Can there be such a thing as a Nazi Dao?

[chenping]

Nazism is a label with negative connotations. If one is willing to get past the prejudice, then it might be possible to validate Nazism as a way consistent with Daoist principles. Take Marxism, for instance. Its principles are good. Its practice is not so good. This doesn't mean that Marxism is not in line with Daoist principles.

[Aaron]

Nazism is a label with negative connotations. If one is willing to get past the prejudice, then it might be possible to validate Nazism as a way consistent with Daoist principles. Take Marxism, for instance. Its principles are good. Its practice is not so good. This doesn't mean that Marxism is not in line with Daoist principles.

 

I want to quote a passage that speaks about this...

 

"Does anyone want to take the world and do what he

wants with it?

I do not see how he can succeed.

The world is a sacred vessel, which must not be

tampered with or grabbed after.

To tamper with it is to spoil it, and to grasp it is to

lose it.

In fact, for all things there is a time for going ahead, and

a time for following behind;

A time for slow-breathing and a time for fast-breathing;

A time to grow in strength and a time to decay;

A time to be up and a time to be down.

Therefore, the Sage avoids all extremes, excesses and

extravagances."

tr. John C. H. Wu

This passage tells us that those who try to enforce their will on the world will ultimately fail and that there is a time for all things that are natural... if you wonder how I came to that conclusion, look at the examples given. It doesn't say, holocausts, human experimentation, genocide, or even fascism, it gives us very natural examples that are a part of the natural order of things. If we choose to add an example such as the holocaust to this list, then we should look at other passages within the Tao Te Ching and find a way to justify it. I don't think anyone could.

So to say that their is a Nazi Tao is fine, but to try and allude to this idea that it's part of the natural order isn't, at least not if you are trying to use Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu to support the notion, simply because the Tao Te Ching says very clearly that the principles of Fascism are not virtuous and not beneficial to the whole. Ultimately any fascist regime will fail, simply because they do try and "take the world and do what they want with it."

In the end any government that doesn't recognize the qualities of freedom and liberty are destined to fail. I think in many ways we're looking at the decline of the United States, for this very reason.

Aaron

edited- changed society to government in the last paragraph.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Aaron

[Apech]

 

....

In the end any society that doesn't recognize the qualities of freedom and liberty are destined to fail. I think in many ways we're looking at the decline of the United States, for this very reason.

Aaron

 

Chinese culture is the oldest continuous society on earth. Ok it has changed many, many times to become what it is now ... but interms of location, language and so on it is an unbroken thread. I don't think it can be said to have valued liberty and freedom very much during the last 5000 years and yet there it still is. The United States is probably the only country to founded on the principles of individual liberty and the rule of law. I'm not saying other countries have no embraced these ideas but they were not founded on them. Just a thought.

[templetao]

Chinese culture is the oldest continuous society on earth. Ok it has changed many, many times to become what it is now ... but interms of location, language and so on it is an unbroken thread. I don't think it can be said to have valued liberty and freedom very much during the last 5000 years and yet there it still is. The United States is probably the only country to founded on the principles of individual liberty and the rule of law. I'm not saying other countries have no embraced these ideas but they were not founded on them. Just a thought.

It was the dream of the founding fathers to give man what he has never had before and that was freedom. Since the dawn of civilized man ; man has always been ruled by another with no personal rights or boundaries from the ruling elite.

[Aaron]

Chinese culture is the oldest continuous society on earth. Ok it has changed many, many times to become what it is now ... but interms of location, language and so on it is an unbroken thread. I don't think it can be said to have valued liberty and freedom very much during the last 5000 years and yet there it still is. The United States is probably the only country to founded on the principles of individual liberty and the rule of law. I'm not saying other countries have no embraced these ideas but they were not founded on them. Just a thought.

 

And have you ever wondered why there was so much war and destruction in China? The various empires and dynasties that rose and fell? Perhaps society isn't the best word, rather the government that does not recognize freedom and liberty is destined to fail.

 

Aaron

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

No, I can't send or receive personal messages, the moderators removed that from my permissions.

 

Aaron

 

 

 

That offends me.... did they say what the reason for this was?

[Aaron]

 

 

 

That offends me.... did they say what the reason for this was?

They've since fixed it, so no worries. Apparently it happens to everyone when they get back from a ban or so it seems.

 

Aaron

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

that doesnt offend me i feel a bit silly.

[chenping]

This passage tells us that those who try to enforce their will on the world will ultimately fail and that there is a time for all things that are natural... if you wonder how I came to that conclusion, look at the examples given. It doesn't say, holocausts, human experimentation, genocide, or even fascism, it gives us very natural examples that are a part of the natural order of things. If we choose to add an example such as the holocaust to this list, then we should look at other passages within the Tao Te Ching and find a way to justify it. I don't think anyone could.

 

First of all, I am not justifying all those horrible things that happened during time of war. Atrocities occur in all wars including "holy" ones. Nazism is an ideology like Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism. Ideology should not be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Just because a taichi practitioner goes around killing people with his art doesn't mean that taichi is evil. If we want to examine Nazism, then inquire into its ideology but don't condemn it just because someone's skin was used to make a lampshade. If we do this, then why not demonize modern medicine and scientific technology?

 

So to say that their is a Nazi Tao is fine, but to try and allude to this idea that it's part of the natural order isn't, at least not if you are trying to use Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu to support the notion, simply because the Tao Te Ching says very clearly that the principles of Fascism are not virtuous and not beneficial to the whole. Ultimately any fascist regime will fail, simply because they do try and "take the world and do what they want with it."

 

Political ideology has been around ever since humans began to live together in a society be it a single family, a tribe or a nation. The basic premise of any social idea, including Nazism, is utopia. Therefore, all social ideas are well-intentioned and none is absolutely evil. Daoism is also an ideology and we embrace it because we believe its principles are good. In this sense, all social ideologies are the same and only their names are different. Similarly, all practitioners of ideology are the same, namely humans; only their labels - be it Nazis or Daoists - are different.

 

In the end any government that doesn't recognize the qualities of freedom and liberty are destined to fail. I think in many ways we're looking at the decline of the United States, for this very reason.

 

If the United States were to decline as a society, it would not be on account of its social ideology which protects the individual and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This ideology was formulated to improve on all previous social ideologies meant for the common good. How can this ever be evil? If this social experiment fails, then is it the fault of the ideology or the practitioner?

[Owledge]

If we want to examine Nazism, then inquire into its ideology but don't condemn it just because someone's skin was used to make a lampshade.

That by the way was false evidence presented at the Nuremberg Trials. It was manufactured by the Allied Forces.

[Apech]

And have you ever wondered why there was so much war and destruction in China? The various empires and dynasties that rose and fell? Perhaps society isn't the best word, rather the government that does not recognize freedom and liberty is destined to fail.

 

Aaron

 

All governments fail eventually.

[Apech]

First of all, I am not justifying all those horrible things that happened during time of war. Atrocities occur in all wars including "holy" ones. Nazism is an ideology like Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism. Ideology should not be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Just because a taichi practitioner goes around killing people with his art doesn't mean that taichi is evil. If we want to examine Nazism, then inquire into its ideology but don't condemn it just because someone's skin was used to make a lampshade. If we do this, then why not demonize modern medicine and scientific technology?

 

 

Political ideology has been around ever since humans began to live together in a society be it a single family, a tribe or a nation. The basic premise of any social idea, including Nazism, is utopia. Therefore, all social ideas are well-intentioned and none is absolutely evil. Daoism is also an ideology and we embrace it because we believe its principles are good. In this sense, all social ideologies are the same and only their names are different. Similarly, all practitioners of ideology are the same, namely humans; only their labels - be it Nazis or Daoists - are different.

 

 

If the United States were to decline as a society, it would not be on account of its social ideology which protects the individual and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This ideology was formulated to improve on all previous social ideologies meant for the common good. How can this ever be evil? If this social experiment fails, then is it the fault of the ideology or the practitioner?

 

All ideologies are formulations around core concepts which arise in response to whatever conditions exist at the time. As such, because they are conceptual they are time limited in application. The Tao which is un-nameable is beyond concept and thus is not an ideology and is not time limited in application. The ideology of the 18th century is superseded by the 19th and so on.

 

The conditions to which the ideologies are a response are partly social but mostly economic. Fascism in Germany arose or became popular because of the Great Depression and it is likely that if we were living then in Germany we might welcome the economic regeneration, agrarian reform and so on which the movement produced. Germany went from being weak, suffering the after effects of loosing WWI to massive economic strength. This much might have made many support the movement in its infancy. For Germany then maybe it was the right thing. The fact that the leaders of the Nazi party turned out to be crazed war mongering anti-semites is something about their collective failure to meet the continuing needs of having something approaching absolute power. Power corrupts etc.

 

If we say that the Tao is beyond concept, is absolute. Then all things that arise must ultimately owe their nature to it. Even the Nazis. However because they (and practically everybody else) do not follow the Tao .. do not act in harmony with it ... then ultimately they fail. This is not because they fail to stick to an ideology but because they fail to recognise the flow of the Tao in all things and fall into mistaken concepts about the world and what is happening. We cannot say the Tao is absolute except the Nazis (supply list of others) we have to recognise that even the way the world works is because of the Tao, otherwise we lose the non-dual and fall into good/bad -ism of duality.

[Aaron]

Lao Tzu actually explains how to govern in the Tao Te Ching repeatedly and he distinguishes between his form of government and others, noting that his is natural and the others are not. So Nazism is not actually natural, nor is a republic, communism, socialism, and all the other forms of government we've tried.

 

America is a social experiment that was set up to protect the wealthy land owners from taxation by the British Empire. The freedom Chenping talks about wasn't intended for everyone, but just the few landowners. This is why we had the electoral college and the reason why slavery wasn't abolished at the formation of the republic.

 

Nazism wasn't a "spiritual" ideology, so comparing it to religions is kind of offensive, rather it was a philosophical ideology with a strong emphasis on race, in particular propagating the Aryan race and ridding the world of lesser races.

 

Chenping, you still have failed to validate your argument by finding any justification in the Tao Te Ching for your own belief. If you want to purport a Taoist philosophy, you should really make sure you can show why it is Taoist.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

Chinese culture is the oldest continuous society on earth. Ok it has changed many, many times to become what it is now ... but interms of location, language and so on it is an unbroken thread.

 

I think this point is best understood when one compares its longevity against the other ancient cultures. Of all the ancient civilizations, this has stood the test of time. One can't simply try to compare it to a more modern civilization alone.

 

 

I don't think it can be said to have valued liberty and freedom very much during the last 5000 years and yet there it still is.

 

That may be a hard statement to make if we are looking at only the ancient civilizations in THEIR time. As Aaron may want to point out their rise and fall... it is their ability to always rise again which may come out of a sense of the individual freedom [and responsibility that brings] to exert the survival of a nation.

 

The United States is probably the only country to founded on the principles of individual liberty and the rule of law. I'm not saying other countries have no embraced these ideas but they were not founded on them. Just a thought.

 

Rule of law was in ancient china but for different reasons. But one distinction must be made about various concepts of Law: China's idea is one of punishment and modern US idea is one based on justice. They have tremendous implications towards freedoms and limitations but I would not simply give one or the other complete victory. There are lessons to be learned from both sides.

[chenping]

That by the way was false evidence presented at the Nuremberg Trials. It was manufactured by the Allied Forces.

 

Sorry about that. All that is available to read and see on TV (History Channel) about German history is negative propaganda.

[chenping]

All governments fail eventually.

 

Even Lao Tzu's form of natural government pointed out by Aaron?

[chenping]

All ideologies are formulations around core concepts which arise in response to whatever conditions exist at the time. As such, because they are conceptual they are time limited in application. The Tao which is un-nameable is beyond concept and thus is not an ideology and is not time limited in application. The ideology of the 18th century is superseded by the 19th and so on.

 

You are defining the Tao as an un-nameable, extra-conceptual and eternally applicable thing. This is a self-contradictory assertion.

 

The fact that the leaders of the Nazi party turned out to be crazed war mongering anti-semites is something about their collective failure to meet the continuing needs of having something approaching absolute power. Power corrupts etc.

 

You are insinuating that only the Nazi Party was guilty of being human. Is that fair? People have been at each others' throats since the beginning of time.

[Apech]

You are defining the Tao as an un-nameable, extra-conceptual and eternally applicable thing. This is a self-contradictory assertion.

 

That is exactly what I am saying. It is not contradictory though. Contradictory means literally 'speaking against' ... as the Tao is beyond words/names it is not possible for it to have internal contradictions.

 

You are insinuating that only the Nazi Party was guilty of being human. Is that fair? People have been at each others' throats since the beginning of time.

 

people have been at each other's throats that is true ... this is because they do not act or live in accordance with the Tao.

 

The crime of Hitler, Goebbels et al was their own failure to see that their 'final solution' was not only 'evil' it was stupid and pointless as well. They took all that they saw as wrong or bad in the world and lumped it on the heads of the Jews - this was because they did not understand history and preferred ignorance to intelligence ... because for certain people it is easier. they prefer prejudice because it is easier than being intelligent.

[Apech]

Even Lao Tzu's form of natural government pointed out by Aaron?

 

 

I think that this natural government by the Tao would be infinitely adaptable ... it would produce a variety of structures over time which met the needs of the present time. It would change without changing within itself.

 

I don't think any such thing has ever existed ... not even close.

[Apech]

I think this point is best understood when one compares its longevity against the other ancient cultures. Of all the ancient civilizations, this has stood the test of time. One can't simply try to compare it to a more modern civilization alone.

 

Its stood the test of time to be sure and that makes it successful. But it has doen this without espousing the modern virtue of individual liberty. Unless you can produce examples where it has done so. In fact it is characterised as being about conformity to the social norm (although this may be a stereotypical view).

 

 

 

 

 

That may be a hard statement to make if we are looking at only the ancient civilizations in THEIR time. As Aaron may want to point out their rise and fall... it is their ability to always rise again which may come out of a sense of the individual freedom [and responsibility that brings] to exert the survival of a nation.

 

is there evidence that it was a sense of individual freedom that made China survive?

 

 

 

 

 

Rule of law was in ancient china but for different reasons. But one distinction must be made about various concepts of Law: China's idea is one of punishment and modern US idea is one based on justice. They have tremendous implications towards freedoms and limitations but I would not simply give one or the other complete victory. There are lessons to be learned from both sides.

 

Yes there is a huge difference between laws which protect individual rights and freedom and those which limit the same. I don't really see what we would learn from the Chinese legal system ... but then I admit my knowledge of it is limited.

[chenping]

I think that this natural government by the Tao would be infinitely adaptable ... it would produce a variety of structures over time which met the needs of the present time. It would change without changing within itself.

 

I don't think any such thing has ever existed ... not even close.

 

Are you suggesting that the Tao itself will develop this "natural government" and "would produce a variety of structures" without any human agency?

[Apech]

Are you suggesting that the Tao itself will develop this "natural government" and "would produce a variety of structures" without any human agency?

 

No I'm not, humans are, or can be, its agency.

[chenping]

That is exactly what I am saying. It is not contradictory though. Contradictory means literally 'speaking against' ... as the Tao is beyond words/names it is not possible for it to have internal contradictions.

 

Do you think it is contradictory for the faithful to say that God is undefinable, unknowable and formless but can be related to, worshipped and obeyed? I am not saying that God has internal contradictions. Don't you think that the faithful who makes such assertions about God is "literally speaking against" his own assertions?

 

people have been at each other's throats that is true ... this is because they do not act or live in accordance with the Tao.

 

The crime of Hitler, Goebbels et al was their own failure to see that their 'final solution' was not only 'evil' it was stupid and pointless as well. They took all that they saw as wrong or bad in the world and lumped it on the heads of the Jews - this was because they did not understand history and preferred ignorance to intelligence ... because for certain people it is easier. they prefer prejudice because it is easier than being intelligent.

 

There is more to the story of Hitler than what we have been fed. Anti-semitism existed long before Hitler and is widespread all over Europe even today. Everyone is struggling for a better life and looking for a final solution to social problems. Isn't your final solution a natural government for all to live in accordance with the Tao?

[Apech]

Do you think it is contradictory for the faithful to say that God is undefinable, unknowable and formless but can be related to, worshipped and obeyed? I am not saying that God has internal contradictions. Don't you think that the faithful who makes such assertions about God is "literally speaking against" his own assertions?

When you say God it usually refers to a supreme being, the creator. I think there may be a contradiction between the idea of an Absolute and a 'being' who is that absolute. However if the person frames their view of God = ultimate source and that the nature of God is ineffable then I think this is legitimate. If by worshipping you mean valuing and by obeying you mean something like 'following the way of' then this is also ok without contradiction (in my view). The issue of the correct relation between the infinite and the finite is fundamental to mystical thinking of all forms.

 

There is more to the story of Hitler than what we have been fed. Anti-semitism existed long before Hitler and is widespread all over Europe even today. Everyone is struggling for a better life and looking for a final solution to social problems. Isn't your final solution a natural government for all to live in accordance with the Tao?

 

Anti-semitism arose because the Jews were an identifiable 'other' group amid the Christian world. They took the blame for most things for centuries (including the death fo Christ). This is just one example of one of the worst sides of human nature ... that is to blame others for one's own misfortunes. I suppose people are looking for final solutions ... although it is a chilling phrase ... but of course if you were even going to attempt a solution to anything you would first have to know the cause, its nature and so on ... i.e. properly understand the world. Even then the idea of 'final' meaning ... that's it for ever ... is probably also erroneous.

 

In the TTC there are statements about the best way to govern. But there is a lot more besides. I'm not sure that governing is seen as a solution but more a case of 'if you are going to do it it is best to do it this way' ...

[taijistudent]

My personal understanding of the Dao is that it represents Beginning of everything which evolved into Yin, Yang, Qi (waves of moving energy).

Thus there is no Nazis Daoism, or any adjective to Daoism, since the Dao is the mother of all.

 

I find that I rarely quote from the Dao De Jing since it is so open to interpretation and such a wide variation in translations. I find that my understanding evolves over time as I search for literal and poetic translations that help me better understand the wisdom of the texts.

 

What we can say is that within the Dao there are equal parts of everything and thus there will always exist those who cause great harm to a great many people, as they do today and as they did thousands of years ago, as will there be those who nurture. There is no escape from the polarity of life. But we can mitigate by moderation.

Edited March 2, 2013 by taijistudent