Horse stance

[silent thunder]

I can get as low as the woman in the video and with my knees at 90 degrees but the issue I have is my torso sinks forward. I cant have a fully straight back. Inflexible hips maybe ?

I agree and have experienced similar.

Inflexibility in the hips will cause that rotation in my torso as well.

[Daeluin]

The chest needs to be open and empty, with shoulder-blades relaxed and directed downward, so the pelvis can sink down, and the sacrum can be tucked forward slightly, which then might lead toward leaning too far backward, so the energy needs to be flowing properly into the legs and feet to cycle the energy and deepen the root, holding you up and letting you relax. Or something like that. If the kidneys are depleted the energy won't flow through there right, and you don't want to force anything - it might help to raise up a bit and work on getting the energy to flow, or maybe work on slow, internal up and down motions and figure eight motions, to help dissolve the vessels and coax the energy into cyclical flow. Don't let the knees go past the toes, never force anything. Follow the principle of gradual progress and diligent practice, and over time the energy will guide you.

[soaring crane]

Why all the punching to the front when in a horse stance ?

 

Unless its just 'exercise' and has no 'application' value ?

 

 

Because bu doesn't mean stance, it means stride or step. The "standing" practices are always understood as a slice of time. The wide horse stance can be applied quickly when a sword is coming at your head, for example. But if you duck like that, you better be able to punch and get up again quickly.

 

The correct way to make the posture "easier" is to simply turn the feet outward somewhat. That eliminates the structure, but adds flexibility, and eases the tension on the thighs dramatically. It's "easy" (and a part of our fanhuangong practice).

 

The best exercise I know of to help grow into the wider horse stance is to find your width by starting in wuji, then turn the forefeet outward roughly 45°; then pivot on the balls of the feet to turn the heels outward 45°; then turn on the heels once more; finally, turn on the balls, bringing the heels directly behind the toes, making the feel parallel. This is the jumping off point.

 

Next, place the palms together, fingers up, and sink with as straight a back as you can, to the 90° knee bend, and place the elbows between the knees. This is where you have to adjust the width of your stance a little. The elbows should be pushing the knees outward, it should be a snug fit, but not tight. The chest should remain open. Keep the eyes to the front, head up, back as straight as you can get it. Don't do the tailbone tuck in this stance, not for a long while.

 

Don't let the butt drop below the knees or the knees to travel past the toes.

 

To make it more manageable, turn the forefeet outward a bit. Overtime, lot's of time, you can gradually do it with the forefeet more and more to the front.

 

Then you can do it with the arms out stretched (or holding a medicine ball). You can do it with a backpack full of rocks, and a whole bunch of fun variations ... but you have to grow into these things or you're just bullshitting yourself.

 

Start by learning and mastering wuji!

 

Hoppy Easter :-)

[Daeluin]

Nice. Yes, that significantly helps getting lower without so much strain, even as you say it eliminates some of the structure. So it might be important to be mindful that over time one will want to lead toward having the feet parallel and the tailbone tucked, perhaps as the lower stance work helps get energy flowing into the legs and bubbling spring and mingmen become more active as part of one's movement.

 

A common western mentality is to avoid gradual progress by taking short cuts and going to extremes, so it can be dangerous sharing advanced info where people might decide "oh I've half-hazardly practiced X for 3 months without feeling any inner progress and now I can advanced to practice Z," when they should be letting the inner work help the ego to dissolve and then listen to how the foundation of the energy is building and allowing for more advanced work to emerge naturally at the right time. Even when the energy is ample and we feel immortal and brazen, we let all that go, following the principle of flowing like water to the lowest point, always aware of the foundation we rest upon, always aware the need to refine, working toward greater unity with and guarding the whole of dao.

[soaring crane]

A lot of room for improvement here:

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Sometimes I feel that I spent maybe half of my childhood/teen years in this position, as it is a basic fundamental, and I did spend almost all available waking moments in some form of "practicing".

 

Punching? We began classes with 2000 punching in this stance.

 

At that time, for fun, I am reading entire books in this stance.

 

We have people stand on top, on legs or shoulders, and pile up maybe 6 big guys - whoever will fit, and we stand, do exercise.

 

My wife now, many decades later, sees me looking in low mirror, trying to put on tie, and say "Spent a few years doing horse stance, eh?"

 

Someone drops something, and I picking it up. She says "looks like spent a few years doing horse stance"

 

I am helping deliver baby, and my wife looks and says "spent a few years doing that horse stance is what he did".

 

Later, I see baby first standing, and say "Look! He is doing automatic horse stance!"

 

Funny though - Not once did I ever ride one actual horse, so far.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[soaring crane]

Funny though - Not once did I ever ride one actual horse, so far.

 

Don't ride the horse. Be the horse, lol

 

That's pretty impressive experience you have there.

[Nungali]

Because bu doesn't mean stance, it means stride or step. The "standing" practices are always understood as a slice of time. The wide horse stance can be applied quickly when a sword is coming at your head, for example. But if you duck like that, you better be able to punch and get up again quickly.

 

The correct way to make the posture "easier" is to simply turn the feet outward somewhat. That eliminates the structure, but adds flexibility, and eases the tension on the thighs dramatically. It's "easy" (and a part of our fanhuangong practice).

 

The best exercise I know of to help grow into the wider horse stance is to find your width by starting in wuji, then turn the forefeet outward roughly 45°; then pivot on the balls of the feet to turn the heels outward 45°; then turn on the heels once more; finally, turn on the balls, bringing the heels directly behind the toes, making the feel parallel. This is the jumping off point.

 

Next, place the palms together, fingers up, and sink with as straight a back as you can, to the 90° knee bend, and place the elbows between the knees. This is where you have to adjust the width of your stance a little. The elbows should be pushing the knees outward, it should be a snug fit, but not tight. The chest should remain open. Keep the eyes to the front, head up, back as straight as you can get it. Don't do the tailbone tuck in this stance, not for a long while.

 

Don't let the butt drop below the knees or the knees to travel past the toes.

 

To make it more manageable, turn the forefeet outward a bit. Overtime, lot's of time, you can gradually do it with the forefeet more and more to the front.

 

Then you can do it with the arms out stretched (or holding a medicine ball). You can do it with a backpack full of rocks, and a whole bunch of fun variations ... but you have to grow into these things or you're just bullshitting yourself.

 

Start by learning and mastering wuji!

 

Hoppy Easter :-)

 

yeah ...... sounds like some of the stuff they used to get me to do,   but still,  it doesnt answer my question , unless you were serious about ducking under a sword swing with a quick sink down into a full horse stance and punching back at the attacker to the front?

 

Nah, you cant be serious about that .... is that an idea you came up with? Have you tried it out yourself ?  It wont work   unless the attacker is trying to slice you with the sword hilt. In Horse stance, punching like that, 'squarely' , your range can only be as long as your arm.

 

But I get the 'slice of time' app ....   it most often comes at the end of a sequence or to assist a take down IME. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Sometimes I feel that I spent maybe half of my childhood/teen years in this position, as it is a basic fundamental, and I did spend almost all available waking moments in some form of "practicing".

 

Punching? We began classes with 2000 punching in this stance.

 

At that time, for fun, I am reading entire books in this stance.

 

We have people stand on top, on legs or shoulders, and pile up maybe 6 big guys - whoever will fit, and we stand, do exercise.

 

My wife now, many decades later, sees me looking in low mirror, trying to put on tie, and say "Spent a few years doing horse stance, eh?"

 

Someone drops something, and I picking it up. She says "looks like spent a few years doing horse stance"

 

I am helping deliver baby, and my wife looks and says "spent a few years doing that horse stance is what he did".

 

Later, I see baby first standing, and say "Look! He is doing automatic horse stance!"

 

Funny though - Not once did I ever ride one actual horse, so far.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

and have you ever once, in 'application' been in that stance and punched to the front, with any effect   (on a person, in a 'dynamic situation', not a board or a dummy ) ? 

[Nungali]

Here is what I mean about the horse stance. It is predominant in some kata but in application it is used in close, with a side punch, or adaptation of the feet and body alignment to finish the technique, (which can actually change into another different stance or, start in a different stance and change and as a blow is delivered it is  done in horse stance )  gain distance, use body torque, to lower centre in a lock up for a take down or after that to reach the opponent with a blow when they are down.

 

 

 

[Daeluin]

yeah ...... sounds like some of the stuff they used to get me to do,   but still,  it doesnt answer my question , unless you were serious about ducking under a sword swing with a quick sink down into a full horse stance and punching back at the attacker to the front?

 

Nah, you cant be serious about that .... is that an idea you came up with? Have you tried it out yourself ?  It wont work   unless the attacker is trying to slice you with the sword hilt. In Horse stance, punching like that, 'squarely' , your range can only be as long as your arm.

 

Just step toward their center - there's your range - and sway in whatever direction necessary to assist in evasion. And once the qi is circulating you can use it to pull you down a lot faster than gravity... can use the horizontal or vertical power as quickly as you'd like. Often people's root is their weakness - the neigong classic recommends always attacking for the root - so being low is very helpful.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"and have you ever once, in 'application' been in that stance and punched to the front, with any effect   (on a person, in a 'dynamic situation', not a board or a dummy ) ? "

-----

 

I am sure I have - and all kind of other positions, including "weak" ones. I had many chances to apply and be in all kinds of actions. So yes - some weak or not perfect positions, and it's good if we are in good position at the right moment. But we find the perfect in everything and use it right then anyway - stance is not as basic as change. Change is always.

 

But strangely, horse stance in training makes good strength base that becomes obvious in movement even moreso than in standing. This is the real value, and not really as a "fighting position".

 

Only good "position" to be in in a fight is either winning position or somewhere else entirely.

 

And "application" can be anything, even reaching to catch a ball, so there is no "stance" in application - just whatever training made and what instinct comes.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Nungali]

Just step toward their center - there's your range - and sway in whatever direction necessary to assist in evasion. And once the qi is circulating you can use it to pull you down a lot faster than gravity... can use the horizontal or vertical power as quickly as you'd like. Often people's root is their weakness - the neigong classic recommends always attacking for the root - so being low is very helpful.

 

In a one on one being low can create a victory, especially with a shorter range weapon.  But, step in towards centre ?  from a horse stance, while you are 'ducking'. IME any retaliatory or set up strike needs to be done at the same time as an evasion.

 

Unless you mean 'step in' as you move into horse stance and 'duck' ?  Still that creates the angular front I am talking about, unless you enter deep at 45 on the outside. 

 

The only instance I can think of where I would do that is with Eku, where I went under a 'right cross' from a staff, used the Eku 'handle'   to deflect upwards while sinking into a very low horse stance, rotate Eku and shove the bladed other end (the paddle part) sideways into the throat.  But Eku is fairly long weapon. 

 

But then again, I am coming from a practical experience with weapons. I will take your point if you have actually done it and had success, but not in 'theory'. 

 

This guy seems to like doing it too. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o6Q9t3BnD4

[Daeluin]

I didn't mean anything specific. The principle of cultivating the internal here is to develop speed and circularity, which when applied at a high level have very few limitations. People who really develop skill to this level have little reason to use it for fighting.

 

If I can move faster than the strike, then I can simply close in with horizontal power to where the weapon is awkward, where there is leverage. Circularity can be used to step in low while spinning into a twist while bending under a strike (that you are stepping into), even as you snake out a hidden strike, all one fluid change.

 

I like the concept of training via dream meditation, which might be considered an advanced form of opponent visualization allowing for scenarios as realistic as one's mind is able to create, offering potential for greater exploration than physical energy expenditure allows. I prefer to speak of concepts rather than experience to avoid clashes arising when experiences lack resonance.

[soaring crane]

yeah ...... sounds like some of the stuff they used to get me to do,   but still,  it doesnt answer my question , unless you were serious about ducking under a sword swing with a quick sink down into a full horse stance and punching back at the attacker to the front?

 

Nah, you cant be serious about that .... is that an idea you came up with? Have you tried it out yourself ?

 

I only half made it up. I have no idea what the Shaolin monks do or why they do it. But during a Bagua workshop, we practiced the teacups in wide horse stance (with the teacups, you can bend backward as your hand goes past your face) and the instructor explained that this isn't a position you want to spend all day in but it'll help you out in your next limbo competition, or sword fight. Duck, whoosh ....

 

I was mainly making the point that bu doesn't mean "stance".

 

Clearly the classic arm position is meant to generate qi flow, they hands aren''t usually in a fist, they're very often holding sword fingers, or forward-facing palm. Many variations on the theme. But there is always a dynamic behind the static. Or in front of it?

[Nungali]

I didn't mean anything specific. The principle of cultivating the internal here is to develop speed and circularity, which when applied at a high level have very few limitations. People who really develop skill to this level have little reason to use it for fighting.

 

yeah. my style was pretty much based on fighting application

 

If I can move faster than the strike, then I can simply close in with horizontal power to where the weapon is awkward, where there is leverage. Circularity can be used to step in low while spinning into a twist while bending under a strike (that you are stepping into), even as you snake out a hidden strike, all one fluid change.

 

Yep .... that's 'fighting application'  

 

I like the concept of training via dream meditation, which might be considered an advanced form of opponent visualization allowing for scenarios as realistic as one's mind is able to create, offering potential for greater exploration than physical energy expenditure allows.

 

yes .... but people think I am a bit nuts when I talked about 'dream training' ....but then got confused when I came up with new applications they hadn't conceived of before ( I even got accused of going to another teacher . Some of it was cross-training as well, but they knew I did that - it was more the 'imaginative combination' of principles from  different systems than the direct mixing of techniques - if that makes sense.)

 I prefer to speak of concepts rather than experience to avoid clashes arising when experiences lack resonance.

 

Well, I enjoy an MA concept rave too ... and like to avoid clashes  ... but 'when experiences lack resonance ? '     ?

[Michael Sternbach]

Forward punching in a horse stance may be a useful exercise but has little combat application, imo. Avoiding a sword strike by dropping into a low horse and punching in a forward direction presupposes that your body was fully turned towards the attacker to begin with. Okay, maybe it's your best bet if the attack comes as an absolute surprise (like somebody stopping you to ask what time it is, then suddenly drawing a sword. ) Chances are, the opponent will come back with another strike in no time while you are glued in place. Or kick/kneel you in your wide open groin. Yes, maybe your punch keeps him from doing that. But another problem with that posture (if we are talking combat) is that it hardly allows for any hip torque (read: punching power) in a forward direction.

 

I always try to keep one leg forward, with the foot and knee turned inward to cover the groin. It's called a power stance or hourglass stance. Many styles have this, from Goju-ryu Karate to Taijiquan.

 

I also use a comparatively high and flexible horse stance, but only at a 45° angle to the opponent, as a transitory stance. It allows shifting into a forward stance and others.

 

And before somebody suggests it, ducking a punch by dropping into full splits and retaliating from there isn't practical either - unless you are Jean-Claude Van Damme.

[Daeluin]

But another problem with that posture (if we are talking combat) is that it hardly allows for any hip torque (read: punching power) in a forward direction.

 

One of the main purposes of horse stance is to learn to harness rooting power, get the qi to circulate from the lower dan-t'ien into the legs and feet, and then increase that power, which provides the foundation for any movements the upper body makes. As one progresses one learns to harness this power without needing to be low.

 

As for forward torque, I'm not sure about that. If I hammer a post into the ground 20' or so, only leaving 3 feet sticking up, how much resistance to side-to-side motion will it have? It is common for masters to demonstrate rooting power and qi by standing in a neutral stance and asking their students to try to push them over. They aren't in a horse, just feet shoulder width apart on either side. Yet even multiple people working together can't move them.

 

And before somebody suggests it, ducking a punch by dropping into full splits and retaliating from there isn't practical either - unless you are Jean-Claude Van Damme.

 

I know someone who was so sincere that he would do whatever his teacher taught him in any form. This did result in eventual knee issues, lesson learned. However, once there was a form that did just what you described, dropping into a split, perhaps to duck a strike and punch up into the groin. He'd never done it before, but when his teacher dropped down into the splits, bam, he went down into the splits. Next move was to immediately spring out of it back onto the feet. Bam, he did that immediately. That's sincerity for you.

[soaring crane]

And before somebody suggests it, ducking a punch by dropping into full splits and retaliating from there isn't practical either - unless you are Jean-Claude Van Damme.

 

or a Wushu acrobat :-)

[Nungali]

next time I swing a sword at someone's head ... I am going to go to that spot before hand and place a large rock hidden in the grass  .... so when they drop into a full split .....  

 

 

[MooNiNite]

Horse stance is important for filling up the lower dantien at a fast pace. 

Not only on a higher frequency, But leg strength is important for alchemy

[Nungali]

Why is leg strength important for alchemy ? 

[Michael Sternbach]

next time I swing a sword at someone's head ... I am going to go to that spot before hand and place a large rock hidden in the grass  .... so when they drop into a full split .....  

 

 

 

I have actually seen more absurd interpretations of martial arts forms (kata bunkai) than what you are suggesting here.

[Michael Sternbach]

One of the main purposes of horse stance is to learn to harness rooting power, get the qi to circulate from the lower dan-t'ien into the legs and feet, and then increase that power, which provides the foundation for any movements the upper body makes. As one progresses one learns to harness this power without needing to be low.

Standing in horse stance for a prolonged period of time is certainly a demanding isometric exercise for strengthening the legs which are providing the base for any technique. That's on the physical/muscular level, now, but I don't wish to imply that such training doesn't go beyond that.

 

As for forward torque, I'm not sure about that. If I hammer a post into the ground 20' or so, only leaving 3 feet sticking up, how much resistance to side-to-side motion will it have? It is common for masters to demonstrate rooting power and qi by standing in a neutral stance and asking their students to try to push them over. They aren't in a horse, just feet shoulder width apart on either side. Yet even multiple people working together can't move them.

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. Horse stance just doesn't allow for any appreciable hip rotation unless you shift into a forward stance. Moreover, as any stance's weak spots in terms of balance lies on a line perpendicular to the line connecting the feet, the horse stance is weak toward the back and front of the practitioner while extremely stable sideways. That's why its practical application is limited to delivering techniques sidewards or at 45° under almost all circumstances.

 

I know someone who was so sincere that he would do whatever his teacher taught him in any form. This did result in eventual knee issues, lesson learned. However, once there was a form that did just what you described, dropping into a split, perhaps to duck a strike and punch up into the groin. He'd never done it before, but when his teacher dropped down into the splits, bam, he went down into the splits. Next move was to immediately spring out of it back onto the feet. Bam, he did that immediately. That's sincerity for you.

LOL Yeah, sometimes you have to learn the hard way that something the teacher shows may just not work for you. A torn sinew is a debilitating injury that takes quite some time to heal, and a teacher worth their money should be aware of the particular weaknesses and strengths of their students.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Daeluin]

Why is leg strength important for alchemy ? 

 

I would answer that the great heavenly circuit depends on the qi being able to flow unimpeded through the vessels and meridians of the legs. Zhang Boduan says the yin qiao vessel must be cleared before the other vessels will open.

 

The Eight Vessels are the roots of the Great Dao prior to Heaven, and the ancestors of the One Breath (yiqi). Among them, one should begin with the Yin Heel vessel, for as soon as this vessel is in movement, all other vessels are cleared. Then one works on the Function [ren], the Control [du], and the Thoroughfare [chong] vessels, because they are the sources of the transformations of all other channels and vessels.  Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy excerpt from Zhang Boduan's Wuzhen Pian, tl Fabrizio Pregadio.

 

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. Horse stance just doesn't allow for any appreciable hip rotation unless you shift into a forward stance.

 

Respectfully, my experience and training have created in me a very different perspective.

 

Moreover, as any stance's weak spots in terms of balance lies on a line perpendicular to the line connecting the feet, the horse stance is weak toward the back and front of the practitioner while extremely stable sideways.

 

Without proper rooting, yes. With rooting, you must take into account the practitioner’s ability to work with gravity. 

 

That's why its practical application is limited to delivering techniques sidewards or at 45° under almost all circumstances.

 

Physical power and internal power are very different, especially when the internal develops into spiraling power. In horse stance, one can shift weight to the left foot while rooting with the right foot and striking forward with either hand, with great power, stability, and forward-backward torque. This is not a static posture, and the forward backward torque comes from the depth of the root AND the spiraling, circular momentum in the legs - the shifting from left to right is not simply a left-to-right motion, but includes a circular transfer of energy through the vessels and meridians. The depth of the root helps to increase the power of this flowing river. This foundation is then extended into the upper body for the strike. Again, this can't be thought of as a static stance, but rather that the issuance of power from the strike is only one part of an entire cycle, and the return of this power after issuing is just as important.

 

LOL Yeah, sometimes you have to learn the hard way that something the teacher shows may just not work for you. A torn sinew is a debilitating injury that takes quite some time to heal, and a teacher worth their money should be aware of the particular weaknesses and strengths of their students.

 

Haha, I find myself filled with thoughts as to what a teacher worth their money might be, but that is likely best saved for a different thread. Ultimately it comes down to what Zhuangzi writes on the impossibility of truly knowing any other from the inside out.