Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen - Clear Light

Tibetan_Ice · February 28, 2013

Hi Konchog,

Yes, I will take you up on that discussion about clear light.

Thanks TI,

in the interest of not derailing the thread, i suggest we start another one to talk more about it.

unless we're done talking, in which case, i can only reiterate that i don't personally have a lot of familiarity with clear light. I am not even sure i understand it. I am encouraged to study deeper into the matter by this exchange tho, so thanks.

You see, even though you were underwhelmed with rest of the book, I kept reading it and I'm in love with this book now.

The concepts in this book resonate very deeply with the rest of what I've been learning and experiencing. As you sit, with neither grasping nor averting, letting be, making no effort to 'do' anything but watch, and not become attached to what you see or think about it, the veils drop away, everything you see becomes brighter and brighter until it just radiates. As you progress, you see the light, brighter than anything. That is the manifestation of the child clear light or child rigpa (according to this book). It manifests into several different spectacles. But if you grasp at them, if you think about them, they dull out. This is training is watching and not thinking about what you are seeing.

Then, once you are well established in child clear light, it breaks through and joins mother clear, mother rigpa, enlightenment.

That book mentions the five lights of primordial wisdom, the five elements, the Bon teachings. How the clear light manifests into the five lights, and depending on how they are percieved, they are either the five primordial wisdoms or the five manifestations of samsara.

The theme that samsara and nirvana are just two sides of the same coin is also present in this book. And, you also find the disregard of ethics, or good and bad, and other forms of dualistic grasping.

I don't think you read the book. I think you abandoned it after a while and didn't finish it. For, if you had, I think you would have understood what clear light is. The fourth Vajra verse describes it so wonderfully, I don't see how anyone could have missed it, or not understood it.

And, I was also quite suprised when the book mentioned that breath meditation is an opportunity to buddhahood:

More specifically, regarding “the contemplation of riding the breath,” without making any deliberate effort, in the gap between the ending of exhalation and the beginning of the next inhalation when the breath is still, internal clarity is freed from subtle vital energy and in the consequent absence of mental propensity the inner clarity of pure being arises as sky-like contemplation. Through that recognition of the nature of mind, buddhahood is attained in the very moment in immanent transparence.

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 5899-5903). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

Notice, he says "without deliberate effort". Breath meditation is a way to practice "neither grasping nor averting, resting in the natural state".

But, on the topic of clear light. Clear light is the source of samsara and nirvana. It is that which is inextricably mixed into the dharmakaya. It's brilliance and shine reveals itself the more you still the mind, let go, neither grasp nor avert.. The book calls it non-meditation..

This has been my experience. As I progress in watching the breath, I'm getting better at not consciously controlling the breathing. As I progress, the thoughts and images appear crystal clear and very luminous, bright, shiny and radiant. Vivid. When the reflection of the child clear light manifests, it is very bright.. I haven't broken through to mother clear light yet, but when I do I will let you know.

Here are some quotes from that book about the clear light. There is no need for discussion. I'm just presenting something that I love:

54. ASSIMILATING THE UNCONFINED SIX SENSORY FIELDS LEFT LOOSELY In the vast super-matrix of rigpa that is brilliant emptiness, no matter what evanescent particularity shows itself, the direct sensory perception of rigpa illuminates its reality and the image unconfined, cognition is pure pleasure; the six sensory fields relaxed in the pristine-awareness matrix, clear light, unobstructed, without outside or inside, in artless super-relaxation—spontaneity!

Within the brilliant emptiness of rigpa, as we rest openly in supremely uninvolved natural clarity, the inherent brilliance of external appearances is unconfined and the senses hanging loose and free, since there is nothing to hang on to, the objects in the field of appearances are not fixated. In the vast existential silence of unmade seamless clear light, uninterrupted radiance in the matrix that allows no beginnings, appearances are like reflections in a pellucid lake.

...

In this final dissolution, or disappearance, even the body of light dissolves, and even those who have not realized the celestial fortress in this lifetime, although knowing the reflexive release of positive and negative projection in the moment, are released into the ground of being. This is the moment of climax of the yoga of Cutting Through. The child clear light merges with the mother clear light. The samsaric illusion of corporeality dissolves and the buddha-fields of nirvana arisen in the bardo of reality (chonyi bardo) likewise revert to their source. There is no further emanation and of course, no rebirth. “Death” is reversion to rigpa as the source.

...

The three dimensions of rigpa are the clear light of emptiness:

nothing eternal, without substance,

nothing ephemeral, the buddha-body is clear light;

undifferentiated, without inside or outside,

the buddha-body is translucent empty space;

indivisible emptiness and appearance, utterly intangible,

the buddha-body is birthless, deathless, and immutable.

Buddha-speech is actually unoriginated,

unarticulated, free of meaning, beyond all words and expression.

Buddha-mind is the sky-like purity of rigpa,

without mentality, mind, and intelligence—

no feeling, so no sensation,

no ideation, so no sense of self,

no karmic impulse, so no incarnation,

no consciousness, so no delusion,

no five sensory fields, so no grasping,

no desire, so no attachment,

no virtue or vice, so no maturation,

and no self-identity, so no egoism.

With the five doors of pristine awareness wide open,

the nature of everything is the same buddhahood,

body, speech, and mind without defilement,

and there is no view, no meditation, no conduct,

no paths to traverse, no levels to climb.

...

In the vast super-matrix of rigpa that is brilliant emptiness, no matter what evanescent particularity shows itself, the direct sensory perception of rigpa illuminates its reality and the image unconfined, cognition is pure pleasure; the six sensory fields relaxed in the pristine-awareness matrix, clear light, unobstructed, without outside or inside, in artless super-relaxation—spontaneity! With the carefree mind of an idler, neither tight nor slack, we rest easy; here rigpa is infinitely open, like a crystal-clear sky, and we linger gratefully in spaciousness without anticipation. With spacious intuition of the brilliant emptiness of reality, unconfined rigpa is a seamless infinite openness, and free of belief, all ideation dissolving, all things converge in the matrix of the dynamic of rigpa. The blissful ground and a happy mind blended, inside and outside is the one taste of pure mind: this is the vision of reality as the consummate way of being. At the moment of engaging with a sensory object, the mind is opened to infinite, blissful vision, and free of belief, as its luminous expression, its natural clarity, it is assimilated to super seamless openness.

...

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 875-899). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

So, I don't know what you need in order to think that this is a great book. Although there is the odd non-conventional term, like "absence" and lots of big words, this book is right on.

TI

konchog uma · February 28, 2013

hi TI,

remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like it so much.

i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation underlying all reality, and so on and so forth

what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo, but i didn't recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light,

At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and commentary. Thats just me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said that the book wasn't good.

anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga, with small but good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally private, so even when i do achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in the traditional way. Even when i talk privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama and other meditation teachers about things like that. But i digress

If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the words are just words to me (alas! lol)...

Edited February 28, 2013 by konchog uma

Jetsun · February 28, 2013

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

stefos · March 1, 2013

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

Hi,

Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature" through a master.

Verbally explaining it won't do it.

It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food!

Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness, most of us were not....lol

Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked Awareness." Krishnamurti said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he himself taught on & about Choiceless Awareness quite a lot.

Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working with the subtle energy system or "voice."

Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but

how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the verbatim words of a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it.

Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of!

Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know.

Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications.

You won't be disappointed.

Regarding teachings through dreams:

One must have "culled" the ability to be aware in the dream itself.

This is a practice taught in Dzogchen circles.

Rudolf Steiner mentions "continuity of consciousness from sleep into the dreaming state."

I think that THIS is something different than Dzogchen teachings but obviously similar.

Finally, One has to have a relationship IN the spirit realm.

"Who would a person communicate to and Why?" are the quintessential questions along with

"Why would a person/entity want to talk with me if they didn't have an agenda? be it selfish or selfless???" is the other question.

I hope this makes sense sir.

Take care & God bless you!

Stefos

P.S. I view Advaita Vedanta in the same manner as I do Dzogchen...it's all theory without a teacher!

Edited March 1, 2013 by stefos

Tibetan_Ice · March 1, 2013

TI,

Do you have a teacher? Or, are you self-taught/discovering?

Thanks,

RV

Hi Rainbowvein

Well, it's a little off topic, but, I have a long history of spiritual practices.. for what it is worth.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26312-some-vedanta-traps-ive-come-across/?p=395385

Here I describe an experience of clear light:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-with-b-alan-wallace/?p=384118

TI

ps.. Love your name..

Tibetan_Ice · March 1, 2013

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

Hi Jetsun,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, there are many stories about Buddhists performing amazing feats.. I like the one about the Buddhist who painted a picture of a cow on the wall and then proceeded to milk it, producing real milk. !

Did you ever notice that the advanced Dzogchen preliminary practises like trecko and thogal, which are also called the Leap-over, or jumping through, or the fastest methods (if one cannot realize the true nature of mind directly) are very similar to third eye meditations, kriya yoga/pranayama and other 'standard' hindu practices?

TI

Tibetan_Ice · March 1, 2013

Hi,

Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature" through a master.

Verbally explaining it won't do it.

It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food!

Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness, most of us were not....lol

Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked Awareness." Krishnamurti said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he himself taught on & about Choiceless Awareness quite a lot.

Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working with the subtle energy system or "voice."

Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but

how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the verbatim words of a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it.

Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of!

Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know.

Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications.

You won't be disappointed.

Regarding teachings through dreams:

One must have "culled" the ability to be aware in the dream itself.

This is a practice taught in Dzogchen circles.

Rudolf Steiner mentions "continuity of consciousness from sleep into the dreaming state."

I think that THIS is something different than Dzogchen teachings but obviously similar.

Finally, One has to have a relationship IN the spirit realm.

"Who would a person communicate to and Why?" are the quintessential questions along with

"Why would a person/entity want to talk with me if they didn't have an agenda? be it selfish or selfless???" is the other question.

I hope this makes sense sir.

Take care & God bless you!

Stefos

P.S. I view Advaita Vedanta in the same manner as I do Dzogchen...it's all theory without a teacher!

My God Stefos, you are just all over the place, aren't you?

I did read some J Krishnamurti, and then I read some U G Krishnamurti ( a while ago), just so I didn't confuse the two..

I wondered who pee-ed in U G's cornflakes..

Instead of giving advice, I would be more interested in hearing about your regular practices (or non-practices) and experiences.

Thanks for posting the auric sight experience in the occult thread. Although it was an elementary experience, the important part of it was that by resting your head on your hands and gazing upwards like you did, you tied into the secret kati channel from the heart to the head. The purple and green lights were part of that heart-consciousness manifestation.

Here are some books I would recommend:

1 "Ground, Path, And Fruition: Teachings of Tsoknyi Rinpoche on Mind and Mind Essence"

Tsoknyi Rinpoche; Paperback; $49.00

In Stock

Sold by: Vajra Books

1 "Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen"

Rabjam, Longchen; Paperback; $12.21

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "A Practice Of Padmasambhava: Essential Instructions On The Path To Awakening"

Gyaltsap, Sechen; Paperback; $15.63

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Awakening The Luminous Mind: Tibetan Meditation for Inner Peace and Joy"

Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $10.17

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Awakening the Sacred Body"

Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $13.57

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen"

Karma Chagme; Paperback; $20.48

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "A Spacious Path To Freedom: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Atiyoga"

Chagme, Karma; Paperback; $14.31

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC

TI

Tibetan_Ice · March 1, 2013

hi TI,

remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like it so much.

i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation underlying all reality, and so on and so forth

what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo, but i didn't recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light,

At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and commentary. Thats just me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said that the book wasn't good.

anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga, with small but good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally private, so even when i do achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in the traditional way. Even when i talk privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama and other meditation teachers about things like that. But i digress

If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the words are just words to me (alas! lol)...

Hi Konchog

If Malcom said " i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, " then he is wrong.

Not only does clear light manifest into all things, the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are inseperable..

Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner..

Where exactly did he say that?

And then answer this question.. why do you think that Guru Yoga starts with the practice of visualizing the Guru in perfect detail, then visualizing the red/white/blue light emanating from the Guru to you, and then dissolving the Guru into you?

Why do you think that Max's Kunlun level 1 says to visualize yourself floating in a blue empty sky and then visualize, as you breathe in... and "make it real"?

The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights.

The reason for the visualizations is to start training in manifesting and dissolving the five lights. How else could you walk through solids, fly in the air, heat up the body etc? It is by realizing that we are creating the material plane through the mind, by manifesting the five lights/elements and by learning to play with them.

THE GREAT PERFECTION In the Bön tradition, the highest teaching is Dzogchen, the Great Perfection or Great Completion. Dzogchen teaches that the basis of the individual and of all phenomena is inseparable emptiness (tong pa nyid) and luminosity (‘ od sal).

...

Emptiness and luminosity are inseparable. Emptiness is luminous and luminosity is empty. In Dzogchen this fundamental reality is said to have a capacity or energy (tsal) expressed as the unceasing manifestation of phenomena— the endless arising and passing away of countless luminous worlds and beings— all essentially empty but existing as a passing play of light. Phenomena arise as a display of the basis of all (kunzhi), as the non-dual manifestation of empty luminosity.

...

As I stated earlier, Dzogchen teachings say that inseparable emptiness and luminosity is the true nature of all phenomena. In Dzogchen teachings, this fundamental reality is sometimes symbolized as a single sphere of pure light. It is single because it is non-dual. It is not single in opposition to something else. It has no boundaries or divisions, no inside or outside. Though it is non-dual, the elemental energies ceaselessly manifest in it. This is why it is often painted as a sphere of rainbow light made of the five elemental colors. Light is used as a symbol because it is the least substantial of all things that we can perceive through the senses. Also, the nature of mind is radiant and clear, like light. Like the light of a candle, awareness illuminates itself as well as whatever it touches. In Tibetan teachings, the word nang wa is often translated into English as “vision” or “appearance.” But it does not refer only to visual phenomena. In this case, “vision” actually means “experience” and includes what is seen through the physical eyes and the mind’s eye; what is heard, smelled, tasted, touched; what arises in mental experience; and what is imagined. These are all “visions” because they arise in the light of awareness, the light of pure presence. Although these are only words, they are close to describing the real experience. Luminosity means the “light” of awareness as well as all phenomena that arise in awareness, which without exception are also luminous.

The Six Lamps refers to the basis of all as well as five levels of manifest experience. The six divisions are called lamps because each refers to the same light in one of six different contexts.

The first lamp (gnas-pa gzhi-yi sgron-ma) The first lamp is the luminosity of the abiding base, the primordial non-dual presence. It is not personal, not individualized, not localized, not dualistic. It is the luminous aspect that, in inseparable unity with emptiness, is the basis of all experience. If the practitioner recognizes the first lamp— not intellectually but by abiding in innate non-dual awareness— then the basis of all is known in every experience and condition and in the other five lamps. The point of the first lamp is to recognize the light of kunzhi.

The second lamp (tsi-ta sha-yi sgron-ma) The second lamp is the “lamp of the flesh heart,” the lamp of the self-arising innate awareness, rigpa, in the dimension of the individual. It is personal only in the sense that it is the pure awareness underlying the moving mind and the sense of subjectivity. It is related to the dharmakaya. It is awareness localized as an individual experiencing. But it is not bound by any constricted identity, although through the delusions of the dualistic mind we have come to experience it as being bound. Although rigpa is not actually localized, many practitioners can most easily recognize it through a connection to the heart center. The Six Lamps specifically discusses this in terms of the space inside of the physical heart. Westerners often find this strange, but it’s similar to what we mean when we say that “in” each being is the nature of mind. The nature of mind is not individual and not localized. It is truer to say that we exist in the nature of mind than to say the nature of mind is in us. But in our experience it is easier to recognize the nature of mind if we go “in” to the deepest place in ourselves, the heart. This is why we say that the rigpa resides in the heart, and why the heart is the center of the life-force prana and why love is always connected to the heart. Thus we talk about the “light of the heart”. The point of the second lamp is to recognize the light of innate awareness within.

The third lamp (dkar-’ jam tsa-yi sgron-ma) The third lamp is the “lamp of the soft white channel.” It is rigpa and the prana of rigpa as it moves in the channels of the body, particularly the channel that connects the heart to the eyes. It is associated with the sambhogakaya. The third lamp is the rigpa as it pervades, as it seems to move from the heart center throughout experience. Rigpa is not a substance and does not move. Rigpa abides in the heart, unmoving like the dharmakaya, but here it seems to be moving. The movement in the third lamp is actually the liveliness of rigpa. It is the life-force prana. It is the wisdom of rigpa, which pervades everywhere. Although rigpa does not move, there is movement in rigpa and rigpa can be experienced in movement. The practitioner who is distracted from the nature of mind can seem to be far from rigpa but no one can ever be truly separated from his or her own nature. We find ourselves unable to recognize rigpa even though it is the awareness underneath the search, the searcher, and the not finding. Because we seem to lose connection to pure presence, we need to go back into ourselves, into the heart, into the center of experience. If the practitioner recognizes the essence in the first lamp or abides in rigpa in the second lamp, in the apparent movement of the third lamp he or she will continue to abide in pure presence and the movement will be integrated with the nature of mind. The point of the third lamp is to recognize the light of the penetrating wisdom as it moves through the channels.

The fourth lamp (rgyang-zhag chu-yi sgron-ma)

The fourth lamp is the “water lamp that lights the distance.” It is the innate awareness experienced through the senses, particularly the eye (the water lamp). The teaching relates the fourth lamp to the nirmanakaya. For the practitioner, this lamp is found in the first moment of sensory experience, before the conceptual mind shapes the raw sense data into apparent entities and things. For most beings identified with the moving mind, this first moment of experience is like a very brief moment of blankness. But for the practitioner who has been introduced to the nature of mind, the first moment of any experience allows direct recognition of the innate non-dual awareness of rigpa. The point of the fourth lamp is to see the light of naked awareness before experience is divided into particular forms or entities.

The fifth lamp (zhing khams ngo-sprod sgron-ma) The fifth lamp is the “lamp of introduction to the pure land.” It is the light of rigpa as it manifests as luminous, apparently external objects and visions. When the practitioner abides in the primordial awareness of the first lamp, the objects that arise to the senses remain pure and non-dual. This is known as “cutting doubt in the three bodies (kayas).” One of the symbols used in teaching Dzogchen is the hollow doll, an empty shell with holes in it where the senses would be in a person: eyes, ears, mouth, and nose. In a dark room, a lit candle is placed inside the doll. There is light in the center of the doll, light moving throughout the doll, and light illuminating what is external to the doll— it is all the same light. Like the explanation in The Six Lamps, this points to the luminosity of primordial awareness as it is recognized in different contexts. The light from inside the doll illuminates what is external to it. This is the opposite of the way we think in the West, where it is believed that the world comes into us through the senses. In the Tibetan tradition, it is believed that the awareness experiences through the senses. It is important to remember that what appears to be outside is actually phenomena arising in awareness. Experience is non-dual; subject and object arise together. They are divided into internal self and external object only conceptually— the light is not actually divided within or without. In reality both poles of duality are empty, luminous phenomena arising in the nature of mind. This is the point of the fifth lamp— that the light of naked non-dual awareness lies under the apparent division into subject and object.

The sixth lamp (bar-do dus-kyi sgron-ma) The sixth lamp is the lamp of the bardo, the intermediate state after death and before rebirth. The visions and experiences that arise in the bardo are karmically determined manifestations of our own minds, as are the experiences in this life. For the practitioner who recognizes their true nature, there is liberation. For the person who does not recognize the visions as self-arising, one vision eventually dominates and the individual is led to the realm and specific situation of his or her next rebirth in cyclic existence. The point of the sixth lamp is the recognition of the light of samsara and nirvana. The central teaching of The Six Lamps is that everything— every experience, every thought, every identity— is the manifestation of the pure, luminous basis of existence. One must recognize this and abide in the recognition.

Though The Six Lamps does not speak of five lights, the luminosity that it is describing is the five pure lights of the elements. This is what is to be understood, recognized, and lived in. The luminosity in the first lamp is unbound pure presence. The succeeding lamps are the fundamental pure presence abiding in the heart, arising as individual experience, operating in the senses, manifesting as phenomenal appearance, and finally appearing as the bardo visions. The light that illuminates and is each of these varied experiences is the same sacred light, the innate non-dual awareness. Dzogchen teachings say that all gross and subtle visions— whether the outer visions of mountains and buildings and so on or the internal visions that arise in meditation and spiritual practice— arise from the five pure lights. One needs support to experience the five pure lights internally, the support of practice and the teachings. Through the grosser external visions, one tries to experience the subtle. Through experience of the subtle vision, one tries to recognize the pure luminosity— the five pure lights— in all external visions.

For the practice of Dzogchen, one must learn to abide in the realization of the first lamp through all experience. We can meditate in a shrine room and have experiences of emptiness, clarity, and bliss. And then get up and walk to the store and become involved with someone and lose ourselves in the interaction. But the awareness underlying both the meditative experience and the distractions of our daily lives is what we must recognize and abide in. When we abide in rigpa, what we experience as external is less substantial. Our identities are less substantial. Our problems are less substantial. We experience rigpa everywhere; there is no difference between inside and outside the body. There is no difference between meditation and non-meditation. We experience rigpa through the senses. This is not done with the senses; what is experienced with the senses are the sense objects. Experiencing rigpa through the senses has nothing to do with sense objects; it is about connecting to the inner light— abiding in rigpa— and staying connected during sensual experiences. Dzogchen isn’t really about the personal. It is concerned with space and light, with emptiness and non-dual awareness, more than with the development of qualities. Dzogchen truly begins as a path when the first lamp is recognized, and it isn’t the property of Tibetans or Westerners, of humans or non-humans. What is realized is the nature of every being.

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2810-2823). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

TI

C T · March 1, 2013

Manifesting all these qualities are crucial on the training path.

Integrating/metabolizing the learned qualities are also very crucial.

Sometimes i forget that dissolving the manifested are equally vital.

I think a lot of practitioners concentrate highly on the manifesting and integrating aspects, and tend to ignore the dissolving practices, which will result in imbalances eventually.

The thing to bear in mind with adhering to these three 'steps' is to make it habitual, so that when death occurs, the sequence will arise spontaneously, and this can assist to allay all associated fears at that time so that death can be transitioned with as little obstacles as possible.

Before death occurs, check conduct. During dying phase, check conduct. After death, check conduct.

According to Vajrayana teachings, this should be at the heart of all practices -- hence, the advice that in all approaches in terms of one's daily practice and also in life, there ought to be a mindfulness that intentions must be good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end.

Dedications of merit before one ends formal sessions of meditative absorptions are very powerful and of immense benefit, for it seals the accumulated merit so that leaks do not occur. I think this is the one practice which sets the Vajrayana path apart from many others.

Reading the contributions here reminded me of the 3 goods... Arising, Abiding and Cessation.

The tendency to be 'caught in the self' can be avoided as one begins to become more and more conscious of this useful practice tool.

RongzomFan · March 1, 2013

Reading the contributions here reminded me of the 3 goods... Arising, Abiding and Cessation.

Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation.

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

There is no arising in Dzogchen either. Instead we have the 3 inseperable wisdoms.

Edited March 1, 2013 by alwayson

C T · March 2, 2013

Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation.

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

There is no arising in Dzogchen either. Instead we have the 3 inseperable wisdoms.

About practice, which my post was referring to, Longchenpa said:

"Begin with bodhicitta, do the main practice without concepts,

conclude by dedicating the merit. These, together and complete,

are the three vital supports for progressing on the path to liberation."

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/khenpo-shenga/three-noble-principles

stefos · March 2, 2013

My God Stefos, you are just all over the place, aren't you?

I did read some J Krishnamurti, and then I read some U G Krishnamurti ( a while ago), just so I didn't confuse the two..

I wondered who pee-ed in U G's cornflakes..

Instead of giving advice, I would be more interested in hearing about your regular practices (or non-practices) and experiences.

Thanks for posting the auric sight experience in the occult thread. Although it was an elementary experience, the important part of it was that by resting your head on your hands and gazing upwards like you did, you tied into the secret kati channel from the heart to the head. The purple and green lights were part of that heart-consciousness manifestation.

TI

Hi TI,

My Dzogchen transmission is from the Buddhist side: Guru Namkhai Norbu...my sweet root teacher!

BTW sir you misunderstood what I posted!

Here's what happened, put succinctly:

I played the bowl, placed it on it's stand, walked over to the owner of the store who was opposite me and then I just rested my forearms (bony side) on the counter and just relaxed. I didn't hold my head with my hands.....I then saw what looked like a veil lift from over my 2 eyes and I saw 2 bands of color near her ribcage (pastel green then outside of that pastel purple with black mixed in....not balls of light!!) lol

So, There it is.

Stefos

P.S. The Bardo Thodol mentions combining Mahamudra & Dzogchen.....Since I have Dzogchen transmission I desire to mix it with Mahamudra as well. I actually found a Mahamudra teacher in Boston when I went into a metaphysical bookstore.

Mixy Mixy time!!!!!!!!

Edited March 2, 2013 by stefos

Tibetan_Ice · March 2, 2013

Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation.

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

There is no arising in Dzogchen either. Instead we have the 3 inseperable wisdoms.

Hi Alwaysoff,

Again you leave me with the task of clarifying your brutally pithy statements, realizing their context and then dismissing them as incorrect and totally misconstrued.

Let's take your first statement.

"Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation"

The 'thing' that does not arise nor pass is the primordial base of rigpa. All else arises and passes. Thoughts arise and pass, objects arise and pass, in fact everything including the world/universe arises and passes.

The primordial base is that from which all phenomenon arise from and pass into. That is the only thing that is beyond arising and passing.

You said:

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

This statement, which is no doubt a support for dependant origination is not referring to the that which arises and passes from mother rigpa. The true meaning of that statement is that, because there is no intrinsic existence due to dependant origination, all that is derived or manifested from this lack of intrinsic existence is also non-existant. It is a top-down statment, and one which should not be taken out of context because, as you have used it here, it would make no sense to the common reader or the conceptual mind.

On the conceptual level, we can clearly see that the world manifests, endures and then dissolves. This is the impermanence that most Buddhist manuals teach. If you wish to put your quotes in proper context, be my guest. From my point of view, we can examine the Clear Light without establish which Buddhist views related to dependant origination are 'superior'. As a matter of fact, we can dispense with this form of elitism as they are only candy for the conceptual mind and the ego.

But what is your understanding of the "Clear Light"? (to get back to the topic in this thread)

In another thread you said:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25981-dzogchen-and-daoism/?p=387903

Dzogchen Upadesha : Nonarising/illusion since the five pure lights never display as anything other than the five pure lights.

Your belief is at odd with other respectible Bon/Dzogchen Teachers/practioners. It appears as though you've totally missed it.

From the five pure lights of the natural mind arise The unchanging dimension of the body, The unceasing pure manifestation of speech, And the undiluted enlightened mind.

The Clear Light

The pure state of the mind, the base of Buddhahood, has a quality of clear light, which develops into the pure light of the natural state. This light is "rainbow light," not material light. It is the natural energy of the primordial state and the cause of samsara and nirvana. Through the movement of this pure light, which is the inner rigpa energy in the dimension of the primordial base, the five pure lights develop and begin to appear. This process is represented by the five-colored tigle that surrounds the white A and which symbolizes the primordial natural condition.

The pure lights of the five colors constitute the second step in the production of existence; they are the source of the five elements that are the underlying structure of both the external existence of the world and the internal existence of the individual. In seeing these, we perceive the elements in their gross form, but in reality the source of the elements is the pure light of the natural state.

The energy of the five pure lights arises in the primordial base and creates and gives substance to internal and external reality. In the mandala of the human body, this clear light energy resides in the heart, rises through the channels, and is projected through the eyes. It is the basis of all vision and moves from the inner to the outer dimension. According to the traditional explanation, external existence is constituted by the world in its function of outer mandala or "container" of the individual. The internal existence of the self or individual is divided into internal, external, and secret. The external existence of the individual consists of the five sense objects perceived by the five sense consciousnesses. Internal existence is the sixth sense consciousness, the mind, together with proprioception or the inner consciousness of the body. Secret existence is the movement of thoughts. In the last analysis, the division of existence into internal and external is based on a false view formed by the conceptual mind regarding the dualistic condition. In the true condition there is no distinction between internal and external since the same empty space gives rise to internal and external existence alike, just as the air inside and outside a jar is the same.

Development of the Five Lights

The five lights can develop in two ways, depending on whether or not one is present in awareness in the primordial state. If there is understanding, the five pure lights give rise to the five pure visions, and wisdom begins to develop the pure body. In this way, the five pure lights give rise to the five pure elements, which give rise to the five internal elements, then successively to the five external elements, the five sense consciousnesses, the five sense organs, the five sense objects, the five bodies, and the five wisdoms. This process leads to nirvana or final, total realization. But if there is distraction and lack of understanding, the five pure lights become gross and start to transform into the five coarse elements, then successively into the five impure organs, five deluded sense consciousnesses, the five deluded sense organs and so on, finally giving rise to the five poisons or five passions, the five negative actions, and the illnesses derived from these. Each passion is connected with the light of a particular color and element. This is the process of continuous transmigration in samsara.

Tenzin Wangyal. Wonders Of The Natural Mind: The Essense Of Dzogchen In The Native Bon Tradition Of Tibet (Kindle Locations 1443-1456). Kindle Edition.

So, we see that the five lights do display as something other than just the pure lights. And, we also see that the five lights arise, and that they can be developed. Further, they are the source of both nirvana and samsara.

And in this quote, we also see, from a different source, that the five lights manifest visions:

By continuing to practice, the absolute space and awareness are separated from the point between the eyebrows [they become separated from sensory phenomena"], and the lamp of the empty bindus effortlessly arises and approaches. The bindus turn into the size of peas, and awareness proceeds like a bird that is just able to fly. By continuing to practice, visions of the five lights transform so that they appear in a fragmented fashion, vertically, horizontally, like spear-points, similar in aspect to [holes in] a black yak-hair tent, and like the squares of a chess board; and those lights pervade everything in front of you. Moreover, the bindus also transform so that they are like a mirror, and awareness appears in the manner of a running deer. By continuing to practice, visions of the absolute space appear in the aspects of a jewel lattice, [725] lattices and half-lattices of light, checkered, radiant, like spear-points, and a multilayered stupa, a thousand-petaled lotus, a halo, the sun and moon, a castle, a sword, [a vajra,]' a wheel, and like the shape of a fisheye. Moreover, that light fills the environment in which you live. The bindus become like brass bowls, and your awareness becomes like a bee hovering over nectar.

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2271-2278). Kindle Edition.

If you wish to defend your statements, please quote viable references and support your statements with the scholarly standards taught in most colleges and universities, as you so often pretend to adhere to.

TI

Tibetan_Ice · March 2, 2013

Hi TI,

My Dzogchen transmission is from the Buddhist side: Guru Namkhai Norbu...my sweet root teacher!

BTW sir you misunderstood what I posted!

Here's what happened, put succinctly:

I played the bowl, placed it on it's stand, walked over to the owner of the store who was opposite me and then I just rested my forearms (bony side) on the counter and just relaxed. I didn't hold my head with my hands.....I then saw what looked like a veil lift from over my 2 eyes and I saw 2 bands of color near her ribcage (pastel green then outside of that pastel purple with black mixed in....not balls of light!!) lol

So, There it is.

Stefos

P.S. The Bardo Thodol mentions combining Mahamudra & Dzogchen.....Since I have Dzogchen transmission I desire to mix it with Mahamudra as well. I actually found a Mahamudra teacher in Boston when I went into a metaphysical bookstore.

Mixy Mixy time!!!!!!!!

Hi Stefos,

You are right. I assumed that you had bent your neck in some way and were gazing upwards. But the purple and green lights are a dead giveaway.

When you received the transmission from C N Norbu, did you experience anything? What was it like? Or are you now bound to secrecy, forever unable to share your experiences from such a reknown guru?

TI

konchog uma · March 4, 2013

Hi Konchog

If Malcom said " i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, " then he is wrong.

Not only does clear light manifest into all things, the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are inseperable..

Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner..

Where exactly did he say that?

And then answer this question.. why do you think that Guru Yoga starts with the practice of visualizing the Guru in perfect detail, then visualizing the red/white/blue light emanating from the Guru to you, and then dissolving the Guru into you?

Why do you think that Max's Kunlun level 1 says to visualize yourself floating in a blue empty sky and then visualize, as you breathe in... and "make it real"?

The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights.

The reason for the visualizations is to start training in manifesting and dissolving the five lights. How else could you walk through solids, fly in the air, heat up the body etc? It is by realizing that we are creating the material plane through the mind, by manifesting the five lights/elements and by learning to play with them.

TI

"'od gsal, or luminosity, is experienced by everyone as they go to sleep. It has nothing to do with visions of light."

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=278&p=1692&hilit=clear+light+visions+of+light#p1692

i dont know why that style of guru yoga uses red white and blue lights. that is what i am trying to convey here: i dont know enough to get into a conversation about clear light, and if i did, i probably wouldn't anyway. just sayin

Simple_Jack · March 4, 2013

As you progress, you see the light, brighter than anything. That is the manifestation of the child clear light or child rigpa (according to this book). It manifests into several different spectacles. But if you grasp at them, if you think about them, they dull out. This is training is watching and not thinking about what you are seeing.

Then, once you are well established in child clear light, it breaks through and joins mother clear, mother rigpa, enlightenment.

When the reflection of the child clear light manifests, it is very bright.. I haven't broken through to mother clear light yet, but when I do I will let you know.

The "clear light," is not any kind of experiential state of light http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=278&hilit=clear+light+visions+of+light&start=20:

It is a very important point to remember that the clarity factor is just an abbreviation for the luminosity factor, and to understand that these words are metaphors for knowing and do not mean that there is some kind of light that you are making with your mind. There is nothing constructed about the luminosity; it is the innate knower that comes forth automatically simply because it is there.

Some people become confused over this word luminosity and its abbreviation, clarity. Too many people think that it means there is some kind of light. In Sanskrit and Tibetan, the word clarity is an abbreviation of the word luminosity. Clarity in this case actually means that something has become evident because of light. The function of luminosity is that it illuminates something and makes it visible or knowable.

Clarity is just an abbreviation of that meaning. This was a word that The Buddha used specifically to mean the knowing quality of the mind; mind illuminates and hence knows. The word means illumination but is a metaphor for the knowing quality of mind.

If we talk about either luminosity or clarity as a factor of the essence of mind, it only means that the essence of mind has the quality of illuminating and knowing whatever it knows.

The word “luminosity” has been translated as “clear light” by some translators but that is a very bad and very mistaken translation which causes many problems. When I was in France one time, a man come to me and he said, “I’ve been practicing Secret Mantra Vehicle very hard for a long time.” He had heard these words “clear light” and assumed that that was the goal. He said to me, “I experienced this massive light, and I’ve realized it. I’ve got it. I realized the clear light be- cause I have this massive light going on.” Unfortunately, he had gone in a totally wrong direction because of the mistranslation.

- Mingyur Rinpoche, Meditator's Guide to the Great Completion

The "child clear light," represents the "clear light of the path." The "mother clear light," represents the fruition (aka. Buddhahood) that is inseparable from the ground/base. This is why there is the explanation of the ground/base, path and fruition rigpa.

Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner..

The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights.

Malcolm was once asked to be a teacher of Dzogchen by Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, but declined for whatever reason (http://thetaobums.com/topic/25953-breath-meditation-experience/?p=388431.) IRL, a scholar-practitioner doesn't have to be a contradiction.

With avidya the 5 pure lights manifest as the 5 elements. With vidya they are the 5 pure lights, which are not posited as real in Dzogchen (the 5 lights itself are unestablished in Dzogchen.)

I personally think you should find an authentic teacher to help you properly understand the teachings of Dzogchen and for general guidance in the path. In the meantime, you can ask the folks over on vajracakra on all things Vajrayana related. There are certain practitioners who post on there who have the knowledge and experience from years of practice. You can ask about general things related to Dzogchen without the worry of breaking any samaya.

Simple_Jack · March 4, 2013

Hi,

Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature" through a master.

Verbally explaining it won't do it.

It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food!

Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness, most of us were not....lol

Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked Awareness." Krishnamurti said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he himself taught on & about Choiceless Awareness quite a lot.

Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working with the subtle energy system or "voice."

Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but

how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the verbatim words of a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it.

Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of!

Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know.

Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications.

http://www.atikosha.org/:

Rig pa
The most important word in the intimate instruction section (man ngag sde) of the teaching of the great perfection is "rig pa". It is a word that has no effective equivalence in English, and within the last few years many translators have ceased to try and translate it at all when it is used as a noun in great perfection teachings and not as a verb (where it means "to know").

Today while translating a section from the Self-originated Self-arisen Original Purity revelations of Rigzin Godem (1337-1409), I came across a definition given by Padmasambhava that I feel is instructive for those with some doubts as to what "rig pa" is. He states:

“Rig pa” does not follow delusion after deluded appearances are consciously known (shes par rig) to be false

The operative term here is "consciously known" or "shes par rig". Rig pa is in fact a specific type of knowledge. Nevertheless, the word "knowledge", like the word "awareness", is a word too fraught with other connotations to be used to accurately translate the term "rig pa" in this context.

These days there is a real danger of people conflating Dzogchen teachings with the teachings of other so-called "non-dual" traditions such as Advaita, Kashmir Shaivism and so on. It is important to understand that "rig pa" is not some sort of over-arching uber-consciousness like the cit of sat cit ananda in Vedantic teachings.

Instead, rigpa is just the accurate knowledge of our own state, that deepens as we become more accustomed to the Dzogchen view.

Rigpa II
One can have many misunderstandings about rigpa. For example, on the internet the other day, I saw a definition of rigpa that is very strange indeed:

I'm defining rigpa as consciousness without dualistic thought.

This sort of idea is very prevalent among those with no training in Dzogchen, in the "tradition" of those who conflate the so-called non-dualist traditions together, based on mere reading of texts in translation.

Now, depending on whether this consciousness without dualistic thought is defined as fundamental and over-arching, or unique and personal, we have the distinction between Hindu Vedanta and the mind-only position of Indian Buddhist Cittamatrins. It could even be the svasamvedana of the Buddhist logicians, the non-conceptual self-knowing mind.

Such definitions of vidyā above bear no resemblance to the definitions of vidyā stated by Indian masters such as Vimalamitra. He defines vidyā very simply:

...a

cute because of moving, subtle, and apparent, vidyā is knowing, clear and unchanging

Further, in another text Vimalamitra writes:

The nature of the mind is not free from traces, so it is called “mind”. That knowledge of the dharmakāya as empty is called “vidyā". That also gives rise to recognition of great clear emptiness. Remaining in that stage is called “wisdom”. Remaining without concepts, free from the errors of lethargy, agitation and so on, is called “dharmakāya”.

Reflect on these five sentences. By reflecting on them, one will have a clearer idea of what one's vidyā is.

From the comments to this entry:

Hi Argenteaum:

I have not read Tony Duff's book.

There are a number of terms better back-translated into Sanskrit.

Rig pa (vidyā) is one of the them, hence vidyā. Vidyā (knowledge) is the opposite of avidyā (ignorance). However, in the context of Dzogchen texts, rig pa is not generally to be understood as "vedana" as in svasamvedana.

Svasamvedana (rang rig) is the reflexive knower of the Buddhist logic. That is not what rang rig means in Dzogchen -- here rang rig is not instrumental i.e. it is not rang gis rig pa. In Dzogchen it is rather rang gi rig pa, meaning one's knowledge and so on....

This person has confused the Trika non-dual view with Dzogchen.

The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara.

All conditioned phenomena are a product of ignorance, according to Dzogchen view, and so therefore, everything is not real. The basis of that ignorance is the basis, which is also not established as real.

In Dzogchen, everything is unreal, from top to bottom. The basis, in Dzogchen, is described as being "empty not established in any way at all". If the basis is not real, then whatever arises from that basis is not real.

In Dzoghen, dependent origination begins from the non-recognition of the state of the basis, when this happens, one enters into grasping self and other, and then the chain of dependent origination begins.

Simple_Jack · March 4, 2013

With avidya the 5 pure lights manifest as the 5 elements. With vidya they are the 5 pure lights, which are not posited as real in Dzogchen (the 5 lights itself are unestablished in Dzogchen.)

Some archived posts of Malcolms:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Namdrol

Loppon Namdrol (Malcolm Smith):

There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."

Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.

Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.

Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:

I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers,

the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination --

not ceasing, not arising

not annihilated, not permanent,

not going, not coming,

not diverse, not single,

was taught as peace

in order to pacify proliferation.

Loppon Namdrol (Malcolm Smith):

"The colors which the five lights express arise because of the adulteration of the five wisdoms with karmic winds or vāyus, without which the five wisdoms have no manifest expression. At the gross level, these five lights are expressed though delusion as the five elements."

"When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to act wisely, to cherish this beautiful planet we live on and all the richness of life, the plants, the animals, the rocks, minerals, oceans, mountains, rivers, and lakes it offers us.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our own state through personal experience the universe and all the beings in it are revealed as an astonishing panoply of spheres of light and color, sound, lights and rays that has no boundary nor center."

Thusness: "Innerly nothing and outwardly empty, then all appearances are simply sound, lights, colours and rays."

Tibetan_Ice · March 4, 2013

The "clear light," is not any kind of experiential state of light http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=278&hilit=clear+light+visions+of+light&start=20:

The "child clear light," represents the "clear light of the path." The "mother clear light," represents the fruition (aka. Buddhahood) that is inseparable from the ground/base. This is why there is the explanation of the ground/base, path and fruition rigpa.

Malcolm was once asked to be a teacher of Dzogchen by Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, but declined for whatever reason (http://thetaobums.com/topic/25953-breath-meditation-experience/?p=388431.) IRL, a scholar-practitioner doesn't have to be a contradiction.

With avidya the 5 pure lights manifest as the 5 elements. With vidya they are the 5 pure lights, which are not posited as real in Dzogchen (the 5 lights itself are unestablished in Dzogchen.)

I personally think you should find an authentic teacher to help you properly understand the teachings of Dzogchen and for general guidance in the path. In the meantime, you can ask the folks over on vajracakra on all things Vajrayana related. There are certain practitioners who post on there who have the knowledge and experience from years of practice. You can ask about general things related to Dzogchen without the worry of breaking any samaya.

<snip>

The link that you pasted to vajracakra is for members only. I have no intention of joining because they require your personal email address in order to join. I see they removed the requirement that you divulge your personal name, but still, identity is something to keep secret and share only with people I trust. Perhaps if they gave me their personal email addresses, I might consider it.

You obviously did not read the cut and pastes that I put in this thread at the beginning. Nor does it seem that you have a practical experience of clear light. For, if you had, you wouldn't have cut-and-pasted that horrendous quote by Mingyur Rinpoche, and the rest of your quotes.

It is a very important point to remember that the clarity factor is just an abbreviation for the luminosity factor, and to understand that these words are metaphors for knowing and do not mean that there is some kind of light that you are making with your mind. There is nothing constructed about the luminosity; it is the innate knower that comes forth automatically simply because it is there.

Some people become confused over this word luminosity and its abbreviation, clarity. Too many people think that it means there is some kind of light. In Sanskrit and Tibetan, the word clarity is an abbreviation of the word luminosity. Clarity in this case actually means that something has become evident because of light. The function of luminosity is that it illuminates something and makes it visible or knowable.

Clarity is just an abbreviation of that meaning. This was a word that The Buddha used specifically to mean the knowing quality of the mind; mind illuminates and hence knows. The word means illumination but is a metaphor for the knowing quality of mind.

If we talk about either luminosity or clarity as a factor of the essence of mind, it only means that the essence of mind has the quality of illuminating and knowing whatever it knows.

The word “luminosity” has been translated as “clear light” by some translators but that is a very bad and very mistaken translation which causes many problems. When I was in France one time, a man come to me and he said, “I’ve been practicing Secret Mantra Vehicle very hard for a long time.” He had heard these words “clear light” and assumed that that was the goal. He said to me, “I experienced this massive light, and I’ve realized it. I’ve got it. I realized the clear light be- cause I have this massive light going on.” Unfortunately, he had gone in a totally wrong direction because of the mistranslation.

- Mingyur Rinpoche, Meditator's Guide to the Great Completion

First off, the luminosity of Sambogakaya and the Dharmakaya are inseperable. Mingyur is correct in stating that the mind does not create "some kind of light". The luminescence is self-rising, from the dharmadatu, and from the substrate consciousness.

Secondly, Vividness, Clarity, brilliance, illumination are not metaphors for clear light as Mingyur suggests. Well, kind of but you cannot separate the knowing part from the illumination part. In order to know, it must be 'seen'. All that is knowable is illuminated. Self luminous. You should have known this had you closely examined your thoughts and traced them back to the knower. The part that grasps can only grasp onto something that is seen. At that super fine level of examination, all thoughts/forms/manifestions are self-luminous.

If Clarity is a metaphor for Knowing then Rainbow Body would never be seen.

If illumination is a metaphor for Knowing then thoughts would never appear if they weren't luminescent.

Knowing and illumination are the same. They are light, a manifestation of the innate clear light.

And, then, his poor example of an ignorant student who thinks that clear light is white light and doesn't realize that clear light can manifest as white light does indeed show the dangers or stupidity of not understanding the relationship between clear light and the five impure lights of samsara.

I cannot believe that Mingyur is calling the luminescence of the sambhogakaya a simple metaphor.

I prefer this definition:

If rigpa is to be defined at all, it is as brilliant radiance, as a constant experience of pure pleasure, as lightness and clarity, as the soft silence in every moment. The apposite English equivalent has yet to emerge, so here in this work we have retained the Tibetan term rigpa itself.

As praxis, The Treasury of Natural Perfection may be understood as a transmission of the realization of all phenomena, all experience, as light, light being the common factor of cognition and the intrinsic spaciousness of experience. The three words “brilliance,” “radiance,” and “clarity” have been used as synonyms of “light.” Emptiness is the essence of things, light is their nature and compassion is the medium of indeterminate manifestation. Rest in the nature of being and we understand ourselves as beings of empty light in which the three existential dimensions or buddha-bodies manifest spontaneously as a unitary envisionment of rigpa, of outside and inside, a momentary luminous gestalt. The totality of this envisionment is light. The Newtonian universe of matter and energy is light. We know it through the light of the mind—our prosaic everyday experience is light— and insofar as the field of light is unitary, complete and all-inclusive, it is natural perfection. We know it through its absence, openness, spontaneity, and unity.

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 455-465). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

Next you say:

With avidya the 5 pure lights manifest as the 5 elements. With vidya they are the 5 pure lights, which are not posited as real in Dzogchen (the 5 lights itself are unestablished in Dzogchen.)

Vidya doesn't appear to be related to the 5 lights which manifest as either pure or impure.. Instead, it refers to the five skhandas..

The initial point, then, is an experience of space belonging to no one. In fact, one may call it “experience” only in a metaphorical sense, because it precedes the arising of the media of samsaric cognition, namely the five skandhas. This is, in Trungpa Rinpoche’s words, “primordial intelligence connected with space and openness” that is within us, without beginning or end. “There is always primordial intelligence connected with the space and openness. Vidya means ‘intelligence’ in Sanskrit—precision, sharpness, sharpness with space, sharpness with room in which to put things, exchange things.” Trungpa Rinpoche describes the arising of ego from this primordial openness: It is like a spacious hall where there is room to dance about, where there is no danger of knocking things over or tripping over things, for there is completely open space. We are this space, we are one with it, with vidya, intelligence and openness.

Ray, Reginald A. (2012-12-18). Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet (Kindle Locations 4073-4080). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

Further, you say that in Dzogchen, the five lights are undifferentiated. ?

Here is what Tenzin Wangyal says about it:

Two Dzogchen Teachings on the Five Lights

In the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud there are two teachings, about the five pure

lights which approach them in slightly different ways. One is found in the "Union of the Four Chakras" and the other in the "Mirror of the Luminous Mind."

...

The Mirror of the Luminous Mind

When Nangzher Lodpo asked Tapihritsa about the cause of samsara and nirvana, Tapihritsa answered, "The cause of samsara and nirvana is the great base (or primordial state)." The Mirror of Luminous Mind, which also explains how to remain in the state of contemplation, is the continuation of Tapihritsa's answer:

From the energy (gdangs) of the emptiness of the primordial state arises the presence or clarity (gsal ha) that gives rise to the five lights.

If the nature of the five lights is perceived in pure perception, they give rise to the five pure elements and the process culminating in nirvana takes place. In the case of the production of samsara, through delusion we do not understand the elements as manifestations of the pure lights of our primordial state, and we perceive them impurely as external and imperfect. The difference between nirvana and samsara, between liberation and illusion, lies precisely in the difference between understanding and delusion, between the presence or absence of the realization of our true condition.

The text gives a detailed explanation of how the movement of the radiant energy arouses the karmic prana of movement, giving rise to the consciousness of the conceptual mind. The "prana of increase" and the "prana of churning" produce the "sound like light" that is the base of the three great visions. When there is misunderstanding of the origin of the five pure lights, they materialize through these movements into the five gross elements and become the cause of all our defilements, the five passions, the five illnesses, and so forth.

The five pure lights are connected with the five passions. When there is delusion regarding the lights, they manifest as the five passions instead of the five wisdoms. The white light is connected with anger, the green light with pride, the red light with desire, the blue light with jealousy, and the yellow light with ignorance. The inner element corresponding to the white light is the mind (or bone); the breath corresponds with the green light; the body heat with the red light; the blood with the blue light; the flesh of the body with the yellow light.

Tenzin Wangyal. Wonders Of The Natural Mind: The Essense Of Dzogchen In The Native Bon Tradition Of Tibet (Kindle Locations 1540-1546). Kindle Edition.

If the five lights are undifferentiated, what then is Tenzin talking about?

If Dzogchen produces the rainbow body, and Tenzin is saying that the five lights dissolve back into "light", why are you not getting this?

When the air element rolls back into the space element, the head chakra dissolves and we see a flashing green light. The mind sense consciousness dissolves into the kunzhi base consciousness when the breath stops. The dissolution of the physical body sense consciousness of a great Dzogchen practitioner into the kunzhi produces the rainbow body when the elements progressively roll back into each other and finally dissolve into their essential nature, which is light. The dissolution of the sense consciousness leaves behind the hair and nails, which are the impurities of the body.

Tenzin Wangyal. Wonders Of The Natural Mind: The Essense Of Dzogchen In The Native Bon Tradition Of Tibet (Kindle Locations 1897-1901). Kindle Edition.

Light is not a metaphor.

Futher, I understand that in the strictest sense, the term "Clarity" refers to the knowing aspect of emptiness, but that knowing has a "Vivid" essence, which can be 'seen'. Here is one reference to someone who uses the term "Clarity" in the strictest sense, but then differentiates the terms by explaining "Vividness".

When we say “clear,” this is like the clear aspect of the mind. When we talk about it being clear or luminous, sometimes we understand that as meaning some sort of a light—a blazingly bright light. But that is not what this means. It means that it can know and understand. It does not stop. We do not turn into some sort of rock. That is not what happens: there is the clear, knowing aspect of the mind. It is also expansive, which means here that the clarity is vast: we can see and know many things. Then the text says “vivid and naked.” “Vivid” means that it is as if we are actually seeing—it is right there and we are really seeing it. There is no doubt whether or not this is it—it is just right there. It is naked: we are not thinking about it with logic or seeing it from far away; it is right here. There is no veil or anything covering it at all. This is what we rest in; this is the nature of the mind.

Thrangu Rinpoche, Khenchen (2011-01-11). Vivid Awareness: The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar (Kindle Locations 2174-2180). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

TI

Edited March 5, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

stefos · March 4, 2013

Hi Stefos,

You are right. I assumed that you had bent your neck in some way and were gazing upwards. But the purple and green lights are a dead giveaway.

When you received the transmission from C N Norbu, did you experience anything? What was it like? Or are you now bound to secrecy, forever unable to share your experiences from such a reknown guru?

TI

Hi TI,

No sir....Again it was NOT lights that I saw but 1 foot long ruler like BANDS OF COLOR...not balls of color like thigles.

According to occulists, particularly Theosophy/Anthroposophy I saw the emotional body or parts of it or something!

This was before my Dzogchen transmission!!! It had nothing to do with Dzogchen as before this event I had practiced mindfulness of breathing and visualizing the chakras from muladhara to sahasrara opening via various colored lights entering them.......

Regarding my Dzogchen transmission:

Nothing prohibits me from mentioning it:

I've had transmission a number of times from Guru Norbu:

1ce on Guru Padmasambhava's anniversary

1ce on Adzom Drugpa's anniversary

2x's on Guru Garab Dorje's anniversary

Guru Norbu "introduced" me to the primordial state!

See, I talked about it without breaking my samaya.......Samaya DOES come with transmission sir!

So I cannot talk about it other than to say: YOU must experience it not talk about it.

Remember logical conceptualization fails after a point.

In Dzogchen, transmission is necessary but as Guru Norbu pointed out, some people already are functioning in the state of presence without transmission.

Look sir, I'm blessed!

Most people, I think, not trying to be a showoff or proud, don't even have a fraction of the spiritual blessings I've received from God & Guru as well. This is why I kind of go nuts on these forums! I've seen SOME STUFF man.

I'm thankful! Really...you don't understand.

Stefos

P.S. A private message is coming to you...Read it bro!

Tibetan_Ice · March 4, 2013

Hi TI,

No sir....Again it was NOT lights that I saw but 1 foot long ruler like BANDS OF COLOR...not balls of color like thigles.

According to occulists, particularly Theosophy/Anthroposophy I saw the emotional body or parts of it or something!

This was before my Dzogchen transmission!!! It had nothing to do with Dzogchen as before this event I had practiced mindfulness of breathing and visualizing the chakras from muladhara to sahasrara opening via various colored lights entering them.......

Regarding my Dzogchen transmission:

Nothing prohibits me from mentioning it:

I've had transmission a number of times from Guru Norbu:

1ce on Guru Padmasambhava's anniversary

1ce on Adzom Drugpa's anniversary

2x's on Guru Garab Dorje's anniversary

Guru Norbu "introduced" me to the primordial state!

See, I talked about it without breaking my samaya.......Samaya DOES come with transmission sir!

So I cannot talk about it other than to say: YOU must experience it not talk about it.

Remember logical conceptualization fails after a point.

In Dzogchen, transmission is necessary but as Guru Norbu pointed out, some people already are functioning in the state of presence without transmission.

Look sir, I'm blessed!

Most people, I think, not trying to be a showoff or proud, don't even have a fraction of the spiritual blessings I've received from God & Guru as well. This is why I kind of go nuts on these forums! I've seen SOME STUFF man.

I'm thankful! Really...you don't understand.

Stefos

P.S. A private message is coming to you...Read it bro!

Hi Stephos,

Did you receive your transmissions in person or over the web/skype?

TI

Tibetan_Ice · March 5, 2013

"'od gsal, or luminosity, is experienced by everyone as they go to sleep. It has nothing to do with visions of light."

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=278&p=1692&hilit=clear+light+visions+of+light#p1692

i dont know why that style of guru yoga uses red white and blue lights. that is what i am trying to convey here: i dont know enough to get into a conversation about clear light, and if i did, i probably wouldn't anyway. just sayin

Hi Konchog

The first time I heard of this was in a meditation of the Diamond Way Buddhists.. It was a guided meditation at a seminar.

I also found this on it:

http://buddha.nimmersoft.dk/guruyogameditation.htm

Blessing Phase - Body
A strong clear light radiates from between Karmapa's eyebrows and enters the same place in our forehead. Our head is filled with powerful clear light. The light dissolves all disturbing impressions in brain, nerves and senses. All causes and imprints of harmful actions disappear and our body relaxes. It becomes a conscious tool for protecting and helping others. We retain the clear light for as long as we wish and experience the inner vibration of the syllable OM.
Blessing Phase - Speech
Emanating from Karmapa's throat, a radiant beam of red light streams out. It enters our mouth and throat and dissolves all difficulties in our speech. All impressions of harmful and confused words disappear and we become conscious of our speech. It is now compassion and wisdom, a powerful tool for benefiting others. Along with the red light, we retain the deep vibration of the syllable AH.
Blessing Phase - Mind
From the heart level in the centre of Karmapa's transparent body, an intense blue light shines out. It fills the middle of our chest. Everything harmful now leaves our mind. Disturbing feelings and stiff ideas dissolve and our mind becomes spontaneous joy. It is space and bliss inseparable. Together with the deep blue light vibrates the syllable HUNG.
Great Seal transmission
Now, all three lights enter us at the same time. Clear light fills our head, red light our throat and blue light our heart center. Thus we obtain the essential state of the Great Seal.

While receiving the lights, we may use the mantra KARMAPA CHENNO. It means power of all Buddhas work through us. We repeat it loudly or inwardly.

But, I also found this technique which uses the white, red and blue in a Dzogchen book..

Now imagine a white Om on the crown of your head, a red Ah at your throat, and a blue Hum at your heart. Imagine the blessings of the body, speech, and mind of all the Buddhas dissolving into them, igniting them with the five-colored flame of primordial wisdom. The six channel centers in the body incinerate the abodes of the six types of existence together with their seed syllables. Imagine the domains of the six types of existence to be empty. Chant in unison "Om Ah Hum" once.

Karma Chagme. A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Atiyoga (Kindle Locations 2274-2277). Kindle Edition.

TI

Jax · March 11, 2013

Hi Konchog,

Yes, I will take you up on that discussion about clear light.

You see, even though you were underwhelmed with rest of the book, I kept reading it and I'm in love with this book now.

The concepts in this book resonate very deeply with the rest of what I've been learning and experiencing. As you sit, with neither grasping nor averting, letting be, making no effort to 'do' anything but watch, and not become attached to what you see or think about it, the veils drop away, everything you see becomes brighter and brighter until it just radiates. As you progress, you see the light, brighter than anything. That is the manifestation of the child clear light or child rigpa (according to this book). It manifests into several different spectacles. But if you grasp at them, if you think about them, they dull out. This is training is watching and not thinking about what you are seeing.

Then, once you are well established in child clear light, it breaks through and joins mother clear, mother rigpa, enlightenment.

That book mentions the five lights of primordial wisdom, the five elements, the Bon teachings. How the clear light manifests into the five lights, and depending on how they are percieved, they are either the five primordial wisdoms or the five manifestations of samsara.

The theme that samsara and nirvana are just two sides of the same coin is also present in this book. And, you also find the disregard of ethics, or good and bad, and other forms of dualistic grasping.

I don't think you read the book. I think you abandoned it after a while and didn't finish it. For, if you had, I think you would have understood what clear light is. The fourth Vajra verse describes it so wonderfully, I don't see how anyone could have missed it, or not understood it.

And, I was also quite suprised when the book mentioned that breath meditation is an opportunity to buddhahood:

Notice, he says "without deliberate effort". Breath meditation is a way to practice "neither grasping nor averting, resting in the natural state".

But, on the topic of clear light. Clear light is the source of samsara and nirvana. It is that which is inextricably mixed into the dharmakaya. It's brilliance and shine reveals itself the more you still the mind, let go, neither grasp nor avert.. The book calls it non-meditation..

This has been my experience. As I progress in watching the breath, I'm getting better at not consciously controlling the breathing. As I progress, the thoughts and images appear crystal clear and very luminous, bright, shiny and radiant. Vivid. When the reflection of the child clear light manifests, it is very bright.. I haven't broken through to mother clear light yet, but when I do I will let you know.

Here are some quotes from that book about the clear light. There is no need for discussion. I'm just presenting something that I love:

So, I don't know what you need in order to think that this is a great book. Although there is the odd non-conventional term, like "absence" and lots of big words, this book is right on.

TI

I think it is more important to look into the immediate vipasanna aspects of our immediate presence of awareness. Rigpa is right there... no need to read a bunch of stuff about various phenomena...

Jax · March 11, 2013

Further, in another text Vimalamitra writes:

Reflect on these five sentences. By reflecting on them, one will have a clearer idea of what one's vidyā is.

From the comments to this entry:

Hi Argenteaum:

I have not read Tony Duff's book.

There are a number of terms better back-translated into Sanskrit.

Rig pa (vidyā) is one of the them, hence vidyā. Vidyā (knowledge) is the opposite of avidyā (ignorance). However, in the context of Dzogchen texts, rig pa is not generally to be understood as " vedana"="" as="" in="" svasamvedana.

Further, in another text Vimalamitra writes:
Reflect on these five sentences. By reflecting on them, one will have a clearer idea of what one's vidyā is.

From the comments to this entry:

Hi Argenteaum:

I have not read Tony Duff's book.

There are a number of terms better back-translated into Sanskrit.

Rig pa (vidyā) is one of the them, hence vidyā. Vidyā (knowledge) is the opposite of avidyā (ignorance). However, in the context of Dzogchen texts, rig pa is not generally to be understood as " vedana"="" as="" in="" svasamvedana.

<a href="http:/

Further, in another text Vimalamitra writes:

Reflect on these five sentences. By reflecting on them, one will have a clearer idea of what one's vidyā is.

From the comments to this entry:

Hi Argenteaum:

I have not read Tony Duff's book.

There are a number of terms better back-translated into Sanskrit.

Rig pa (vidyā) is one of the them, hence vidyā. Vidyā (knowledge) is the opposite of avidyā (ignorance). However, in the context of Dzogchen texts, rig pa is not generally to be understood as " vedana"="" as="" in="" svasamvedana.There are several inaccuracies in this...

Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen - Clear Light

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