Getting in touch with the soul and expressing it

[GrandmasterP]

"We are not bodies with souls. We are souls just temporarily housed in our current bodies"

(GM Chang)

[Seth Ananda]

There is a place inside each of us that knows exactly who it is, and expresses in a totally authentic manner, and feels quite literally to be the core of who we are. It is radiant and open, and knows {without words} exactly what it wants here on earth.

 

Some might call that the soul.

 

I tend to think that Buddhists will never find it as they use the wrong tool in their investigation. I have never been able to access this place myself using Vippassna, and trust me, I have tried.

 

When I got converted to Buddhism 4 years or so, ago, this 'soul experience' was one of my previous experiences that I was Interested in examining from the Buddhist/insight point of view... But to no avail.

I left Buddhism mid 2012 as it just could not answer certain experiences that i have had, in any satisfactory manner.

 

One {or at least I} simply can not access that 'place' by sitting and observing or looking at body sensations, feelings, thoughts and so on. Doing so by its very nature, keeps you sort of 'mentally orientated' and one will never find the 'soul' in that manner, as the 'soul' is what is behind the looker, and never comes into view for examination and dissection...

 

My parable for the Buddhist path is:

 

Once upon a time there was a floating eyeball creature, that had some big questions about who he was. He decided that he needed to find evidence of his existence. He didn't want to just 'believe' others when they told him that he was an eyeball. He wanted proof that this eyeball existed. So he looked around and around.

Everything that he found, constituted something other than an eyeball, even his thoughts and feelings.

He began to feel disoriented and started to wonder if there really was an eyeball anywhere... then at last it hit him! There was no eyeball! None at all. This gave him a profound sense of freedom.

So he, the eyeball, sat back and started writing complex theories as to why there is no eyeball, and how we really are just a bunch of mixed elements that form a temporary false sense of existence...

Many many other Eyeballs joined him, started mountain retreats, and spent their days debating over whether the emptiness of a cup is the same emptiness as the emptiness of a yack horn, and their theories grew vast in number, as did the counter theories, and split of groups formed, and they created debate conventions, and so on, and so on...

I can't say the end, cause it goes on forever...

 

 

 

But there is a different way of finding the 'soul'. And it requires a different tool.

Outside of spontaneous experiences, It requires a total dropping into feeling. A dropping of the minds grasping, dropping its need to 'see for itself' and to control via mental understanding...

 

Stepping into 'Being' and 'feeling' is the required ingredient, for 'finding' the thing that is always there. When you are 'being' for long enough, it just 'emerges' and you realise that it was always there, and that you always have known it in some subtle way. Its the core of who you are.

And it will be more than clear that it is quite literally the source of awareness, or the place that 'looking and watching' flows from.

 

My tools to describe this accurately are probably faulty.

 

But its like the mind and its watching capabilities, are fantastic tools for exploring the outside world. and when I say outside I am including body sensations, many subtle energies, thoughts and emotions.

 

But Mental 'watching and looking' are totally Inept, deficient tools for exploring and discovering the soul. This is why Buddhists 'usually' don't discover the soul. The tool they favour for examination of 'reality' is only good for a portion of it.

 

But Feeling, is the consummate lens by which to enter the deepest regions of our existence.

And it is just as valid a tool as mental 'viewing'.

[Simple_Jack]

There is a place inside each of us that knows exactly who it is, and expresses in a totally authentic manner, and feels quite literally to be the core of who we are. It is radiant and open, and knows {without words} exactly what it wants here on earth.

 

Some might call that the soul.

 

I tend to think that Buddhists will never find it as they use the wrong tool in their investigation. I have never been able to access this place myself using Vippassna, and trust me, I have tried.

 

When I got converted to Buddhism 4 years or so, ago, this 'soul experience' was one of my previous experiences that I was Interested in examining from the Buddhist/insight point of view... But to no avail.

I left Buddhism mid 2012 as it just could not answer certain experiences that i have had, in any satisfactory manner.

 

One {or at least I} simply can not access that 'place' by sitting and observing or looking at body sensations, feelings, thoughts and so on. Doing so by its very nature, keeps you sort of 'mentally orientated' and one will never find the 'soul' in that manner, as the 'soul' is what is behind the looker, and never comes into view for examination and dissection...

 

My parable for the Buddhist path is:

 

Once upon a time there was a floating eyeball creature, that had some big questions about who he was. He decided that he needed to find evidence of his existence. He didn't want to just 'believe' others when they told him that he was an eyeball. He wanted proof that this eyeball existed. So he looked around and around.

Everything that he found, constituted something other than an eyeball, even his thoughts and feelings.

He began to feel disoriented and started to wonder if there really was an eyeball anywhere... then at last it hit him! There was no eyeball! None at all. This gave him a profound sense of freedom.

So he, the eyeball, sat back and started writing complex theories as to why there is no eyeball, and how we really are just a bunch of mixed elements that form a temporary false sense of existence...

Many many other Eyeballs joined him, started mountain retreats, and spent their days debating over whether the emptiness of a cup is the same emptiness as the emptiness of a yack horn, and their theories grew vast in number, as did the counter theories, and split of groups formed, and they created debate conventions, and so on, and so on...

I can't say the end, cause it goes on forever...

 

 

 

But there is a different way of finding the 'soul'. And it requires a different tool.

Outside of spontaneous experiences, It requires a total dropping into feeling. A dropping of the minds grasping, dropping its need to 'see for itself' and to control via mental understanding...

 

Stepping into 'Being' and 'feeling' is the required ingredient, for 'finding' the thing that is always there. When you are 'being' for long enough, it just 'emerges' and you realise that it was always there, and that you always have known it in some subtle way. Its the core of who you are.

And it will be more than clear that it is quite literally the source of awareness, or the place that 'looking and watching' flows from.

 

My tools to describe this accurately are probably faulty.

 

But its like the mind and its watching capabilities, are fantastic tools for exploring the outside world. and when I say outside I am including body sensations, many subtle energies, thoughts and emotions.

 

But Mental 'watching and looking' are totally Inept, deficient tools for exploring and discovering the soul. This is why Buddhists 'usually' don't discover the soul. The tool they favour for examination of 'reality' is only good for a portion of it.

 

But Feeling, is the consummate lens by which to enter the deepest regions of our existence.

And it is just as valid a tool as mental 'viewing'.

Lol.

 

What do you mean you "got converted?" I thought it was your conscious decision to try it out?

[Seth Ananda]

Lol.

 

What do you mean you "got converted?" I thought it was your conscious decision to try it out?

Hehe. I am a truth seeker first and foremost.

Conversations with Vajra, Xabir and CT slowly slowly won me over. Certain Ideas like E&DO once I grasped them, dug in and would not let go. So, despite as painful as it was, I forced myself to move out of communion with the universe, turned my back on all my direct intuiting, and entered the Buddhist path.

I felt I had been forcibly converted. I became a reluctant Buddhist. I started to like it eventually. I absolutely loved Prasangika philosophy, as it makes absolute perfect sense to me on a mind level. Dzogchen and Mahamudra are wonderful.

 

But again, I had experienced things that just don't fit within the Buddhist rhetoric or world view. and eventually I could not ignore that any more. I realised that Buddhism is fantastic for some areas, but not for others.

[Birch]

What things that don't fit Seth? I'm curious.

I had that big eyeball experience too.

[RongzomFan]

There is something sort of similar to the soul in Vajrayana.

 

Sort of. Not really.

 

One's own wisdom can manifest itself as deities, Buddhas and Pure Lands, such as in bardo experiences/lucid dreams where clarity is 7 times higher.

[Seth Ananda]

What things that don't fit Seth? I'm curious. I had that big eyeball experience too.

Well to stay on topic, the 'experience' or 'place' that some refer to as soul.

 

You see its very tricky to describe properly with words. Calling it an 'experience' could make someone think it is something that comes and goes, yet within that state, it is evident it has always existed, and that all ones personal awareness is actually flowing from it. It is the 'place' that views, but ones personality level, made of all those thoughts and feelings which is our tool for getting around on earth, gets distracted by all the noise of the world, forgets about its core, and thinks its the one in charge.

 

Buddhism is anti soul, because it accepts the 'mental viewing' mode of investigation as the only valid tool for investigation.

 

It does strike me as funny now, to think that Buddha's name came from 'Buddhi' which is the higher mental faculty's...

 

 

So despite buddhism running blind in relation to aspects of the universe, there really is meaning in the universe, our souls really do have a purpose and intelligence, and the universe really is a living sentient and interactive consciousness.

 

The old traditions are correct underneath their culturally specific interpretations of existence.

 

 

Not only that, but all this can be 'known' directly and personally, in a very scientific manner, as outlined by esoteric schools, shamanistic teachings, and ancient wisdom from all over the world.

 

And it requires a different tool to investigate with.

 

That tool is the 'feeling' - not emotions - but the feeling, a faculty that tends to be atrophied in most modern countries...

Edited February 24, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Simple_Jack]

Hehe. I am a truth seeker first and foremost.

Conversations with Vajra, Xabir and CT slowly slowly won me over. Certain Ideas like E&DO once I grasped them, dug in and would not let go. So, despite as painful as it was, I forced myself to move out of communion with the universe, turned my back on all my direct intuiting, and entered the Buddhist path.

I felt I had been forcibly converted. I became a reluctant Buddhist. I started to like it eventually. I absolutely loved Prasangika philosophy, as it makes absolute perfect sense to me on a mind level. Dzogchen and Mahamudra are wonderful.

It's not like someone was holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read discussions, articles or to pursue Buddhist practices. Are you basically equating your "forced conversion" to the situation of say...The natives of Central and South America, who were forcibly converted to Christianity when the Conquistadors arrived?

 

 

But again, I had experienced things that just don't fit within the Buddhist rhetoric or world view. and eventually I could not ignore that any more. I realised that Buddhism is fantastic for some areas, but not for others.

Buddhism states that those are just latent attachments in the mind-stream of the individual which are being super-imposed over the experiences from meditation and yogic pursuits.

 

I will agree though that Buddhism is not the ideology to seek if you want confirmation of the Atman-Brahman as an absolute reality...Or any sort of "reality" for that matter.

[Seth Ananda]

Buddhism is anti soul, because it accepts the 'mental viewing' mode of investigation as the only valid tool for investigation.

I want to add to this. Buddhist theory is very carefully and logically crafted from the conclusions drawn from their mode of investigation. Vippasana.

 

It makes total sense. and it does uncover certain universal laws. When you watch and watch and watch, you see that nothing 'seen' remains the same, all things come and go, nothing has any lasting 'reality' and there is no centre to speak of. The mind becomes more and more subtle and amazing {or horrible} 'states' start to arise, yet none of it is 'real'... The masters gain all kinds of abilities as they master their minds, including the ability to project themselves into new lives...

 

From here a very detailed philosophy has been built up. Increadible in stature. Yet it is all based on just one system or lens of investigation - Just sit down and look - Can you see it? Is there a center? Is there a Self?...

 

 

Thats all well and good, but there is an overlooked way of investigating that yields far different results. And again, its a very different faculty...

 

Feeling.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Birch]

I have another experience/idea to share that is related to this. I haven't arrived at any conclusions about anything.

The feeling (i'd call it that) is that I'm like a filter through which the whatever it is acts and interacts in the world.

 

 

 

[Seth Ananda]

It's not like someone was holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read discussions, articles or to pursue Buddhist practices. Are you basically equating your "forced conversion" to the situation of say...The natives of Central and South America, who were forcibly converted to Christianity when the Conquistadors arrived?

Hey don't get me wrong, I feel very grateful towards Buddhism, and no, no one was holding a gun to my head - lol

 

But i was on a certain path, getting astounding results, when the Buddhist Meme hijacked my system so to speak. Hence at the time feeling some resentment

And despite how good things were going, I 'Had' to follow Buddhism and its annoyingly good arguments as that began to seem like the path to truth.

Buddhism states that those are just latent attachments in the mind-stream of the individual which are being super-imposed over the experiences from meditation and yogic pursuits.

I know very well what Buddhism says on this topic. But it is an insufficient explanation for me.

I will agree though that Buddhism is not the ideology to seek if you want confirmation of the Atman-Brahman as an absolute reality...Or any sort of "reality" for that matter.

I don't want conformation of anything. I wan't truth. I would convert to the religion I most despise, in a flash if I thought that they genuinely had the truth...

Edited February 25, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Simple_Jack]

Thats all well and good, but there is an overlooked way of investigating that yields far different results. And again, its a very different faculty...

There are more unorthodox and (dare I say) "Shamanic" practices which are part of Tibetan Buddhism and Bon.

 

Dzogpachenpo for instance is based off of sounds, lights and rays.

[Simple_Jack]

I don't want conformation of anything. I wan't truth. I would convert to the religion I most despise, in a flash if I thought that they genuinely had the truth...

[skydog]

Was doing spontaneous movement with a strong emphasis on feeling self love, forgiveness, kindness, acceptance, friendship, celebration etc kind of like hipononop (however you spell it) and moving or like the bushmen do spontaneous movement focusing on good feelings instead of emptiness. I have had very profound experiences spontaneously moving/shaking/dancing to music, connecting to good feelings. In fact such strong experiences it gives me a certainty that I have little need to post on here if I stick to that.

 

The Aboriginals would make dot art, play music, the native americans the same etc etc

[skydog]

Just to add though Ive also contemplated the dreamlike reality of existence, trust, playfulness, "Who am I?"

 

during spontaneous movements and it was equally powerful.

 

So am I soul or nothing or both?

[skydog]

It also kind of makes one think why do people have feelings?

 

If souls come to learn lessons on earth then wouldnt becoming enlightened and spending all ones life empty be sort of against the point? I dont know

[skydog]

Teachings

A page of a copy circa 1503 of theDiwan-e Shams-e Tabriz-i.

The general theme of Rumi's thought, like that of other mystic and Sufi poets of Persian literature, is essentially that of the concept of tawhid — union with his beloved (the primal root) from which/whom he has been cut off and become aloof — and his longing and desire to restore it.

The Masnavi weaves fables, scenes from everyday life, Qur'anic revelations and exegesis, and metaphysics into a vast and intricate tapestry.^[40] In the East, it is said of him that he was "not a prophet — but surely, he has brought a scripture".^{[this quote needs a citation]}

Rumi believed passionately in the use of music, poetry and dance as a path for reaching God. For Rumi, music helped devotees to focus their whole being on the divine and to do this so intensely that the soul was both destroyed and resurrected. It was from these ideas that the practice of whirling Dervishes developed into a ritual form. His teachings became the base for the order of the Mevlevi which his son Sultan Walad organized. Rumi encouraged Sama, listening to music and turning or doing the sacred dance. In the Mevlevi tradition, samāʿ represents a mystical journey of spiritual ascent through mind and love to the Perfect One. In this journey, the seeker symbolically turns towards the truth, grows through love, abandons the ego, finds the truth and arrives at the Perfect. The seeker then returns from this spiritual journey, with greater maturity, to love and to be of service to the whole of creation without discrimination with regard to beliefs, races, classes and nations.

In other verses in the Masnavi, Rumi describes in detail the universal message of love:

 

The lover’s cause is separate from all other causes

[skydog]

"grows through love, abandons the ego, finds the truth and arrives at perfect"

 

similar to my own experiences opening the heart then emptiness

[skydog]

Reading more on this sufis are very familiar with fasting, chanting, working with breath, contemplation of sacred geomtetry, morality..

 

It almost seems better than most other stuff I look at

[Birch]

I got a more 'loving' vibe from the Sufi stuff as well. I don't know why.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Seth,

The soul is baby clear light. That which is reincarnated.

Feeling is bodhicitta, the dweller in the heart, the main component of compassion and Bhuddism.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

Interesting and worthy of contemplation, the subject of 'feelings'.

 

Does (Vajrayana) Buddhism deny the functionality of feelings? From my experience, i would emphatically say no.

 

It all depends on how one views the source of feelings/emotions, and what one does with them, i presume. If they arise from a place of attachment and contain seeds of delusion, leading to grasping and aversion, then there will be misdirection somehow, no matter how subtle, due to cause and effect, or karmic compulsions.

 

However, there are feelings which are positive, organizational, and can help generate and direct selfless intent. Such feelings are responsible for building and also bonding lasting relationships, whether with friends or family, and the community at large. Buddhist practitioners actually place quite a bit of emphasis on this aspect of 'feelings', so to a certain extent, i would wish to disagree with Seth's view, although not totally rejecting the basis from which his assessment was drawn from.

 

Right View comes first and foremost in the Buddhist path. This goes in some way to mean cultivating the 'eye of the heart', which, when decrypted, means reaching a point where one knows how to discern the various types of feelings, those that are organizational and functional, and those that could compound delusory reactive emotions, leading to the formation and propagation of ill intent, subsequently, undesirable habits.

 

We are all quite familiar with how feelings/emotions can often be the basis of distorted analysis, so it would pay to exercise mindful attention without dismissing the fundamental implications of such an important aspect of good mental hygiene.

 

After all, one of the most vital aspect of buddhist training is the uncovering of one's latent pure nature. Naturally so, those who have tasted even one drop of this 'nectar of immortality' can't help but feel gooood... Thereafter, its all about remembering the taste, and generating the same feeling for it over and over, until it becomes evidently present, suffusing all areas of one's life.

 

The great thing about the buddhist path, something which one gets to learn quite early on, is the futility of beating up oneself over the head when things are misperceived to have gone wrong, or some failure to observe certain obvious goings-on. This cannot happen unless there is room to say its ok to feel deeply and yet not become overly punishing, or overly masochistic to one's own redeemable self.

 

My few cents.

 

[Jetsun]

It may be an issue of Westerners absorbing the Buddhist teachings incorrectly which can cause a misinterpretation about feelings, Tsoknyi Rinpoche says similar things that many of his students try to do it all from up in their heads and go on three year retreats and just spend the whole time getting spaced out rather than making progress, as the Buddhist realizations are meant to be embodied experiences not some thing up in the head.

[C T]

It may be an issue of Westerners absorbing the Buddhist teachings incorrectly which can cause a misinterpretation about feelings, Tsoknyi Rinpoche says similar things that many of his students try to do it all from up in their heads and go on three year retreats and just spend the whole time getting spaced out rather than making progress, as the Buddhist realizations are meant to be embodied experiences not some thing up in the head.

This may be right, Jetsun. I have personally known a few (maybe 4?) of one-year retreatants whose time spent in retreat did not match up to the retreats' full potential, and they were Westerners. Yet, the numbers that i speak of are far too low for any significant conclusion to be drawn, although, on the whole, thru past observation when i was a fully active sangha member, its safe, i think, to deduce that Tsoknyi Rinpoche's appraisal is fairly accurate.

 

But then, long term retreats do contain very real, very up-close confrontational themes, often hazardous to even the subtlest ego-clinging -- while those who get accepted into these are far from novice practitioners, quite a few still find the whole retreat journey daunting, to say the least, and more than a few actually had to withdraw their participation (midways some) due to insufficient stamina more than anything else. The good thing is, for those who have strong resolve and the affinity, they will be re-admitted at some later date, dependent on a final ok from the retreat master.

[Seth Ananda]

Interesting and worthy of contemplation, the subject of 'feelings'.

 

 

 

We are all quite familiar with how feelings/emotions can often be the basis of distorted analysis,

Sure but I want to make sure that you understand that I was not talking about 'feelings' or emotions as such, but rather the feeling nature or the feeling faculty itself.

 

As a complex organ of perception in its own right, it is the thing that does the feeling of emotions, body sensations and so on, but it also does {or can do} so much more.

 

It is the function that can open the deepest Inner doors, letting one experience first hand exactly what 'soul' is...

 

It is one of the most important subjects of much esoteric science, and ancient law, and details of its use and development were often closely guarded secrets.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Seth Ananda