and electrons circulate with the body's blood they create a constant, moving, negative/positive energy reaction (Qi). Though the use of intent this energy reaction can be increased or decreased, by adding from the outside hemisphere or expelling from the inner. It can also be directed to different parts of the body or even outside the body, also with the use of intent, to achieve the desired results. It is everywhere, and always available, but most noticeable when it's circulating or accumulating in our bodies. How's that sound?

[Protector]

Chi is the energy that powers the intention(Yi)

That's why there's so much of it

[ChiDragon]

Translation about the four types of Chi(氣)

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/23149-translation-about-the-four-types-of-chi%26%2327683%3B/

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

It's a real thing, just like radiowaves are a real thing.

[ChiDragon]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread about it (maybe I just missed it).

 

Anyway,

 

In my studying, what little bit I've learned of qi/chi/prana/etc. is that it is the life force that runs throughout the universe (or something similar), kind of like the gas for the cosmos. It can be used and abused in multiple ways.

 

1. There is a life force throughout the universe, kind of like the gas for the cosmos, may be think of as the air or oxygen.

 

Traditional Chinese Medicine (and I suppose Ayurveda too) focus on cleaning/clearing the Qi pathways to prevent/cure sickness. However, I've found little positive evidence backing up TCM.

 

2. The Qi, in TCM, is defined as "the function of the organs". Due to the TCM jargon, when it was said that the Qi was blocked, it actually means that the function(Qi) of a particular organ was disrupted. When it was said the Qi passage has been cleared, it really means the function of the organ had been restored to its original condition. BTW It took me years to figure it out and realize what was that all meant.

 

In that light, here's the question:

 

Is Qi a real thing in the sense that it is wholely contained in itself and perhaps misunderstood, or is it more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi? Is it something else entirely?

 

3. If we defined "Qi" as a form of gas like air or oxygen, then chi is wholely contained in itself. If "Qi" was defined as "energy", then it is not wholely contained in itself. It is more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi such as ATP(biochemical energy). The reason for Qi is not wholely contained is because Qi in terms of energy, ATP, which requires glucose and oxygen to be formed.

 

At this point, I am more inclined to think of it as a useful metaphor, like the concept of an electron or gravity, but I'm interested in what other, more experienced Taoists/others have to say.

 

I had the same doubts as you have, before, this is the best explanation that I can come up with to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks.

Edited March 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread about it (maybe I just missed it).

 

Anyway,

 

In my studying, what little bit I've learned of qi/chi/prana/etc. is that it is the life force that runs throughout the universe (or something similar), kind of like the gas for the cosmos. It can be used and abused in multiple ways.

 

1. There is a life force throughout the universe, kind of like the gas for the cosmos, may be think of as the air or oxygen.

 

Traditional Chinese Medicine (and I suppose Ayurveda too) focus on cleaning/clearing the Qi pathways to prevent/cure sickness. However, I've found little positive evidence backing up TCM.

 

2. The Qi, in TCM, is defined as "the function of the organs". Due to the TCM jargon, when it was said that the Qi was blocked, it actually means that the function(Qi) of a particular organ was disrupted. When it was said the Qi passage has been cleared, it really means the function of the organ had been restored to its original condition. BTW It took me years to figure it out and realize what was that all meant.

 

In that light, here's the question:

 

Is Qi a real thing in the sense that it is wholely contained in itself and perhaps misunderstood, or is it more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi? Is it something else entirely?

 

3. If we defined "Qi" as a form of gas like air or oxygen, then chi is wholely contained in itself. If "Qi" was defined as "energy", then it is not wholely contained in itself. It is more of a metaphor for the multiple body systems working together to make the results of Qi such as ATP(biochemical energy). The reason for Qi is not wholely contained is because Qi in terms of energy, ATP, which requires glucose and oxygen to be formed.

 

At this point, I am more inclined to think of it as a useful metaphor, like the concept of an electron or gravity, but I'm interested in what other, more experienced Taoists/others have to say.

 

I had the same doubts as you have, before, this is the best explanation that I can come up with to satisfy myself curiosity. Thanks.

 

Qi is energy (Ayurveda calls this prana). It is not function of organs, organs are a part of the meridian network through which qi flows.

 

There is nothing metaphorical about qi. Those who work with it know its "real ness". It is not biomechanical alignment, it is not some vague concept -- it is real and it can be moved with the mind intent.

 

When one becomes sensitive to qi flow all questions are dispelled.

 

[thelerner]

Personally I think of it as a metaphor, one that's not just useful but vital. I don't think you'll find a Qi'O'Meter or satisfactory scientific explanation but..you'll know it, when you experience it.(!) Intention/focused will/life energy. Within metaphors are maps, and maps lead to learning and power. Be careful about discarding things because they don't fit a certain paradigm.

[MERCELESS ONE]

chi is real an metaphorical. just like life is real and metaphorical. from direct personal experience with different levels of chi you have no idea how real it is! and elecrons are not metaphorical they are real but their movments are not trackable as we were taught. the electron moves so fas it literally creates a cloud. chi also has been misrepresented and mis taught. and gravity is not a metaphore either, its real, you have to remember just becaue it cant be explained easily doesent meant its not real. it just takes knowledge beyond what is currently taught in order to understand it.

[henro]

Qi is energy (Ayurveda calls this prana). It is not function of organs, organs are a part of the meridian network through which qi flows. There is nothing metaphorical about qi. Those who work with it know its "real ness". It is not biomechanical alignment, it is not some vague concept -- it is real and it can be moved with the mind intent. When one becomes sensitive to qi flow all questions are dispelled.

 

Meridian qi is only one type of qi... That is too narrow a definition. Just because it encompasses many aspects does not make it vague. And just because it can have biochemical aspects does not limit it's potential in other aspects of medicine or qigong.

Edited March 12, 2013 by robmix

[dwai]

 

Meridian qi is only one type of qi... That is too narrow a definition. Just because it encompasses many aspects does not make it vague. And just because it can have biochemical aspects does not limit it's potential in other aspects of medicine or qigong.

 

Meridian qi is the only qi that we know in our body.

[henro]

Meridian qi is the only qi that we know in our body.

 

Do you have any references that suggest that meridian qi is the only qi we know in our body?

 

I would refer you the Neijing Suwen for an alternate viewpoint, but probably one of the best definitions of qi comes from Ted Kaptchuk in The Web That Has No Weaver....

[taijistudent]

Do you have any references that suggest that meridian qi is the only qi we know in our body?

 

I would refer you the Neijing Suwen for an alternate viewpoint, but probably one of the best definitions of qi comes from Ted Kaptchuk in The Web That Has No Weaver....

I think the best way to envision Qi is to view it as the basic energy unit of all matter and life. Qi (i.e. energy) combines with Yin/Yang wave patterns (consider yin and yang the two opposite poles of a wave) to form moving waves, or the basic essence of everything. This process is described in the Dao De Jing as two (the wave) emerging from the one and the three (wave + energy) emerging from the two.

 

As consequence Qi energy permeates everything but in different forms. In China, the word is used in an enumerable number of ways as we might use energy in our own language. Specifically, in medicine, there are a variety of different concepts of Qi in order to explain the human physical, mental, and spiritual beings.

Edited March 12, 2013 by taijistudent

[dwai]

 

Do you have any references that suggest that meridian qi is the only qi we know in our body?

 

I would refer you the Neijing Suwen for an alternate viewpoint, but probably one of the best definitions of qi comes from Ted Kaptchuk in The Web That Has No Weaver....

 

There are terms that refer to heaven qi, earth qi etc. they are all just different vibrational frequencies and amplitudes...the qi in our meridians is the only qi that animates us.

 

Like qi prana in Indic/ayurvedic traditions is said to comprise of 5 winds (vAyus) - each responsible for various actions/organs. They are still the same pran but have different frequencies and roles...

[ChiDragon]

I like the title of the OP. So, all types of chi described by the ancient Taoists are metaphorical chi. It is because all of them are set in our minds with no substantial evidence. Thus we just took it as is. However, there is no reason why that we couldn't link it to modern science; at least to make some sense out of it.

[Adia]

I think you are over thinking the subject. See for yourself that it is real. Try the meditations and you will see for yourself. It doesn't matter that science doesn't have an explanation for it. Maybe it will have an answer for it in the future. Will it really change anything?

[ChiDragon]

It won't change anything but only we'll have a better understanding. That's all.

BTW I am not picking on its effect or it's real or not. I just wanted to justify why it works.