The Dao as a deistic, rather than pantheistic concept?

[Phi92]

So I've been thinking...

 

If the Dao is the path, principle, way of the Cosmos, its logos, then it means that it actually controls everything or sets rules for it to develop. Doesn't that imply at least some form of intelligence to the Dao? Not as an intelligent being, but as an intelligent energy or principle, however you translate it. If not like that and if the Dao is a part of everything, then that means that everything, every part of existence, has the innate ability to know its "course" or "principle." Does that imply a form of panpsychism? That everything possesses at least some form of a "program" or "intelligence" in itself?

 

Maybe I just got the whole thing wrong, but nevertheless, I would be glad to stand corrected and to learn something.

 

And yes, I know, the true Dao is ineffable in its entirety, but this is just an attempt to understand at least a small part of it. Bear with me!

[dawei]

I think a few definitions should get shown. I am sure there is a lot more which could be said about each:

 

deism: the belief that there is a god who created the universe, but who, after that, did no more. God is quite other than the cosmos and entirely transcends it. Having created it as a closed system, he remains aloof from its operations and lets it go its own way

 

pantheism: the belief that everything is God, or, to put it in another way, that the universe is God. Unlike deism, pantheism is not theistic. It doesn’t include any supernatural entities; it just looks at the universe in a different way.

 

panpsychism: The view that all matter has consciousness. the doctrine that each object in the universe has either a mind or an unconscious soul. One can replace soul with subjectivity, mentality, psyche or spirit.

---

IMO... these all developed out of the western world view of life and it is unclear if they can completely explain Dao.

deism is the furthest away... but when the Jesuits send back their explanations and translations to Europe, Tao was translated as God... and so basically deism.

pantheism is the closest but still does not qualify. There is some criticism that pantheism is dressed up atheism.

panpsychism - I knew nothing of this so it took a little reading. Based on my definitions above, I was left with wanting to look more as there is some connection. I read the below link, and you can search for the quote:

http://www.nla.gov.au/openpublish/index.php/jasal/article/viewFile/1458/2205

"while the Way, the Tao, is the mechanism of ecological balance within the system, panpsychism suggests that if

an organism reaches a level of consciousness so that it can free itself from the ecological order or

the Way, such an organism may consciously enter a dialogical interaction with the One."

Now that is an explanation one rarely hears in Taoist discussions... That seems to me to closely describe daoist alchemy and immortality, Xian Dao (仙道).

[Phi92]

So the Dao didn't just create and tune the world, but it is the world and its actively participating?

 

I know what those concepts are, it's just hard to pin down the Dao.

 

I'd call it pantheism or panentheism mixed with animism/panpsychism.

[dynamictao]

Tao and the Teleological Forces.

Lao-Tzu may have the following view on "intelligence of nature."

(First part of my Poem - The Song of Oneness )

 

With the world as One

Our minds choose to identify the myriad things

Our minds devise various forces to bind them back to One

The forces of One follow a principle to avoid drifting from One;

The forces drive all objects to conform.

The forces of One become teleological with a purpose.

As the purpose of God.

 

Therefore,

God shows intelligence (of man or nature)

God serves the hope of man that the world remains as One

God is all powerful, controlling all objects

God is omnipresent in all our thoughts

Our minds worship.

...

 

Lao-Tzu would probably make no distinction between nature and the way man should be.

Oneness is the source of all forces, all intelligence, and all.

We may worship it as a principle, as a Creator, as a ...

or enjoy it as a simple assumption with no need of any proof.

[Marblehead]

Tzujan rules!!!

 

Man follows Earth

Earth follows Heaven

Heaven follows Tao

Tao follows Tzujan

 

There is no god except for the ones man creates in order to explain the unexplainable.

[shanlung]

 

 

There is no god except for the ones man creates in order to explain the unexplainable.

 

After which we evoke the unexplainable to explain the God so created.

How nice!

 

So clear to me.

But then, I am the Idiot here.

 

Taoistic Idiot

[Marblehead]

After which we evoke the unexplainable to explain the God so created.

How nice!

 

So clear to me.

But then, I am the Idiot here.

More often than not the simplest answer is the most true.

 

You keep being the simple Idiot, Okay?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think if one is looking for deism in the Dao De Jing, their first stop would be Chapter Four:

 

 

[my translation]

 

09 湛兮

Oh, the profound depth!

 

10 似或存。

Seemingly also alive

 

11 吾不知誰之子，

I don’t know where it came from or who’s child it is

 

12 象帝之先。

(It is) the manifestation, expression, appearance, of The First, 先Primordial, 帝Divine Lord

[dawei]

So the Dao didn't just create and tune the world, but it is the world and its actively participating?

 

The first half sounds like Deism and the second half like Theism... We're sure getting a lot of 'ism's thrown at Dao

 

A few life examples and metaphors which I am sure someone will find lots of holes with but I think it's time we use get out of the abstract.

 

1. Our bodies put off heat and energy. Get enough people in a room and you have a natural heating system. Was our body actively participating to heat the room?

 

I would say 'yes' as this is a physical aspect. But if we look at the theoretical aspect: Is the principle behind what makes our body generate heat participating? Or Is the principle explain cause/effect or suggesting various potential outcomes?

 

2. A car design is made up of 10,000 parts which arose out of manufacturing and flourish together. Each part is but a small object; yet once they make up the whole of the car something more arises called suspension, handling, power train, combustion, exhaust, transportation, etc.... you end up with another 100,000 principles now at work. Yet the car design itself has not changed.

 

Is the overall design principle actively participating? Or is it like a guide? Whether we are aware of the principle or not, it is both there and it is not there.

 

---

 

I will add this: I take Dao as a Whole-Part (singularity-multiplicity), but I think it is part of some larger Oneness aspect. If we only look at the physical realm alone, then I am more willing to see it as the Source Generative Principle of the 10,000. (sorry, I think I just got back to abstraction).

[Marblehead]

12 象帝之先。

(It is) the manifestation, expression, appearance, of The First, 先Primordial, 帝Divine Lord

I have ignored that, I am sure you know.

[Marblehead]

(sorry, I think I just got back to abstraction).

But I will forgive you.

[silas]

Another interpretation of the last verse of the TaoTeChing ch. 4: Tao precedes the gods, all of them, including the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god.

 

In classical understanding, Tao is not a god - it isn't worshiped and heeds no prayer or sacrifice. Tao is spontaneous; However, classical Taoism acknowledges all gods, because they are born in the Great Yin-Yang energy field and they all occupy their own microcosms within Tao and gain their potency from the Yin-Yang field.

 

Classical Taoism is ideal as the basis of interfaith because ALL gods (Abrahamic God, Hindu gods, Chinese gods, ancient Greek gods, etc.) are on equal footing.

 

As to whether Tao is intelligent: Tao acts spontaneously, which is to say it acts impulsively, which by definition is without thought.

 

Tao Precedes The Gods

It Goes Like It Goes - Tao The Living Machine

Afterlife And The Non-Being Self

Edited February 24, 2013 by silas

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

As to whether Tao is intelligent: Tao acts spontaneously, which is to say it acts impulsively, which by definition is without thought.

 

My take on this is that whether or not Dao can or should be deified doesn't make much difference when it comes down to the matter of how we operate within Dao. An Immortal or Buddha would just follow Dao and not ponder much either, so I don't imagine a Primordial Divine Lord would be less Dao. So just because there is no thought, doesn't necessitate absence of the divine consciousness.

 

In a different thread I was saying something relevant to this, which I'll add:

 

Also, (as shown in DDJ, Chapter Four) "humbling the exalted/proud and exalting the humble" is the main activity of the Egyptian god Ma'at (harmony/balance/rhythm) and also the widely worshiped African god Ogun (in addition to the Yaweh in the Torah\Christian Old Testament).

 

The way of describing these gods seems to be maybe metaphoric, as in: the warring kings of Africa and Israel use the metaphor of a Primordial Lord, in human terms, while architects and artists of Egypt describe a god fulfilling particular role.

 

Like sports fans see life as a baseball game, musicians see a symphony, race car drivers see a race track, chefs see an alchemy of flavours, parents see a guardian, scientists and physicists see a bio-mechanical structure, and people who live freely and spontaneously with/in nature see The Dao

[silas]

>so I don't imagine a Primordial Divine Lord would be less Dao. So just because there is no thought, doesn't necessitate absence of the divine consciousness.

 

The absence of a divine consciousness is the key to peaceful and successful co-existence. Then what remains is a battle of the gods for supremacy of a universe that will end some day. By understanding that we all return to Tao, we can worship the gods as we like, without involving ourselves in that battle.

Edited February 24, 2013 by silas

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The absence of a divine consciousness is the key to peaceful and successful co-existence.

 

I don't think we're on the same page as to what is "divine consciousness" but it may not be of much benefit to get to far into that tangent.

[Stigweard]

A universal patterning that is a pattern of its own patterning.

 

Dao is the giver, the gift, and the given.

 

Must be time for more tea

[shanlung]

 

 

Must be time for more tea

 

I drink to that!

You provide the tea.

I bring those delicate titbits, and Liuligongfang pieces to be admired.

[Marblehead]

In classical understanding, Tao is not a god - it isn't worshiped and heeds no prayer or sacrifice. Tao is spontaneous; However, classical Taoism acknowledges all gods, because they are born in the Great Yin-Yang energy field and they all occupy their own microcosms within Tao and gain their potency from the Yin-Yang field.

 

Classical Taoism is ideal as the basis of interfaith because ALL gods (Abrahamic God, Hindu gods, Chinese gods, ancient Greek gods, etc.) are on equal footing.

I think you did very well with your understanding here.

[Marblehead]

I bring those delicate titbits,

I respect that spelling error.

[Stosh]

I appreciate titbits as well

Edited March 1, 2013 by Stosh

[Phi92]

So is the Dao a concsiouss being, as a God, or an intelligent force, as an ontological principle?

Or both, as a pan-en-deistic God?

[drifting cloud]

So is the Dao a concsiouss being, as a God, or an intelligent force, as an ontological principle?

 

Or both, as a pan-en-deistic God?

 

I think none of the above.

 

道 means something like way, path, method.

 

Not sure how we go from that to a "conscious being". Maybe "ontological principle" would work but I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that.

 

"Pan-en-deistic God" just strikes me as an incoherent (and aesthetically ugly) neologism, no offense.

[dawei]

So is the Dao a concsiouss being, as a God, or an intelligent force, as an ontological principle?

 

Or both, as a pan-en-deistic God?

 

By what principle do you eat, sleep, breath, laugh, hiccup, etc?

 

While you can come up with biological explanations, I might suggest that Dao is slightly north of biological towards ontological.

 

But as the DDJ suggests, it is prior to God, it is prior to our idea or thought of God. Thus, it is slightly north of ontological towards spiritual (or Wu-state).

 

If you truly want the source... keep returning until there is not more return... I would only say that when you find Dao... you will find that is not the last stop. So you may be asking about a pit-stop on some level... or maybe the ultimate gate.

[taijistudent]

So is the Dao a concsiouss being, as a God, or an intelligent force, as an ontological principle?

 

Or both, as a pan-en-deistic God?

I would say it is the intelligence from which everything was born.

 

From A Brief History of Qi, by Zhang Hu Huan:

 

"Clearly what the Dao De Jing describes as dao is the origin and basis for all creation.

 

Chapter 42 (The author's interpretation and translation)

 

Dao gives birth to One.

One gives birth to Two. (Yin/Yang)

Two gives birth to Three (Yin/Yan/Qi)

Three gives birth to the Ten Thousand Things (everything else). "

 

I believe that this is a reasonable way to look at it.

[Phi92]

I think none of the above.

 

道 means something like way, path, method.

 

Not sure how we go from that to a "conscious being". Maybe "ontological principle" would work but I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that.

 

"Pan-en-deistic God" just strikes me as an incoherent (and aesthetically ugly) neologism, no offense.

 

Panendeism denotes a "watchmaker" aristotelian principle making God who is the whole universe, but also transcends it. He doesn't interfere with the world as a theistic God would (Christianity, Islam, Judaism).

 

The word is in no way incoherent and it denotes concepts such as the native American Great Spirit (Wakan Tanka).

 

And how the word looks or sounds like is completely unimportant.

 

Ontological principle denotes something like the heraclitean logos - a cosmic law which pervades everything.