Horse stance

[Michael Sternbach]

Without proper rooting, yes. With rooting, you must take into account the practitioner’s ability to work with gravity. 

 

I have no doubt that some practitioners can manifest the immovable body to an astonishing degree whatever stance they are in. All I am saying is that the horse stance is structurally weak to the back and front, as far as physics are concerned.

 

Physical power and internal power are very different, especially when the internal develops into spiraling power. In horse stance, one can shift weight to the left foot while rooting with the right foot and striking forward with either hand, with great power, stability, and forward-backward torque. This is not a static posture, and the forward backward torque comes from the depth of the root AND the spiraling, circular momentum in the legs - the shifting from left to right is not simply a left-to-right motion, but includes a circular transfer of energy through the vessels and meridians. The depth of the root helps to increase the power of this flowing river. This foundation is then extended into the upper body for the strike. Again, this can't be thought of as a static stance, but rather that the issuance of power from the strike is only one part of an entire cycle, and the return of this power after issuing is just as important.

 

That surely sounds interesting but is difficult for me to visualize.

 

Haha, I find myself filled with thoughts as to what a teacher worth their money might be, but that is likely best saved for a different thread. Ultimately it comes down to what Zhuangzi writes on the impossibility of truly knowing any other from the inside out.

 

Some truth in that. But dropping into full splits and expecting your unprepared and naïve students to do likewise?

Edited April 7, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Daeluin]

Some truth in that. But dropping into full splits and expecting your unprepared and naïve students to do likewise?

 

Dao is the only teacher. At times following it further requires leaps of faith.

 

Sometimes hiking along a trail, we are faced with what appears to be an insurmountable obstacle to our mind, but is simply a natural part of dao. To overcome it we may try to go around, and spend much time exploring a horizontal path, only to emerge in front of the same chasm further along. At some point we must summon the courage to surrender what we think we know of ourselves and change.

 

Zhuangzi's butcher advises how we may face the seemingly impossible knots in our path by slowing down and surrendering to our flow - trusting the voice of dao. A shaman once told me how the mountain required a leap of faith - quite literally off a cliff into the embrace of the forest branches far below - before he could develop the ability to receive deeper teachings the mountain was waiting to share.

 

I'm not suggesting we blindly jump off cliffs. But at some point in our evolution we will face such obstacles. Usually there is a voice gently guiding us, if we are able to let go enough to hear and trust it. The more we are able to trust the guidance of this subtle voice of dao during times of harmony, the more it will serve us in times that require leaps of faith. During these leaps, proper momentum and timing within the celestial mechanism is very important - the human mind can help us step into this current, but the mind of dao is what will lead us through transformation unscathed.

 

The student I spoke of did not injure his knee from following his teacher, but due to too-strenuous practice that began to wear him out, which he kept from his teacher, not wanting to let him down.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Daeluin

[Nungali]

I have actually seen more absurd interpretations of martial arts forms (kata bunkai) than what you are suggesting here.

 

Oh dont start me on that!  Teacher says   ( two of the most common movements in  Eku kata are a raised horizontal followed by a foot sweeping motion) bunkai are block to an attack straight down onto head and kicking dirt in the face. Considering range - impossible. More like a block and kick to the groin.  Also an eku 'sand flick followed by a kick , again impossible.

 

However and eku sand flick to the eyes can cause one to turn the face  away and then turn back quickly  and look ... just in time to catch the 2nd lot of sand coming from the foot sand flick, now both are in range     .   *

 

Just 2 of a multitude of examples. 

 

I came across this the other day .... you might like it ... I did  

 

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/7-reasons-why-your-bunkai-probably-sucks/

 

Regardless of what weapon is in your hand, one shouldn't forget about our main one ... the brain !

 

*  @  0.05  (but no flicking footwork in this pattern) 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

They obviously learned to use those oars by fighting off the many mermaids while out in their little boats.

[Michael Sternbach]

I came across this the other day .... you might like it ... I did  

 

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/7-reasons-why-your-bunkai-probably-sucks/

 

Yes, I do. Although I have been well aware of most of what the dude is saying for quite some time already.

 

But the insight that techniques needed to get categorized in order to teach them to large groups explains something that I was probably subconsciously wondering about.

 

Regardless of what weapon is in your hand, one shouldn't forget about our main one ... the brain !

 

That's what many a "master" seems to have thrown in their opponent's face first off.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Dao is the only teacher. At times following it further requires leaps of faith.

 

Sometimes hiking along a trail, we are faced with what appears to be an insurmountable obstacle to our mind, but is simply a natural part of dao. To overcome it we may try to go around, and spend much time exploring a horizontal path, only to emerge in front of the same chasm further along. At some point we must summon the courage to surrender what we think we know of ourselves and change.

 

Zhuangzi's butcher advises how we may face the seemingly impossible knots in our path by slowing down and surrendering to our flow - trusting the voice of dao. A shaman once told me how the mountain required a leap of faith - quite literally off a cliff into the embrace of the forest branches far below - before he could develop the ability to receive deeper teachings the mountain was waiting to share.

 

I'm not suggesting we blindly jump off cliffs. But at some point in our evolution we will face such obstacles. Usually there is a voice gently guiding us, if we are able to let go enough to hear and trust it. The more we are able to trust the guidance of this subtle voice of dao during times of harmony, the more it will serve us in times that require leaps of faith. During these leaps, proper momentum and timing within the celestial mechanism is very important - the human mind can help us step into this current, but the mind of dao is what will lead us through transformation unscathed.

 

The student I spoke of did not injure his knee from following his teacher, but due to too-strenuous practice that began to wear him out, which he kept from his teacher, not wanting to let him down.

 

Yeah, sometimes we need to take a leap of faith...

 

[Marblehead]

Everybody falls the first time.

 

Yeah, and there ain't no second time.

 

Go ahead, take your leap of faith.

[Nungali]

Take a leap of faith from your instructor ... just make sure he does know what he is talking about first !

 

 

 

 

 

[soaring crane]

Take a leap of faith from your instructor ... just make sure he does know what he is talking about first !

 

Brilliant! hahahah :-)

[Marblehead]

I would expect my instructor to go first.

[Henchman21]

If afraid to damage the knees or some such lacking proper instruction, you could always hold a squat! Just make sure your knees don't pass the vertical line at your toes, and your feet should point out like a duck. Get low!

[9th]

If afraid to damage the knees or some such lacking proper instruction, you could always hold a squat! Just make sure your knees don't pass the vertical line at your toes, and your feet should point out like a duck. Get low!

 

no, the feet should be pointing straight and parallel - the idea is to get past the muscular tensions and drop into the realm of bones and tendons, getting to the most raw physical efficiency - and thats gonna take a while 

[Henchman21]

no, the feet should be pointing straight and parallel - the idea is to get past the muscular tensions and drop into the realm of bones and tendons, getting to the most raw physical efficiency - and thats gonna take a while 

horse stance yes, not in a squat though

[soaring crane]

If afraid to damage the knees or some such lacking proper instruction, you could always hold a squat! Just make sure your knees don't pass the vertical line at your toes, and your feet should point out like a duck. Get low!

 

Not sure what you're suggesting. Do you mean that a duck-footed deep squat is a good alternative to correct horse stance?

 

Deep squatting with heels on the groud is a good practice for a number of reasons, and it's a natural position for humans to spend a lot of time in, but it's not horse stance. I would say the two aren't even related. The tendon conditioning that 9th mentions is a major component of the training, as it is all static, standing practices (Zhan Zhuang). Squatting won't lead to that.

[Michael Sternbach]

Ok, you guys asked for it...

 

A (reasonably) functioning type of horse stance - Kenpo style!

 

Not many useful videos on this out-there on Youtube but these two lovely ladies demonstrate it nicely:

 

[Marblehead]

Seems to me she had her feet spread a little too far apart but then I have seen some great masters who do the same so perhaps it is just as functional.

[Michael Sternbach]

Seems to me she had her feet spread a little too far apart but then I have seen some great masters who do the same so perhaps it is just as functional.

 

Actually, I also usually stand in a somewhat higher horse stance than the lady which, in a version facing the opponent with the side, is employed as a "ready stance" by most Kenpoists. Personally, I prefer a variation thereof with the back foot turned slightly forward and resting on its ball, as this gives me far more mobility in all directions than the traditional fighting horse. More like a a slightly enlarged  hourglass stance (for starters). If you get the idea... ?

 

Also, I will be holding my hands up near my face, whining something like: "I'm sorry man, I really dun wanna fight", while loading that smash hit to his face.

 

But as you say, functionality varies with the purpose, and if I were to smash through a stack of boards with a sidewards elbow strike, a comparatively deeper horse stance would be preferable.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Not sure what you're suggesting. Do you mean that a duck-footed deep squat is a good alternative to correct horse stance?

 

Deep squatting with heels on the groud is a good practice for a number of reasons, and it's a natural position for humans to spend a lot of time in, but it's not horse stance. I would say the two aren't even related. The tendon conditioning that 9th mentions is a major component of the training, as it is all static, standing practices (Zhan Zhuang). Squatting won't lead to that.

 

 

Duck stance  

 

I have done heron and crane form .... but never duck . 

 

... although I do 'quack' a lot. 

[Nungali]

Ok, you guys asked for it...

 

A (reasonably) functioning type of horse stance - Kenpo style!

 

Not many useful videos on this out-there on Youtube but these two lovely ladies demonstrate it nicely:

 

 

 

her thumb joints were not at 90 degrees !  

 

 

 

[Nungali]

This, by far is the best horse stance one can accomplish;

 

 

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/031/b/5/world_war_centaur_by_jakeparker-d74lmtu.jpg

[Henchman21]

Not sure what you're suggesting. Do you mean that a duck-footed deep squat is a good alternative to correct horse stance?

 

Deep squatting with heels on the groud is a good practice for a number of reasons, and it's a natural position for humans to spend a lot of time in, but it's not horse stance. I would say the two aren't even related. The tendon conditioning that 9th mentions is a major component of the training, as it is all static, standing practices (Zhan Zhuang). Squatting won't lead to that.

I suggested squatting as an alternative to horse stance for those without an instructor and afraid of injury to the knees. Gotta train some kinda leg work! Good points all around about the benefits from horse that are not derived from mere squats, though. I stand by my recommendation though, duck-footed squatting.

[Nungali]

[Marblehead]

Be the duck.

[Michael Sternbach]

This, by far is the best horse stance one can accomplish;

 

 

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/031/b/5/world_war_centaur_by_jakeparker-d74lmtu.jpg

 

The modern Sagittarius.

[Nungali]

Now I want to try doing a kata with flippers on.