Stigweard

The Tao of Jin (power) in Tai Chi Chuan

By Stigweard, in Daoist Discussion

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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

I have realized that IMA (internal martial arts) folks are reifying Jin (power) in the same way as many Taoist folks reify Tao. By this I mean that they are trying make it a concrete "thing".

You hear terms like ... emitting Jin ... or shooting Jin ... sending out Jin.

It is the same error when people think that Tao is a "thing" that can be the "object" of worship. It is also synonymous that, just as Tao is not a "thing", Jin is also not a "thing", and just as Tao is more of a "way" or pattern of things, Jin is more of a "power".

Also synonymous is that folks try and make both Tao and Jin something "special", meaning that it is something above or beyond mundane reality.

 

Read more... http://www.tai-chi-wizard.com/the-tao-of-jin-in-tai-chi-chuan.html

 

:)

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flowing hands   

flowing hands
Posted

'jin' is a part of Dao, just as one evolves ones understanding and practice of Dao, one also does the same for developing 'jin'. Jin is an effect one gets from practice, but like understanding of the Dao, one has to do the right things for it to be achieved.

 

One could practice say tai chi for a lifetime, but never develop jin, just as one can meditate for a lifetime but never really understand Dao. Jin has specific exercises to develop it, Dao has hundreds if not thousands of lifetimes to develop it!!!

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Wells   

Wells
Posted (edited)

I have realized that IMA (internal martial arts) folks are reifying Jin (power) in the same way as many Taoist folks reify Tao. By this I mean that they are trying make it a concrete "thing".

 

You hear terms like ... emitting Jin ... or shooting Jin ... sending out Jin.

 

It is the same error when people think that Tao is a "thing" that can be the "object" of worship. It is also synonymous that, just as Tao is not a "thing", Jin is also not a "thing", and just as Tao is more of a "way" or pattern of things, Jin is more of a "power".

 

Also synonymous is that folks try and make both Tao and Jin something "special", meaning that it is something above or beyond mundane reality.

 

Read more... http://www.tai-chi-wizard.com/the-tao-of-jin-in-tai-chi-chuan.html

 

:)

 

The point of all of this is that it demonstrates that Jin isn't a single, special power/energy/force. Just like Gong, 功, means a power/skill that is brought to fruition through hard work, Jin, is a term that designates a power/skill brought about through refining brute force, Li, into levels of greater sophistication.

 

I absolutely disagree!

The guys who only have skill don't have the real Jing/Jin.

 

Please read below some quotes I collected of people who tested Gary J. Clyman's Jing (Including thetaobums member LittlePie), which suggest that Jing is much more than only an ability or a skill! It's a special power: In fact, it's a high-frequenzy vibration!

I however agree with you that being able to transfer this special power for martial or healing application is a skill.

 

Quotes of interest:

 

 

 

23rd September 2009, 08:25 PM

KungPow

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Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Roseville,CA

Posts: 2

Misinformed

 

There seems to be some confusion over Gary's statement and that's understandable. Gary isnt saying that the Chinese character for "chi" is what's in the characters of tai chi. He's saying that the actual manifestation of chi, the way he describes it, is what is involved in tai chi, or supposed to be anyway.

 

I cant really speak for him. I have an opinion though, if it matters lol.

 

It's my understanding that when people actually project what they call "chi" that it's a more refined chi substance, jing. You can feel your own chi flow as I can feel my own chi flow but the vibration of my/your chi is on too high a level for me/you to project to me/you, unless it's been condensed through some sort of qigong, meditation, etc. That's Gary's say on it, I may have misquoted him or just completely fabricated that from poor memory but if I recall correctly that's how he sees it.

 

Personally I agree completely with Clyman. I also think that most qigong masters say what he says but maybe in a different way. Another way to view it (poor example warning) is like a big river or lake or whatever. The water source is great and all but if you build a dam then you can really use the source. Very poor example choice.

 

 

 

5th August 2011, 03:04 PM

Neikung36

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mwolf

I guess when I see statements like that, it makes me question whether individuals like this truly know what they are talking about. These types of people then go on writing books on subjects as fascinating as Qigong and really don't understand what it is, teaching nonsense to students to make a quick buck.

 

I was able to get through about a third of the article as I do find it interesting reading. On a similar note, there was also a thread on this forum with Sifu Doucherty talking about Qi as if it was irrelevant.

 

Just makes me a bit sad to see people make comments of this sort as it truly discredits their expertise.

Of course he knows what hes talking about.His master was waysun liao,
you can go and see him, punch him and kick him in the torso to test his iron shirt and ask him to discharge his jing into you.Have fun with your insides bouncing around and collapsing to the floor once he does it.
He also has an interesting story to tell you about sifu wong kiew kit if you ask him.Im not going to say anything or go into details, but lets just say Mr clyman is not impressed with his level of expertise.

 

5th August 2011, 05:59 PM

Neikung36

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Ok let me clear some things up , ive read all of wong kiew kits books and i got bad deviations from his practices back in 2002. They lasted for years but i kept on practicing and practicing because i thought that the bad feelings were the chi clearing things out, not only that but i am aware that there are many others suffering deviations also. I did not insult him i stated that clyman did , but in reality he deserves my insults. He doesnt explain things clearly enough in his books and people have suffered.On to Gary now .I went to see Gary Clyman in person, he is everything he says he is and much more.
I weigh 84 kilos(not fat) and punched him and his other top guys as hard as i could, ive trained with pro boxers and i can deliver a punch that will knock any man down.I delivered powerfull(liver and spleen) shots and they didnt tense up.When i punched Gary it felt like my wrist bent and could have snapped(he told me he could have snapped it if he wanted to) Not only that but his fa jing demonstrations were very impressive as was his emotional liposuction, he sent me flying with a light slap and i felt my insides bouncing around.Not only that but he said that he hadnt really hit me yet, I refused to test the next level off power.I have his entire system and he is superior to wong kiew kit by a 1000 lifetimes.
That is my opinion and if it gets me kicked off then boo hoo hoo.I dont really care! Gary Clyman knows exactly what he is talking about and his stuff works way better than wongs.There are no insults just facts.GET OVER IT

 

 

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 10:59pm,

Yeah, I know Gary. He is a very good martial tai chi guy in Chicago. I've played with him a few times and he always wins very easily. He is big on meditation, but he also has the goods. He was orginally trained in martial tai chi, Temple Style I believe, and also knows shia chiao (I know I can't spell).

 

 

Equally impressive his students can all also do the Golden Bell stuff. His good students can also discharge.

 

Hell, he sent me flying into a brick wall with only four fingers and I weighted almost 100kg at the time.

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:19pm,

Very funny. Ask him to punch you using the jing. The sensation is quite amazing and depends on the the typle of jing used. You will go flying.

 

While there are many frauds among the tai chi guys. Gary is one of the few who actually has it.

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:40pm,

Yeah both Gary and his students fight in tournaments occasionally. Sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. They always do well however. Just like the rest of us and any real fighters. He is very honest about the performance of both himself and his students. Hell I even watched him fight in a boxing match match once. He did that for his 50th birthday just for fun. He won.

 

His school is very small maybe half a dozen to a dozen people are there at any time. He is very picky about only promoting people who know what they are doing. I think only one person has every completed the system. Also the promotion to green sash requires the person testing to go out and fight someone from another system who is widely known as very good. If memory served a young gold sash was told he would have to fight Nick Fury to get his green sash. This was not an exaggeration. Gary meant it. The training is fairly demanding from a personal practice standpoint and posers leave. Basically you learn the form and then practice the techniques on your own. So if you are not really interested you quit. The two classes I've seen of his were for corrections to form and to practice two person fighting techniques.

 

He fought Vince Black a number of years ago and lost. Although Vince said Gary did the best of anyone who ever challenged him. Gary gives full respect to the good players out there. He will also tell you if someone is full of ****. Basically he is a standup guy.

 

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:56pm,

Yes I've seen Gary do this to a variety of people all of whom had fighting experience. He has done it to me (judo, budotaijitsu, shotokan, boxing and alot of military unarmed combat stuff). I watched him do it to a 5th dan Jeet Kun Do guy who was about 215 lbs and a tad over six feet tall, and an experience boxer in the middle of a match, as well as a few other guys.

 

To answer the other person, jing is a chinese medical and meditative term that means something like cultivated essense.
In fa jing this cultivated essense, which takes years to get apparently, is disharged out of the fighter into the target. It feels like you are getting hit with a brick.

 

Peacedog

8/06/2003 11:41pm,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you guys but I'm about 10 hours ahead out here.

 

Nick Fury is some local grappling guy in the Chicago area. I've never met him personally but I've seen video of him fighting in tournaments a few times. His techniques look solid.

 

As for the JKD person you would have to talk to Gary himself. I only met him, the JKD person, over a two day seminar and those were his own words. In any event he was a big solid guy who knew how to move.

 

Gary has his opinions on the meditative side of the art, but he can back it up on the street.
One of the nice things is that he is willing to demonstrate this on anyone who shows up.

 

I would suggest you call or go visit him in Chicago if you want to see a tai chi guy who has it. He is outspoken, but very friendly.
And not in the weird ass cult/I am the master of the universe way that many of the frauds in this form present themselves.

 

Peacedog

8/07/2003 2:46am,

Sam,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the sincerity. Gary is also a very skilled meditator and accupuncturist with about 30 years of experience. I've spent a few days, on a couple of different occaisions, following him around his accupuncture practice and he is very impressive in his treatment of patients. I can't speak to AIDS patients, but based off of his record in treating other people I don't think it is unreasonable that he can help with an immune system dysfunction or health in general.

 

I got interested in the healing modalities after breaking my back in a skydiving accident about 2 1/2 years ago. After one treatment Gary took me from 50% to about 80 to 85% despite having done all the other rehabilitative/drug thearapies offered by conventional medicine.
I have also seen him help people with circulatory and respiratory problems dramatically. As well as treating people who were suffering from mental and psychological problems as well with good results using the emotional liposuction techniqes.

 

In a world of frauds in the meditative/martial arts communities he is one of the few I have seen who had credibility in person. He is very honest about his abilities and will be the first to tell you if he cannot do something. Addtionally all of his stuff is solidly built off of technique and practice. No mythical nonsense. Everything is you do A and you get B. He is also open about the fact that his ability to do any of this is based off of lots of experimentation, good teachers, and years of spending several hours a day working on all of this. People out there can do some of this stuff, but the amount of effort required to do so is extreme and built over time. His techniques and training timelines closely mirror what I have seen among the few other credible practitioners I have met over the years and correspond to my own experiences which came from outside their systems.

 

Thanks for the message,

 

Tom Skarda

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:37 AM

To all,

 

I know Gary Clyman quite well. While his personality sets alot of people off he has some of the best martial tai chi I've ever seen. If you are in Chicago and want to see what real tai chi looks like go see Clyman. I never met anyone half as good while in living in Beijing.

 

BTW, Waysun Liao is no longer teaching the material he taught to Gary.
As often happens as teachers age they find a new focus for their efforts. If you want to get the martial side of tai chi from Waysun's lineage you'll need to see Gary. Gary is very honest about what he is and is not capable of doing and I've never met anyone who doubted his skills who actually met him. Many people do not like Gary because of his personality. Too bad for them. I've often seen Gary repair the damage caused by other less concerned teachers and I've never seen him permanently hurt anyone either.

 

Out of a handful of teachers I've met who "had the goods" he is one of the most giving and certainly more concerned with his students' well being than most. He is quite intense. That is the reason why he is good at what he does.
That said he is neither crazy or dangerous to the people around him. He just despises time wasters and chases them off. That cannot be said of all of the people I have studied with.

 

We all like to think that our teachers should be paradigms of virtue, have the wisdom of warrior sages and an angelic outward appearance. Reality rarely comes across that way. Several of my teachers completely terrified me and I often wondered if I would survive their training. Gary for example has never beaten me unconscious. The same cannot be said of a female teacher of mine who sits just over five feet tall and weights in at under 100 pounds. Likewise, the closest I ever came to death during training happened while going through a particularly intense series of trials at the hands of an angelic senior citizen that primarily practiced a school whose focus is out of body projection. It always surprises me when others meet these folks and are completely freaked out.

 

Best of luck with your search for a teacher,

Peacedog

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I have met at least a dozen or more of Liaos's students including those who have been practicing for over 30 years. It looks like this to me:

 

20 years ago or more he was teaching good stuff.
I haven't seen any students who have been with him for less than 10-15 years who have in significant skill. Some of the older guys are really good and really nice.
I know the training is very different than it used to be, because the older guys told me so.

 

The newer students seem to be way way off in some fantasy land. The older ones seem to have some base in reality.
I don't think Liao actually teaches any Taichi anymore. If he does, just barely. It's all student teaching.

 

I think anyone with a solid six months of Jiujitsu could take out virtually any of the students who have less than ten years of taichi practice under there belts.

 

Even the guys who have been with him for over 20 years still say he hasn't given them everything which is very interesting since Liao himself was in training for less than 10.

 

I have touched hands in a teaching environment with Liao about half a dozen times. He is really really good! And, yes soft like a willow. Truely amazing. Very powerful.

 

To Liao, from his mouth, as I understood him say it, the purpose of taichi is to purify and return to the Mother, the Dao itself. I believe that is true.

 

It is also a nice excuse for students who don't want to face reality. They can just pretend that their taichi is good because they are "returning to the Dao." When someone puts them on the ground or into the wall they can respond with "That was really physical," or "Taichi is not a martial art," or any other nonsense that will help them justify the fact that they don't have anything to show for their training. I feel really sad for them. Especially because Liao is so good.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quote: Dorian Black

My friend and
Thetaobums
-member LittlePie took part in Gary Clyman's „Personal Power Training“ and tested Gary's Jing: Gary touched him slightly on the shoulder and LittlePie went down like "hit by a sledge-hammer". Gary told him that he only used ONE vibration and that he could have used HUNDREDS if he wanted to.

Edited by Dorian Black
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Wells   

Wells
Posted

Are there any thetaobums members who live in the Chicago area?

Because it would be great if you would visit Gary to test his Jing as LittlePie did and then later you could report in this thread if it felt to you like a special power / high frequenzy vibration or like a "skill" as Stig calls it! B)

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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

*** Mod Msg ***

 

Due to excessive off topic posting the majority (19 pages) of this topic needed to be split out to recover the OP. Additional off topic posting will result in suspensions. Thank you.

 

- The Mgt

 

*** End Mod Msg ***

 

Awesome work !!!

 

Now ... to return to some troll-free discussion of the OP...

 

http://www.tai-chi-w...-chi-chuan.html

 

:D

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taijistudent   

taijistudent
Posted (edited)

Awesome work !!!

 

Now ... to return to some troll-free discussion of the OP...

 

http://www.tai-chi-w...-chi-chuan.html

 

:D

Hi,

 

I am afraid I will have to disagree a bit with your understanding, however I respect everyone's journey. Let me explain as best I can why I disagree.

 

Peng Jin is an inner feeling which feels like air blowing up a balloon. Without Peng Jin, a Taiji practitioner would either be spaghetti like or muscle like. What Peng Jin does is given a structure similar to a balloon. Thus, it allows one to spin oncoming energy tangentially, and also give back energy just like a balloon. It is very subtle and ethereal. It allows transfer of energy through the body.

 

I can't remember the movie, I think it was Jet Li's Taichimaster, where he discovers this energy by playing with a toy clown that bounces back no matter how hard you hit. I think he also plays with a spinning ball in during his training process, explaining this is how Taiji was discovered. I think this is a pretty accurate viewpoint.

 

Peng Jin is therefore an essential quality. It doesn't emit as much as it fills. I think Feng Zhiqiang gave a very good description of this in one of his articles in Tai Chi Magazine many years ago. He also described it as the fundamental energy.

 

Training for Peng Jin takes time. It requires Qigong practice to develop a relaxed attitude so that the energy can flow while developing Qi in the dantien. In my experiences, it is not something that you can say will take x amount of time to learn. It comes when it comes. It is very much an internal experience.

 

As far as Qi that can be realized externally, there are some medical qigong practitioners that I know who definitely emit a warmer Qi beyond the edge of their body and this Qi flow can be felt as it moves over a body, ostensibly to help move Qi in the patient. It too is very subtle. No magic. Just some training and some potential. There are many factors to consider when using medical qigong and for some people it may have greater or lesser health effects.

 

I hope this explains my point of view which I have gained during my period of practice and learning.

Edited by taijistudent
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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

Hi,

 

I am afraid I will have to disagree a bit with your understanding, however I respect everyone's journey. Let me explain as best I can why I disagree.

 

Peng Jin is an inner feeling which feels like air blowing up a balloon. Without Peng Jin, a Taiji practitioner would either be spaghetti like or muscle like. What Peng Jin does is given a structure similar to a balloon. Thus, it allows one to spin oncoming energy tangentially, and also give back energy just like a balloon. It is very subtle and ethereal. It allows transfer of energy through the body.

 

I can't remember the movie, I think it was Jet Li's Taichimaster, where he discovers since energy by playing with a toy clown that bounces back no matter how hard you hit. I think he also plays with a spinning ball in during his training process, explain this is how Taiji was discovered. I think this is a pretty accurate viewpoint.

 

Peng Jin is therefore an essential quality. It doesn't emit as much as it fills. I think Feng Zhiqiang gave a very good description of this in one of his articles in Tai Chi Magazine many years ago. He also described it as the fundamental energy.

 

Training for Peng Jin takes time. It requires Qigong practice to develop a relaxed attitude so that the energy can flow while developing Qi in the dantien. In my experiences, it is not something that you can say will take x amount of time to learn. It comes when it comes. It is very much an internal experience.

 

As far as Qi that can be realized externally, there are some medical qigong practitioners that I know who definitely emit a warmer Qi beyond the edge of their body and this Qi flow can be felt as it moves over a body, ostensibly to help move Qi in the patient. It too is very subtle. No magic. Just some training and some potential. There are many factors to consider when using medical qigong and for some people it may have greater or lesser health effects.

 

I hope this explains my point of view which I have gained during my period of practice and learning.

 

Hey there matey ... thanks very much for your well considered response.

 

I actually appreciate what you are saying ... in the school I came through (Yang family, 3 generations down from Yang Sou Chung) ... the term Peng Jin wasn't used in the context you are talking about. Peng, though of course typified in the movements of Peng Zhou and Peng You, was quite literally any movement or expression of the body that opened up or expanded into the opponent.

 

However we did have a term called Intrinsic Strength or Power, and I would explain it exactly the same as you have explained your Peng Jin above. I had the same conversation with Mike Sigman:

 

I realize that it is confusing, Stuart, but the basic "neijin" is called "peng jin". From peng jin comes the four directions of power: peng, lu, ji, an. In other words peng jin is the basic jin from which jins come (even fa jin, duan jin, corkscrew jin, inch jin, and so on) and so (here's the confusing part): peng jin comes from peng jin, lu jin comes from peng jin, ji jin comes from peng jin, and an-jin comes from peng jin. For instance, "Lu jin" is sometimes referred to as "peng jin out the back". You should be able to find those comments in Chinese somewhere, but if you'd rather, Jou Tsung Hwa's book on Taijiquan has that same explanation in it (from the classical literature).

 

Perhaps one of my predecessors in my lineage decided to drop the term Peng Jin for "intrinsic strength" so as not to confuse the bejesus out of students ... purely speculation.

 

If this is the case, then I am more than happy to agree with you and shift my thinking in the side note I have made about Peng Jin in that article.

 

I truly appreciate your view point in this ;)

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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

Following on from the opening post ...

Too readily, it would seem to me, people are wanting to believe in something special ... they would prefer the faith-belief in a fantasy rather just embracing plain old reality as it is.

 

Tai Chi Chuan, for example, is such an exquisitely beautiful and philosophically rich art that you could study the fundamental principles your whole life and never once have to mention Qi or Shen or any other mystic concept. Please don't read this as me advocating against these terms or concepts, I am merely pointing out that there is massive corpus of knowledge to embody as a prerequisite before even starting to consider the deeper metaphysics.

 

~ Sung Gong,
~ Daolu,
~ Chan Si Jin,
~ Wu Gong,
~ Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, Bagua applications,
~ Tui Shou, Da Lu, etc.
~ Shi San Shi, the thirteen postures, including Bai Men, the eight gates, and Wu Bu, the five steps,
~ Wai Jins like: duan jin – breaking power, chuang jin – ramming power, cun jin – one inch power, dou jin – shaking power, chong jin – charging power, etc.
~ Nei Jins like: chen jin – sinking power, ting jin - listening power, zhan jin – adhering power, nian jin – sticking power, sui jin – following power, etc.
~ Si Zheng Tui Shou, the four hands of push hands, Peng, Lu, Ji, An,
~ Using all the above in Fangshen/San Shou, fighting application: Da - Striking, Ti - Kicking, Na - Grappling, Shuai - Wrestling.

 

Crikey !!! That is a good 10 to 20 years of training right there, and all of it can be learned without the crazy talk of "super powers".

 

My point here is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.

 

;)

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skydog   

skydog
Posted (edited)

nevermind

Edited by sinansencer

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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

Im not being funny but how can you be a tai chi teacher and say that "super powers" are nonsense..

 

:wacko:

 

Quite easily ... I am a Tai Chi teacher and "super powers" are nonsense.

 

Do you think that there has to be "super powers" present for it to be "real Tai Chi" ??

 

:)

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taijistudent   

taijistudent
Posted (edited)

Hey there matey ... thanks very much for your well considered response.

 

I actually appreciate what you are saying ... in the school I came through (Yang family, 3 generations down from Yang Sou Chung) ... the term Peng Jin wasn't used in the context you are talking about. Peng, though of course typified in the movements of Peng Zhou and Peng You, was quite literally any movement or expression of the body that opened up or expanded into the opponent.

 

However we did have a term called Intrinsic Strength or Power, and I would explain it exactly the same as you have explained your Peng Jin above. I had the same conversation with Mike Sigman:

 

 

Perhaps one of my predecessors in my lineage decided to drop the term Peng Jin for "intrinsic strength" so as not to confuse the bejesus out of students ... purely speculation.

 

If this is the case, then I am more than happy to agree with you and shift my thinking in the side note I have made about Peng Jin in that article.

 

I truly appreciate your view point in this ;)

Thank you for your considered response.

 

Yes, intrinsic strength might be a very good way to put it. I think many teachers refrain from talking about it because it would be a distraction as students immediately begin to seek it. This actually inhibits the growth. Teachers might wisely feel that it be allowed to happen naturally in the course of practice over time. So, it might be considered wise by some teachers not to introduce the concept but rather allow the student to discover it. This is how it happened to me. I wouldn't have any idea what the teacher was relating until I actually experienced it.

 

Thank you again for your response.

Edited by taijistudent
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skydog   

skydog
Posted

Well it depends really because it was originally meant to be a lethal martial art, but is usually taught as a keep fit class right, and most people dont feel any chi for years of practicing?

 

But I have had a demonstration of personal power from a tai teacher who was doing push hands on someone and they went flying 20 metres back, I asked for a demo because I was a bit bigger, I was a bit skeptical too, and I also went flying with barely any force.

 

What is your definition of superpowers?

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taijistudent   

taijistudent
Posted

 

My point here is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.

 

;)

 

I agree. Taiji can be easily studied for a life time and one might mark one's own growth and changes in experiences and understanding. It is about change.

 

For me, Taiji has a very subtle nature to it. Nothing rambunctious or extraordinary in a manifested external manner. Rather, it is more quiet and internal as one develops an inner feeling and sense of flow while one is also developing a healthier sense of life in all spheres of living. From this, one develops a better sense of the meaning of life. It takes time as it should. We experience the meaning of Taiji as we grow through each stage of our life. I think it would be unhealthy for people to expect too much since this may manifest in frustration and inhibit growth. However, frustration in itself can turn very quickly to quiet acceptance (as it happened with me) once the frustration has become so large that one just gives up and then the relaxation comes. So there are many paths that one may take.

 

In this manner, I agree with your that expectations should remain reasonable (realistic) and this might promote a healthier practice and more quiet understanding. But then again, every person has their own path so what ever is true to a person they should follow. To thine own self be true.

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taijistudent   

taijistudent
Posted (edited)

Well it depends really because it was originally meant to be a lethal martial art, but is usually taught as a keep fit class right, and most people dont feel any chi for years of practicing?

 

But I have had a demonstration of personal power from a tai teacher who was doing push hands on someone and they went flying 20 metres back, I asked for a demo because I was a bit bigger, I was a bit skeptical too, and I also went flying with barely any force.

 

What is your definition of superpowers?

It is not what I would call a superpower. One can learn to use opposing force to one's own advantage. I have similarly demonstrated such things with various people, but it is most basic and I would not consider it super in any sense of the word.

 

Most early students are not grounded and often unstable. It is easy to take advantage of such a situation in a demonstration. Trying such a demonstration on a Xingyi practitionary would yield dramatically different results since they are so well grounded and very difficult to uproot.

 

Besides this, there is the Peng Jin or Instrinsic Strength that has a balloon like manifestation which allows a practitioner to send energy that rebounds off the ground into another person, and should this person be unbalanced their own weight will cause them to fall back. It is subtle.

 

I think to be proper, one should respect the amount of time it may take to develop these sensory skills, so one may call them extraordinary in this sense. By subtly extraordinary. It is like trying to push a ball into water and watching the ball pop up. Is this extraordinary? Not really I think. But it takes time to learn.

Edited by taijistudent
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Stigweard   

Stigweard
Posted

I agree. Taiji can be easily studied for a life time and one might mark one's own growth and changes in experiences and understanding. It is about change.

 

For me, Taiji has a very subtle nature to it. Nothing rambunctious or extraordinary in a manifested external manner. Rather, it is more quiet and internal as one develops an inner feeling and sense of flow while one is also developing a healthier sense of life in all spheres of living. From this, one develops a better sense of the meaning of life. It takes time as it should. We experience the meaning of Taiji as we grow through each stage of our life. I think it would be unhealthy for people to expect too much since this may manifest in frustration and inhibit growth. However, frustration in itself can turn very quickly to quiet acceptance (as it happened with me) once the frustration has become so large that one just gives up and then the relaxation comes. So there are many paths that one may take.

 

In this manner, I agree with your that expectations should remain reasonable (realistic) and this might promote a healthier practice and more quiet understanding. But then again, every person has their own path so what ever is true to a person they should follow. To thine own self be true.

 

Beautifully said !!! :)

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dwai   

dwai
Posted (edited)

 

 

 

Following on from the opening post ...

 

Too readily, it would seem to me, people are wanting to believe in something special ... they would prefer the faith-belief in a fantasy rather just embracing plain old reality as it is.

 

Tai Chi Chuan, for example, is such an exquisitely beautiful and philosophically rich art that you could study the fundamental principles your whole life and never once have to mention Qi or Shen or any other mystic concept. Please don't read this as me advocating against these terms or concepts, I am merely pointing out that there is massive corpus of knowledge to embody as a prerequisite before even starting to consider the deeper metaphysics.

 

~ Sung Gong,

~ Daolu,

~ Chan Si Jin,

~ Wu Gong,

~ Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, Bagua applications,

~ Tui Shou, Da Lu, etc.

~ Shi San Shi, the thirteen postures, including Bai Men, the eight gates, and Wu Bu, the five steps,

~ Wai Jins like: duan jin â breaking power, chuang jin â ramming power, cun jin â one inch power, dou jin â shaking power, chong jin â charging power, etc.

~ Nei Jins like: chen jin â sinking power, ting jin - listening power, zhan jin â adhering power, nian jin â sticking power, sui jin â following power, etc.

~ Si Zheng Tui Shou, the four hands of push hands, Peng, Lu, Ji, An,

~ Using all the above in Fangshen/San Shou, fighting application: Da - Striking, Ti - Kicking, Na - Grappling, Shuai - Wrestling.

 

Crikey !!! That is a good 10 to 20 years of training right there, and all of it can be learned without the crazy talk of "super powers".

 

My point here is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.

 

;)

 

Some of us have experienced this as not so mechanical. If your explanation of Taiji works for you them good for you. If what my teacher and his teacher explains to us works for us then so be it. For eg a lot of what we have been taught as part of temple style tai chi is very congruent with what Cheng man Ching and his students taught...and they do cover things beyond sung, alignment etc. btw I am not associated with Gary clyman but am a student of one of master Liao's senior student...

 

Instead of asking for fa Jing demos perhaps you should switch your focus to pushing hands with these individuals.

 

The way I see it fa jing is nothing mystical, it is just not biomechanical. It is directly related to being able to condense one's chi and those who can do it can fa jing.

 

Is it a combination of alignment and energetics? Sure it is. If your structure isn't correct you cannot flow your chi. If chi doesn't flow there can be no "drawing of the bow". If the bow can't be drawn there can be no release of the arrow...

 

So doing a press without even trying to fa Jing we can feel each other's energy... It takes listening ability (ting jing) to feel it at a subtle level. This translates to real everyday life too. One gets sensitive to sensing energy flow in all human interactions...

 

 

This is not mumbo jumbo .. It is just not in the domain of "double blind studies". Why is there a need to prove or disprove inner elements of Taiji with modern science? Science cannot even explain chi ... Starting at that point we are reduced to a mechanistic and deterministic model of existence and reality even though our experiences show us that there are non-deterministic and quantum phenomena that affect us everyday...we need to know how to listen...that's all.

 

Push hands with someone from a style that you consider "fake" Taiji and see what you think. If their Taiji is good then that speak through push hands. If it is not good you should be able to have your way with them and it is proven that you are better so perhaps your approach is better too.

 

You or one of your friends could go meet master Liao is Chicago and request his help in experiencing what his students teach and perhaps help clear up what is stuff vs what is fluff. In temple style there is no one else who comes close to master Liao's skill...

 

If you approach it from the perspective of an empty cup you might learn something of value.

 

My two cents worth...being one of those "scientific" individuals who know better than to pigeon-hole everything in terms of modern science...

 

 

Edited by dwai
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taijistudent   

taijistudent
Posted

I would agree that Push Hands is excellent training for understanding oneself and to understand one's partner. While individual practice allows one to develop, Push Hands allows for feedback in development as well as sharing of what each partner can do. Each partner brings something different and to learn to practice with each type of partner provides a wealth of knowledge.

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skydog   

skydog
Posted

In my opinion someone flying 20 metres back multiple times is nothing to do with them being a little off balance, Imo that is faulty logic, there is more to it than that.

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skydog   

skydog
Posted

It is obviously staged, who couldn't pull that stunt themselves?

 

It happened to me, and right in front of me by a guy who really didnt have anything to gain from it and one I consider trustworthy.

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skydog   

skydog
Posted (edited)

What lies have I told you? None.

 

I dont lie. Like most people who spend a great deal of their time in meditation, qigong, working on their character, lying is not something that I do, well very often at least.

Edited by sinansencer
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teknix   

teknix
Posted (edited)

Yep you sound like a scientist an academic who relies on science and is threatened by spirituality.

 

You made up lies about me.

Edited by teknix

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skydog   

skydog
Posted

Yep you sound like a scientist an academic who relies on science and is threatened by spirituality.

 

You made up lies about me.

Where was the lie, I said you sound like a scientist, you have been talking a lot of science theory on posts.

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