Difference between Qigong and Neigong?

[Starjumper]

Actually, some tai chi is about as close as many people are going to get to Nei Kung, and I feel the 'right' kind of tai chi is better than many chi kung systems, I mean sets.

[mizpulyn]

hi guys this is an intentional DOUBLE POST... please allow this post... as life happens there are 2 exactly same threads on TaoBums going on... so i took the right to post the same question to both as they already do exist concurently... please dont blame me these two exact threads exist... i just want my question read by as many people and get most opinions... thus the DOUBLE POST...

 

hi guys iam new to TaoBums and iam just looking around, gathering information and starting to paint a picture before i jump on the excercises...

 

iam trying to find a system to start and stick to... i dont want to be jumping from system to system later... i have relatively good health and iam more looking for a kind of general cultivation and life elixir to fuel my creativity and spirituality...

 

after reading this thread i feel iam more inclined to Nei Gong than Chi Gong - it just makes more sense to me and my kind of personality...

 

would you post some popular and powerfull Nei Gong systems ? Names or website links...

 

i did my homework and spent days reading through TaoBums just to gather names of specific systems so i have some solid reference to begin with... i currently have my short-list of Qi Gong systems that i can choose from (some of them may be Nei Gong just using the "marketing catch-all" term of Qi Gong, i dont know)

 

Terry Dunn - Flying Phoenix Qi Gong

Chunyi Lin - Spring Forest Qigong

Michael Lomax - Gift of the Tao

Yang Jwing-Ming - Embryonic Breathing (name of book rather than system)

 

also if you could clarify one citation that jump started my interest in Nei Gong, please dont kill the messanger iam just citing a website that may be confusing terms:

 

Nei Kung is fundamentally different than Chi Kung, in that Chi Kung only uses yang (masculine) energy. Nei Kung utilizes both yin and yang (feminine & masculine combined) thus making it infinitely more powerful. It is surprising how very few traditional subtle energy systems actually utilize yin (feminine) energy let a lone make a distinction between yang and yin, just calling the two different forms ambiguously “chi”, “prana”, “ki” or “energy”. If a system doesn’t make a distinction it almost always only utilizes the masculine yang energy.

 

source: http://www.gestaltre...ung-john-chang/

 

I dont mind the authors opinion what system is "more powerfull" but what caught my interest is the bit that only some systems (Nei Gong) distinguish between 2 types of Chi (yang and yin) - if this is true i definitelly want to be learning a path that utilizes complete spectrum of internal energy - it just makes so much more sense that there would be 2 opposing energies (yang and yin) flowing in your body... that claim just fitted right into my sense of how things work...

 

what do you think about that claim and if its true i would love to get names of the systems that utilize both yang and yin energy...

 

thanks and please no flame wars Chi Gong vs Nei Gong... iam just humbly asking for clarification of specific claim i read outside of TaoBums and what caught my attention, because it resonates with my world view (the existence of both yang and yin chi inside your body and the need to manage them as 2 individual chi energies)

 

cheers

[ChiDragon]

i did my homework and spent days reading through TaoBums just to gather names of specific systems so i have some solid reference to begin with... i currently have my short-list of Qi Gong systems that i can choose from (some of them may be Nei Gong just using the "marketing catch-all" term of Qi Gong, i dont know)

 

Terry Dunn - Flying Phoenix Qi Gong

Chunyi Lin - Spring Forest Qigong

Michael Lomax - Gift of the Tao

Yang Jwing-Ming - Embryonic Breathing (name of book rather than system)

 

You have the correct list of the Qi Gong systems. The last one is Qi Gong also. FYI Anything has to do with breathing is considered to be Qi Gong or Chi Kung. If you want to learn Neigong, then you start with learning Qi Gong first.

Edited March 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[宁]

Actually, some tai chi is about as close as many people are going to get to Nei Kung, and I feel the 'right' kind of tai chi is better than many chi kung systems, I mean sets.

 

I find myself agreeing with this, for some reason.

I experienced the sinking of the Qi (in the lower abdomen) via Taijiquan, something that didn't happen as effectively with any of my prior practices.

 

The taiji daolu can be as a frame, containing a whole system therein. It depends on the depth of the teaching that you receive.

[ChiDragon]

I would say it depends on the depth of practice rather than the teaching one receive. I would say that even the movements weren't precisely done, the effect of the health benefits is still unchanged.

[Starjumper]

i did my homework and spent days reading through TaoBums just to gather names of specific systems so i have some solid reference to begin with... i currently have my short-list of Qi Gong systems that i can choose from (some of them may be Nei Gong just using the "marketing catch-all" term of Qi Gong, i dont know)

 

Terry Dunn - Flying Phoenix Qi Gong

Chunyi Lin - Spring Forest Qigong

Michael Lomax - Gift of the Tao

Yang Jwing-Ming - Embryonic Breathing (name of book rather than system)

 

Possibly you missed my post two posts above yours, but the important thing for people who are looking for Nei Kung to consider is the thousands of techniques they contain.

 

Have you ever stopped to think how long it takes to learn a thousand techniques? Or ten thousand?

 

In the classics it states that the most powerful Taoist systems contain ten thousand techniques. 10,000! That's ten individual thousands.

 

So if you learn ten new techniques each week how long will it TAKE!

 

By golly I guess that adds up to a thousand weeks, doesn't it? How many years is that?

 

So ya, sure, you can learn Nei Kung from a weekend seminar, many hundreds of Tao Bums have done just that and can provide expert witness.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Starjumper

[mizpulyn]

well i didnt for a minute think i would become an expert in anything... i was just asking 2 simple questions to clarify something i read on internet and wanted to get more sourced opinions from TaoBums members who know the answer - nothing wrong with that i guess:

 

Question A is it true that there is a diffreence between Qi Gong and Nei Gong in that Nei Gong differentiate between Yin and Yang Chi whille most Qi Gong systems only teach about singular Chi (Yang perhaps) as is claimed in this text:

 

Nei Kung is fundamentally different than Chi Kung, in that Chi Kung only uses yang (masculine) energy. Nei Kung utilizes both yin and yang (feminine & masculine combined) thus making it infinitely more powerful. It is surprising how very few traditional subtle energy systems actually utilize yin (feminine) energy let a lone make a distinction between yang and yin, just calling the two different forms ambiguously “chi”, “prana”, “ki” or “energy”. If a system doesn’t make a distinction it almost always only utilizes the masculine yang energy.

 

QUOTE FROM http://www.gestaltreality.com/2012/02/07/mo-pai-nei-kung-john-chang/

 

 

Question B are there any public Nei Gong systems ?

 

Well so far there were about 10 replies here and on the other dupicate thread (same topic) and no one answered Question A and as of Question B i got reference to 1 book (http://www.amazon.com/Ling-Bao-Tong-Neng-Gong/dp/1470174545/) that was told to me contains Nei Gong excercises so i immediatelly ordered it to check it out...

 

Also i did my homework and searched myself around TaoBums for any mention of public Nei Gong systems and the closest i could get is this:

 

Wang Liping - Longmen Pai (Dragon Gate) system

http://www.amazon.com/Ling-Bao-Tong-Neng-Gong/dp/1470174545/

ordered this book and will see whats inside, i hope excercises... i hope nei gong... i will update my post when i get it...

 

Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson - Zheng Yi sect teachings

http://www.qigongmedicine.com/daoist-books/

lots of books on magic and alchemy from Zheng Yi sect - definitelly Nei Gong stuff... iam not sure if these books have any teaching system or they are just collected texts from unknown sources ment as a reference for advanced Nei Gong aspirants... but Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson also offers a DVD series "http://www.qigongmedicine.com/medical-qigong-dvds/" these DVDs also seem to be Nei Gong flavour from the descriptions - these DVDs work with all kinds of visualisations, qi projection and healing of patients both physical and soul and emotional... the first 2 DVDs seem like a nice "intro" to Nei Gong... anyone here got them ?

 

Max Christensen - Kunlun system

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/

http://www.amazon.com/KUNLUN%C2%AE-System-Alchemy-Leading-Within/dp/098522360X/

i bought this book - the only public material available from Kunlun system - and i will see whats inside, theory or practical excercises... Kunlun system might not be 100% Nei Gong and it has many supporters as well as sceptics on TaoBums, but it seems to me its also bit more mystical and esoteric than ussual Qi Gong systems so i will give it a try - there is no option to find out than read that book (iam outside USA) - ordered the book...

 

frankly i dont expect much from either Wang Liping's and Kunlun books... i expect there will be lots of theory and historical excursions into ancient china but not much excercise instructions let alone coherent system to teach from a book... i might try one of those Zheng Yi sect books published by Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson, that stuff is most probably Nei Gong, but i have a feeling these will be either too theoretical or too advanced for a beginner like me...

 

i know its almost impossible to learn something so complex and timeless as Nei Gong... but still if anyone would know any public Nei Gong system that has any sort of books, DVDs, materials for sale please post them here next to my 3 findings... there must be more than these 3 i found... common

Edited March 17, 2014 by mizpulyn

[ChiDragon]

 

well i didnt for a minute think i would become an expert in anything... i was just asking 2 simple questions to clarify something i read on internet and wanted to get more sourced opinions from TaoBums members who know the answer - nothing wrong with that i guess:

 

Question A is it true that there is a diffreence between Qi Gong and Nei Gong in that Nei Gong differentiate between Yin and Yang Chi whille most Qi Gong systems only teach about singular Chi (Yang perhaps) as is claimed in this text:

 

 

Nei Kung is fundamentally different than Chi Kung, in that Chi Kung only uses yang (masculine) energy. Nei Kung utilizes both yin and yang (feminine & masculine combined) thus making it infinitely more powerful. It is surprising how very few traditional subtle energy systems actually utilize yin (feminine) energy let a lone make a distinction between yang and yin, just calling the two different forms ambiguously “chi”, “prana”, “ki” or “energy”. If a system doesn’t make a distinction it almost always only utilizes the masculine yang energy.

 

FYI There was no such thing as masculine or feminine energy. Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing. This definition is very clean cut and there is no ambiguity about it. Neigong is an internal method that one practice to develop the physical strength which is beyond one's own capability. Another words, it is some special abilities that a practitioner may be acquired from the Neigong practice. For examples, while a practitioner is holding his breath and cannot be harmed even the sharp edge of the blade of a knife; somebody can break a stick on your back without hurting you; or someone punch you on the belly and you didn't feel a thing. In return, you can exert an internal force to repel his fist. This is what Neigong is all about.

 

Nei(內) means internal. Neigong(內功) means internal strength besides it means internal method or practice. When one ask "how is your Neigong?" which means "how is your internal strength?"

 

These definitions are very straight forward and as clean cut as they can be. If one can stay with them, then many confusions and ambiguities can be avoided.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Starjumper]

Question A is it true that there is a diffreence between Qi Gong and Nei Gong in that Nei Gong differentiate between Yin and Yang Chi whille most Qi Gong systems only teach about singular Chi (Yang perhaps) as is claimed in this text.

------

That doesn't sound right to me. Maybe it's used in some systems but mine didn't differentiate things that way, we only used the terms good (clear) energy or sick energy.

Maybe that applies but I don't think so. We also had some focus on gathering energy from the Earth which is yin and energy from Heaven, which is yang, but that definition doesn't apply to what you ask either.

So it might be that some systems play with that, but it is not really needed for progress in cultivation, no teacher in my experience, and they include masters and grandmasters, ever mentioned yin or yang energy in any lecturings that I was present at.

We also use a system that is different than the standard meridian system, so different things help with cultivation in different ways. So there's some evidence that things like meridian systems might actually be arbitrary and that we actually create them by either training or belief.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Concerning question B, Jerry Johnson certainly knows his stuff. I haven't read any of it but from the titles it looks like he leans more heavily on what I could call the magical/mental aspects rather than chi power and psychic power aspects that my system does.

 

And Wang Liping is for real. I give both of them an A+

 

Don't ask me about Max

Edited March 17, 2014 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

FYI There was no such thing as masculine or feminine energy. Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing. This definition is very clean cut and there is no ambiguity about it. Neigong is an internal method that one practice to develop the physical strength which is beyond one's own capability. Another words, it is some special abilities that a practitioner may be acquired from the Neigong practice.

 

For examples, while a practitioner is holding his breath and cannot be harmed even the sharp edge of the blade of a knife; somebody can break a stick on your back without hurting you; or someone punch you on the belly and you didn't feel a thing. In return, you can exert an internal force to repel his fist. This is what Neigong is all about.

 

That's all good, and the for example is good to but maybe a little misleading. For me, what Nei Kung is all about is feeling good. When the euphoric super healthy super strong chi energy buzzes in your body, now there's motivation to practice.

 

So you see, Nei Kung should only really appeal to hedonistic chi junkies. The rest is just frosting on the cake, and all that frosting isn't necessarily so sweet either.

[ChiDragon]

That's all good, and the for example is good to but maybe a little misleading. For me, what Nei Kung is all about is feeling good.

 

Please, I do respect your other opinions but don't start this about Nei Kung is just feeling good. You are really confusing the issue here with no merit.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Starjumper]

Earlier I mentioned tai chi as being more like nei kung and better than a lot of chi kung. Chi Dragon refined this by adding tai chi in depth.

 

I want to add that Bagua (Pa Kua, the so much cooler old fashioned way of spelling it) is even moreso like nei kung than tai chi.

 

If you combine Pa Kua systems, because some are really good chi kung and others are really good martial arts, and together they can make an awesome cultivation system, which again, will far surpass most chi kung sets that are out there in benefits ... if you learn it in depth.

[ChiDragon]

Tai Ji is the combination of Chi Kung and Neigong. At the beginning, by going through the basic Tai Ji movements, the breathing kicks in, first, to a point when "chi sink to the dantian". Then months after months, the body strength builds up gradually from the slow movements. The breathing part is considered as Chi Kung and the strength part is Neigong which also known as Jin(勁) in Tai Ji.


Please note, if you have been following my posts, all my definitions about Chi Kung and Neigong are very consistent throughout the site with no variation.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mizpulyn]

Starjumper wrote> "We also had some focus on gathering energy from the Earth which is yin and energy from Heaven, which is yang..."

 

well i think that sounds definitelly like working with 2 different energies to me...

 

i stumbled upon this YouTube video of John Chang

 

 

(i believe the stuff he does is called Mo Pai and looks to me like Nei Gong - spirits, visualisations, yin and yang energy, stillness or little movement, etc.)

 

MO PAI is definitelly NOT PUBLIC and the only book i know that was published about it "The Magus of Java Book" is more a history and philosophy than excercises (although i didnt read it, this is just from reviews)...

 

iam not interested in legend of John Chang as his teaching isnt public, nor do i care if he can light a fire with bare hands, so please no flame wars about John Chang or similar "magicians" i refer this video as an example of someone talking specifically about using 2 different energies together... Yin and Yang

 

1:08 - Yin, Yang, positive and negative, my positive from here (Navel chakra) and my negative from here (perineum)….
4:45 - First you learn to distinguish between Yin and Yang chi in your body……. And its the proportionate mixture between Yin and Yang that accounts for different effects…. Mastering Yin chi is the key to the spirit world….
7:05 - Negative is his perineum and his Positive is his Navel chakra

 

source youtube: see video link above

 

so there are definitelly some people who distinguish between Yin and Yang Chi and to be frank it makes so much more sense to me even as a beginner... if there is duality in everything on earth why wouldnt there be duality in chi ?

Edited March 17, 2014 by mizpulyn

[dawei]

iam not interested in legend of John Chang as his teaching isnt public, nor do i care if he can light a fire with bare hands, so please no flame wars about John Chang or similar "magicians"

 

This is the second time I have seen you mention "no flame wars"... which is already throwing kindling on a fire you started...

 

How about this: As a new member with no history of members here and topics here... let's just avoid the John Chang and Mo Pai references till you have something specific to share in terms of experience.

 

Your repeated reference has the attention of a mod or two, and I don't think a newbie usually intends that.. unless they do.

[BaguaKicksAss]

and an ip overlap...

[Brian]

Curious...

[mizpulyn]

hmm i dont know what last 3 posts were about... i just noticed by reading through TaoBums that there are some themes which ussually start a lenghty off topic discussion when mentioned... so thats explained... i want to avoid any offtopic fight of some of the more "opinionated" TaoBums users... the fact that i dont have history is because iam new to eastern teachings and iam just trying to figure out the basic terminology and directions before i choose one to put my time and effort into... given there is many schools, systems i guess my approach is right...

 

my real interest is still answering the 2 questions... Question A (yin and yang chi in nei gong vs singular chi elsewhere) and Question B (public nei gong systems)

 

i used the video of the guy only as an example of some guy who talks about "yin and yang chi" quite a lot... if referencing anyones sources when asking questions is not good than i dont understand netiquette...

 

i think the best that could happen is someone coming here and listing some proper Nei Gong systems (public or not) so i can go search google and see if they talk about yin and yang chi as separate energies - well that would either prove the claim or not... i got lots of perosnal opinions so far but no frame of reference (with 1 or 2 exceptions) - they are all just other peoples claims they believe are correct... sadly without much reference or factual backing from any source...

 

so i guess i will keep waiting until someday, someone reads this thread who actually did any Nei Gong and would be ready to share some backed-up or referenced answers to Question A and B...

 

i guess there is nothing bad about wanting to know truth if i read through most of the replies they are either off topic, ambiguous, personal beliefs and opinions without any source of validation or they react on some unimportant detail in the post and completely ignore the 2 questions...

 

cheers everyone and iam sorry if i stepped on someones toe

Edited March 18, 2014 by mizpulyn

[ChiDragon]

mizpulyn....
Welcome to the club.

You wanted the truth for questions A and B. This is the closet that you can get to because there aren't any truth in the quotes that you are puzzling about in Chi Kung and Neigong. If you want some backed-up or referenced answer, then you have to wait until these people printed their books and make a fortune to mislead you all the way. In the mean time, use your own wisdom and sort things out yourself. And I wish you good luck.


PS....
If there are answers to all that, you probably would have found them by now.

Edited March 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[spatha]

Which comes first between Chi Kung(氣功) and Neigong(內功)......???

 

 

氣功 means "[inner] Qi achievement"

內功 means "Inner [Qi] achievement"

 

Which comes first? I dont know.

[ChiDragon]

Chi Kung(氣功) is to learn how to breathe properly for the body to function most effectively. When one can learn to breathe until the breath has "sunken to the low dan tian(氣沈丹田)" or abdominal breathing, it was considered to be that one has been reached the goal of the ultimate method of breathing. Once the goal of Chi Kung was accomplished, one can start the Neigong(內功) practice. Neigong is to increase the internal body strength. Hence, Chi Kung is the prerequisite for Neigong. One cannot go to the Neigong stage without the know how of Chi Kung.

[ChiDragon]

趺坐調氣
Obviously, this monk is at the Dazuo position, is he meditating or regulating his breathing....???

[ChiDragon]

This the 30 Days Meditation Challenge.

.....But its also nice to share the meditative experience with someone else. You feel less like this is a feat you must do alone, and find comfort in the sounds of inhalation and exhalation of your meditation partner. In a strange way, it keeps you grounded. - See more at: http://www.holisticvanity.ca/meditation-challenge-tip-1-bring-a-buddy/#sthash.dVG9dRtY.dpuf

It meditation, most of the time, breathing was merely mentioned in a light tone but not strongly emphasized as in Dazuo: regulating the breathing.

Edited March 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In the comparison of the result between Dazou and Meditation in Pos t#73 and Post #74, respectively, which method would be more effective for energy development....??? If one can refine down to the nuance of the two, then one will have no problem distinguishing which comes first, Chi Kung or Neigong....!!! Btw I will disclose the nuance between Chi Kung and Neigong in the "Zazen, Dazuo(打坐), and Meditation" thread in the General Discussion section.

Edited March 20, 2014 by ChiDragon