Stigweard Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Are there any thetaobums members who live in the Chicago area? Because it would be great if you would visit Gary to test his Jing as LittlePie did and then later you could report in this thread if it felt to you like a special power / high frequenzy vibration or like a "skill" as Stig calls it! Hehehe ... well I have been running a project with $1.5million up for grabs for anyone who can prove this stuff ... interesting ... no takers yet Protocol to test Subtle Fajin.pdf Protocol to test Subtle Fajin.pdf Edited March 4, 2013 by Stigweard 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted February 22, 2013 Is this the "one vibration" that you were referring to ?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Hehehe ... well I have been running a project with $1.5million up for grabs for anyone who can prove this stuff ... interesting ... no takers yet https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/ Haha, you can already prepare the sum for the bank transfer to Gary! Is this the "one vibration" that you were referring to ?? I guess the Jing that Gary transferred to LittlePie and to the other guy who both collapsed on the floor according to the quotes I posted was a little stronger in amplitude and/or frequenzy! So, will you test Gary's powers personally and then report the results here? (You can then pay the $ 1.5 milion in cash to him, lol!) Edited February 22, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) btw, if you visit him for testing, make sure to film it and to post it here as a video! And if he proves to you that he has real terrific "special powers", I expect your exciting testimony in this thread and at least the establishment of a "Gary Clyman / Mind Light Nei Kung" subforum here on thetaobums!!! Edited February 22, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) When sceptic and non-believer Stig will return from his visit to Gary, like Saul to Paul transformed into Gary's first and most enthusiastic disciple, the dawn of a new era, the era of the free and powerful supermen, will begin here on the taobums with the establishment of the "Ask Gary!" subforum! Now I know what the re-start of the mayan calendar REALLY is about in this year 2013! Edited February 22, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted February 22, 2013 Haha, you can already prepare the sum for the bank transfer to Gary! I guess the Jing that Gary transferred to LittlePie and to the other guy who both collapsed on the floor according to the quotes I posted was a little stronger in amplitude and/or frequenzy! So, will you test Gary's powers personally and then report the results here? (You can then pay the $ 1.5 milion in cash to him, lol!) Challenge accepted, please direct Gary to this page and I will be happy to accommodate him: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/454984937873900/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Please read below some quotes I collected of people who tested Gary J. Clyman's Jing (Including thetaobums member LittlePie), which suggest that Jing is much more than only an ability or a skill! It's a special power: In fact, it's a high-frequenzy vibration! I however agree with you that being able to transfer this special power for martial or healing application is a skill. During the workshop I attended, Gary did the demonstration you can see in the videos, in front of that fence, on exactly one member of the group, and that was the new and super-enthusiastic Clyman fan LittlePie. (I'm not sure whether I asked for the demo after it, but I wanted to, but after the demo lunch time was the dominant topic.) What I'm saying is that just because some of what he does is impressive, it doesn't have to mean that all of it is based on the same internal energetics stuff. Since Clyman himself stated that he judges his healing technique's outcome by observation alone, that he cannot 'feel into' the person, combined with Gary's personality, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he might delude himself sometimes into thinking he used internal energy when in fact it was more due to other factors, like external mechanics (technique) and 'placebo' effect. I remember that after he did his treatment on me, he had already assumed an attitude of 'Hah?! Didn't I tell you? How do you feel NOW? Much better, no?' - But reality was that I didn't feel relieved. Any changes in my feeling would be below error threshold. So to some degree, Gary is flying blind and shaping his reality based on expectation due to past experience. Since that seems to also be at least part of what gives him his confidence, I was not surprised that the whole confidence thing has some interesting blemishes. Going back to the demo in the video. First: It LOOKS completely ordinary. I assume the 'real' part of the demo is supposed to be felt as energy by the recipient. But this makes it subjective, and it can become very suggestive in combination with what Gary told the guy before doing his thing. He was prepping him massively with expectation and momentary reaction. It is not suitable as objective evidence of his abilities. Edited February 23, 2013 by Owledge 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 Challenge accepted, please direct Gary to this page and I will be happy to accommodate him: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/454984937873900/ That's great!! I just emailed Gary about your post! How exactly are the details of your challenge? I don't have a facebook account anymore and therefore can't see the site you link to! During the workshop I attended, Gary did the demonstration you can see in the videos, in front of that fence, on exactly one member of the group, and that was the new and super-enthusiastic Clyman fan LittlePie. (I'm not sure whether I asked for the demo after it, but I wanted to, but after the demo lunch time was the dominant topic.) What I'm saying is that just because some of what he does is impressive, it doesn't have to mean that all of it is based on the same internal energetics stuff. Since Clyman himself stated that he judges his healing technique's outcome by observation alone, that he cannot 'feel into' the person, combined with Gary's personality, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he might delude himself sometimes into thinking he used internal energy when in fact it was more due to other factors, like external mechanics (technique) and 'placebo' effect. I remember that after he did his treatment on me, he had already assumed an attitude of 'Hah?! Didn't I tell you? How do you feel NOW? Much better, no?' - But reality was that I didn't feel relieved. Any changes in my feeling would be below error threshold. So to some degree, Gary is flying blind and shaping his reality based on expectation due to past experience. Since that seems to also be at least part of what gives him his confidence, I was not surprised that the whole confidence thing has some interesting blemishes. Going back to the demo in the video. First: It LOOKS completely ordinary. I assume the 'real' part of the demo is supposed to be felt as energy by the recipient. But this makes it subjective, and it can become very suggestive in combination with what Gary told the guy before doing his thing. He was prepping him massively with expectation and momentary reaction. It is not suitable as objective evidence of his abilities. I'm pretty sure that Stig will be a quite objective test subject! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) If they actually do it, I'm very curious about the result. There shouldn't be a money bet or anything like that though. It would introduce too much potential subjectivity. Edited February 23, 2013 by Owledge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) On to Gary now .I went to see Gary Clyman in person, he is everything he says he is and much more.I weigh 84 kilos(not fat) and punched him and his other top guys as hard as i could, ive trained with pro boxers and i can deliver a punch that will knock any man down.I delivered powerfull(liver and spleen) shots and they didnt tense up.When i punched Gary it felt like my wrist bent and could have snapped(he told me he could have snapped it if he wanted to) Not only that but his fa jing demonstrations were very impressive as was his emotional liposuction, he sent me flying with a light slap and i felt my insides bouncing around.Not only that but he said that he hadnt really hit me yet, I refused to test the next level off power. I have his entire system and he is superior to wong kiew kit by a 1000 lifetimes.That is my opinion and if it gets me kicked off then boo hoo hoo.I dont really care! Gary Clyman knows exactly what he is talking about and his stuff works way better than wongs.There are no insults just facts.GET OVER IT Well, just to make sure in advance: Because Gary has no interest in hurting the persons who want to test his power and after watching the video you posted, I'm pretty sure that Gary will begin his demo with a transfer of a vibration that will not knock you out immedeately, even if he certainly could, but with a vibration powerful enough that would convince the average person that it's true! But because I know exactly how you "sceptics" tick ("No, my rational mind can't accept what I just witnessed, therefore it can't be!!!"), PLEASE make sure to ask him to increase the amplitude and frequency of the vibration step by step to a level, that your "rational mind" HAS to accept what you are witnessing! I don't want you to come back and tell us: "Well, I felt something, but I'm not sure and it could have been all body mechanics and not a real special power (= transferred high frequency vibration ) at all!" But be careful: With every increase of the vibration, it will penetrate deeper into you body! Have fun with your insides bouncing around and collapsing to the floor once he does it. Just go so far or let him "jing" you so many times, that your "sceptic mind" will accept the fact without a doubt that he can do it for sure, that he has a special power and that it isn't simple body mechanics! Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 Stig, I don't have a facebook account and therefore can't read the facebook site you linked to! Therefore could you please quote here what you wrote there please? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) If they actually do it, I'm very curious about the result. There shouldn't be a money bet or anything like that though. It would introduce too much potential subjectivity. Thats true! Anyways, I now suspect that Stig wants Gary to fly over to Australia to get him tested from a scientist of his (Stig's) own choice in a lab and isn't interested to feel Gary's Jing transferred to his own body at all! Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted February 23, 2013 Heya Dorian, we haven't chatted on this level before so I will try and paraphrase what I, and other IMAs are doing on The Fajin Project. From the group description: A group dedicated to advancing the empirical and practical investigation of Fajin within the Chinese Martial Arts.Our Modus Operandi is: Continue to question, research, learn & fill in the pieces without ever assuming we are correct.However it has to be asked:"Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?"Idle anecdotes or claims without being backed up with some hard evidence are frivolous and irrelevant to the main purpose of this group.The primary purpose is not to debunk or publicly shame any person, style, school or tradition. However, if in the process of investigation false claims are revealed then that is as it should be. As a part of this process we are offering "claimants" the opportunity to win $1.5million:The $1.5million Fajin Challenge So contrary to your assumption Dorian, I don't need him to come to Australia, I am sure there would be a science organization close by who would be more that accommodating. Just so you know, anecdotal evidence (i.e. come and feel it for yourself) is not credible evidence at all. What I (we) are looking for is someone who can prove their shtick in a controlled scientific environment. Again, not to debunk or disprove, but to get an accumulation of baseline data to advance the IMA. If you are so "sure" Gary has "the stuff" than I am sure $1.5million would be an attractive offer. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Heya Dorian, we haven't chatted on this level before so I will try and paraphrase what I, and other IMAs are doing on The Fajin Project. From the group description: A group dedicated to advancing the empirical and practical investigation of Fajin within the Chinese Martial Arts. Our Modus Operandi is: Continue to question, research, learn & fill in the pieces without ever assuming we are correct. However it has to be asked: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" Well, it can only scientifically tested what can be scientifically measured! In guess you saw the second John Chang video on youtube. The scientists tried to measure his chi with a VOLTMETER! The voltmeter had no readings, but they could feel Chang's chi flowing into their body when they touched him, as they said it themselves in the video: What does that mean? It means that John Chang FAILED scientific testing! Does this mean that he is a FRAUD? NO, the scientists themselves said they were feeling his power when touching him, even while trying to measure his power with the voltmeter! What John Chang uses is condensed chi that is emitted from his tantien. It's Jing too in taichi terms and the same energy as Gary uses. So how shall Gary's Jing be measured by some random scientific lab? I guess they would have to work years with him to just develop the equipment to be able to measure that kind of energy! Who's gonna to sponsor the development of that equipment? Excuse me, but I don't think that your $ 1.5 million challenge will lead to any useful results. It will only "debunk" genuine masters who have real powers. Just so you know, anecdotal evidence (i.e. come and feel it for yourself) is not credible evidence at all. What I (we) are looking for is someone who can prove their shtick in a controlled scientific environment. Again, not to debunk or disprove, but to get an accumulation of baseline data to advance the IMA. If you are so "sure" Gary has "the stuff" than I am sure $1.5million would be an attractive offer. It's useless until they develop equipment to measure chi! Gary's offer to everyone to visit him and to test his powers personally still stands! Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Again, all thetaobums members who can visit Chicago are invited by Gary to visit him and test his Jing powers personally! You can report about your experience afterwards in this thread. Gary will film the event and the video will be posted later also in this thread. To make an appointment, please contact Gary: http://www.chikung.com/ (312) 446-8218 - Chicagoland(800) 782-4244 - Toll Freeemail:[email protected] 4255 N. Pulaski Rd., Chicago, IL 60641Skype me: Clygar Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Stigweard, What would constitute (be acceptable as) scientific "evidence" for such a test? Does it need to be measured on some level by a machine? Or, is there any approach in which it is "felt" by people? Maybe, something that would also show a change in brainwave activity? Thanks, Jeff P.s. do you personally feel you own internal energy flows? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Hi Dorian, I live about 10 miles from Gary's office. I also know a couple of very powerful energy healers in the Chicago area who you can definitely "feel" when they transmit energy. What would be the purpose of the test? To see if he could "knock me down" with energy? Best, Jeff (edit - deleted unnecessary word) Edited February 23, 2013 by Jeff 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Stigweard, What would constitute (be acceptable as) scientific "evidence" for such a test? Does it need to be measured on some level by a machine? Or, is there any approach in which it is "felt" by people? Maybe, something that would also show a change in brainwave activity? Thanks, Jeff P.s. do you personally feel you own internal energy flows? Hi Jeff, He and others have a lot of stuff posted on thefajin project on facebook,; he gave a link earlier. I did read through some of it and from what I could get from it is that they are looking for repeatable (how many times is enough?) ability to knock someone over without touching. (Stig can make this clear if I am wrong) The group appears to me to have no interest whatsoever in qi projection, appear to totally discount it, and are focused on the martial aspects of fa jin. I have found that few MA understand the concept of wai qi liao fa and only talk about fa jin in terms of knockouts. So I think change in brainwave activity, which a lot of us can demonstrate, is nothing they are interested in. I think Stig is an honest upright fellow so I do believe his intentions are honorable. I also know that qi projection/qi manipulation is variable (and even if fa jin were entirely different [not IMO], it would be as well) and that it would be extremely difficult to impossible to have repeatable same amplitude measurements, even if we did have the evolved instrumentation, due to dynamics of energy flow. Too many variables which can not be eliminated. Yes, an average could be demonstrated, if such instrumentation were available, but not over and over repeatability of same amplitude. Of course this is a moot point for those that believe fa jin is something else entirely than qi projection or manipulation of qi. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Hi Dorian, I live about 10 miles from Gary's office. Jeff, you are the guy we need! What would be the purpose of the test? To see if he could "knock me down" with energy? Best, Jeff Yes, something like that! You should be able to feel if Gary affects you with a force that's not physical muscular force! I guess you know how it feels when someone simply pushes you with muscular force, right? Everyone can do that! If Gary has the jing, he can affect you with a force that is something entirely different: A force that feels possibly like a high-frequency vibration that flows into your body and affects your inner organs: Have fun with your insides bouncing around and collapsing to the floor once he does it. Or it feels like a kinetic force that accelerates your body backwards, like an invisible car hitting you. Or maybe it will be more like the experience that Rick Barret had when encountering Gary's teacher Waysun Liao! Barret wrote about that in his famous book "Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate"! Read here: http://books.google.com/books?id=-66pC3i4cbEC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=waysun+liao+through+the+western+gate&source=bl&ots=bvFwxx6ztX&sig=L4_o29Z63BQhatpY23-k2SFJ1PE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JPoDUbDSD8_vqQGXnICYDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=waysun%20liao%20through%20the%20western%20gate&f=false Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted February 23, 2013 Wow that's a lot of money -- is Stig rich? Or a ton of people donated? Yeah the issue of "external qi" is a good one as there is already a "gold standard" (randomized controlled) study showing "very impressive" results from "external qi" healing. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20626055 http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4477844.htm “Subjects with chronic pain who received External Qigong experienced reduction in pain intensity following each Qigong treatment. This is especially impressive given the long duration of pain (>5 years), in the majority of subjects,” writes the study’s lead author, Ann Vincent, MD, MBBS, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) @Jeff Michael Phillips describes it as a hydraulic pulse wave that is emitted from your tantien and that flows through your body fluids over your hands into the body of your opponent. Strangely enough, Phillips had some impressive videos on youtube and deleted them shortly after I posted them here in another thread. In those videos, you could see his forearms vibrate, when he delivered this kinetic/hydraulic pulse wave and his opponent went flying! Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Ya Mu, Thank you for the overview. Now I better understand some of the complexity of their specific goal (not a Facebook person). Some form of scientific documentation of energy/chi transfer seems like a very worthwhile goal (even if there is no money in it ). Best, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2013 Dorian, The "energy transfers" that I am familiar with do feel like high energy vibrations, but they do not require any physical contact to transmit. So we may be talking about slightly different things. Best, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 23, 2013 Jeff, as I already pm'd you, it would be great if you would make an appointment with Gary to test his Jing for the Taobums! kind regards, Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 23, 2013 Jeff, as I already pm'd you, it would be great if you would make an appointment with Gary to test his Jing for the Taobums! kind regards, Dorian Black Always up for a good experiment. Anyone else in the Chicagoland area interested in joining me for a test? Best, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
