Wells Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) hmm lol studying taiji for 20 years and not yet grasping its internal aspects.. how on earth would you use jing if you haven't even known chi. have you read taiji classics by waysun liao? or even the treatise of Chang San Feng! Â hahah chi is definitely not faith belief, once you feel it bubbling in your dan tian then you'll know for sure no one has tricked you! Â I agree with you! But you need a good training system and not an empty one to achieve that state! Â In which system do you train, if I might ask? Edited February 26, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 26, 2013 Heya Jeff, Â Perhaps you are getting an insight into what I have been dealing with for the last few years with this "project" Â Whilst getting clarity on "what fajin should look like", I have been diligent to get agreement from "those that do it". Here then is a "Definition of Subtle Fajin" that we are using in the aforementioned testing protocol: Â specifically does not rely upon nor adhere to Newton's Second Law of Force (i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration), with the demonstrator standing with feet parallel with someone at least their own size facing them in a well-rooted stance of their choice (e.g. classical bow stance etc.), the demonstrator can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet. Both feet lift off the ground at the same time and land and the same time. whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if the demonstrator's elbows accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT "Subtle Fajin", to reemphasize, the wrists and elbows of the person issuing "Subtle Fajin" do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles, does not use the physical force generated by agonist (prime mover) muscle contraction (that is typical of ordinary forms of movement) beyond some absolute minimum amount that is required to keep the body structure together and upright, no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists that would signify the use of muscular engagement to produce the force, the subject (i.e. the person being pushed) shows no sign of initiating their reactive movement, i.e. there is no sign of the subject pushing with their legs that would imply a "jump" backwards, nor pushing back off the Demonstrator's arms with their hands. Most of these terms are the very words of folks like Michael Phillips, Adam Mizner etc. themselves. I have merely collected and collated them through the extensive "discussions" I had directly with these "teachers" and then got confirmation from them that these details are correct. Â The earlier list of stipulations is to ensure that the requisites of this definition are adhered to. Personally I would not even consider the credibility of test unless it used conformed to those stipulations. I will emphasize here though that no confidence could be garnered from you visiting Garry in terms of evidence one way or the other due to in not being in a controlled environment and the procedure would be a very long way from being a double-blind protocol. Â Quite specifically I would not let him touch any other part of your body accept your forearms, or as I indicated, you touching his forearms. In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration. Adhering to "fajin theory", that is all the touch required to transfer "jin" in the way that is claimed. Â http://youtu.be/FZf5efMQqwY Â Hi Stigweard, Â Yes, I would agree that I have begun to understand what you have been dealing with on this project. Â I will go back to Gary with more of your testing advice/parameters. Â Thanks, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Heya Jeff, Â Perhaps you are getting an insight into what I have been dealing with for the last few years with this "project" Â Whilst getting clarity on "what fajin should look like", I have been diligent to get agreement from "those that do it". Here then is a "Definition of Subtle Fajin" that we are using in the aforementioned testing protocol: Â specifically does not rely upon nor adhere to Newton's Second Law of Force (i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration), with the demonstrator standing with feet parallel with someone at least their own size facing them in a well-rooted stance of their choice (e.g. classical bow stance etc.), the demonstrator can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet. Both feet lift off the ground at the same time and land and the same time. whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if the demonstrator's elbows accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT "Subtle Fajin", to reemphasize, the wrists and elbows of the person issuing "Subtle Fajin" do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles, does not use the physical force generated by agonist (prime mover) muscle contraction (that is typical of ordinary forms of movement) beyond some absolute minimum amount that is required to keep the body structure together and upright, no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists that would signify the use of muscular engagement to produce the force, the subject (i.e. the person being pushed) shows no sign of initiating their reactive movement, i.e. there is no sign of the subject pushing with their legs that would imply a "jump" backwards, nor pushing back off the Demonstrator's arms with their hands. Most of these terms are the very words of folks like Michael Phillips, Adam Mizner etc. themselves. I have merely collected and collated them through the extensive "discussions" I had directly with these "teachers" and then got confirmation from them that these details are correct. Â The earlier list of stipulations is to ensure that the requisites of this definition are adhered to. Personally I would not even consider the credibility of test unless it used conformed to those stipulations. I will emphasize here though that no confidence could be garnered from you visiting Garry in terms of evidence one way or the other due to in not being in a controlled environment and the procedure would be a very long way from being a double-blind protocol. Â Quite specifically I would not let him touch any other part of your body accept your forearms, or as I indicated, you touching his forearms. In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration. Adhering to "fajin theory", that is all the touch required to transfer "jin" in the way that is claimed. Â http://youtu.be/FZf5efMQqwY Â => Thank you, you imply that Michael Phillips demonstrates Fajin in his demonstration! Was this a Freudian slip? Â I thought the demo was only a push??? Edited February 26, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Â Hahhah ... Ray still has that up on his site ... that is actually rather funny. Â If you had seen the "fall out" between them you would realize how damn funny that is... but you would have to have a facebook account to see the rather public "to do" they had... Â Â Yeah, the "fall out" between them must have been terrible! So terrible that Ray still lists Michael's website as first link in the link section on his website (with photo): http://www.texastaichi.net/Links.aspx?pg=1 Michael Phillips Our Teacher Mr. Michael Phillips teaches Louie some stuff! Edited February 26, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted February 26, 2013 => Thank you, you imply that Michael Phillips demonstrates Fajin in his demonstration! Was this a Freudian slip?  I thought the demo was only a push???  ROFL !!! I love watching "believers" stretch and grasp trying to desperately say, "Aha !! Got you!!"   Here is my statement: "In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration."  Credible evidence is attained when results from a method can be replicated under a controlled environment. Michael Phillips, and others, have listed down their stipulations of what "their fajin" should and should not look like. I have collected and collated these stipulations into a testing protocol so that, when we examine the video footage of the test, we can tick all the boxes that the stipulations have been met.  That is exactly what my statement means.   Yeah, the "fall out" between them must have been terrible! So terrible that Ray still lists Michael's website as first link in the link section on his website (with photo): http://www.texastaichi.net/Links.aspx?pg=1  Yup and I am still splitting my sides laughing over this ... obviously Ray needs to talk with his webmaster.  Michael Phillips has very publicly denounced Ray Abeyta and has formally severed all connections with him. Actually the rather long winded public statement went quite a bit further than that, even into an interesting character assessment  They have since waged rather "colorful" flame wars on each other on Facebook. I can show you links, but again you need a FB account  1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 26, 2013 Yup and I am still splitting my sides laughing over this ... obviously Ray needs to talk with his webmaster. Â Michael Phillips has very publicly denounced Ray Abeyta and has formally severed all connections with him. Actually the rather long winded public statement went quite a bit further than that, even into an interesting character assessment Does Abeyta maybe want to get some advantage out of still using Phillips' name in that way? Is that part of his alleged character? I know it's happening every now and then in the MA/spiritual community. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) always a fascinating topic. Edited February 26, 2013 by zerostao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 26, 2013 They have since waged rather "colorful" flame wars on each other on Facebook. I can show you links, but again you need a FB account   Why don't you quote the best parts of it here (including links)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 26, 2013 Does Abeyta maybe want to get some advantage out of still using Phillips' name in that way? Â Anyway I don't believe that he doesn't know the actual content of his website. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted February 26, 2013 Excuse me for taking this back to the OP, and please excuse the appearance of speaking "against" other people's views, but I would like to return to the point that we need to be very grounded and pragmatic in our approach to "power" in the internal martial arts.  Too readily, it would seem to me, people are wanting to believe in something special ... they would prefer the faith-belief in a fantasy rather just embracing plain old reality as it is.  Tai Chi Chuan, for example, is such an exquisitely beautiful and philosophically rich art that you could study the fundamental principles your whole life and never once have to mention Qi or Shen or any other mystic concept. Please don't read this as me advocating against these terms or concepts, I am merely pointing out that there is massive corpus of knowledge to embody as a prerequisite before even starting to consider the deeper metaphysics.  Sung gong, Daolu, Chan Si Jin, Wu Gong, Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, Bagua applications, Tui Shou, Da Lu, etc. Shi San Shi, the thirteen postures, including Bai Men, the eight gates, and Wu Bu, the five steps, Wai Jins like: duan jin – breaking power, chuang jin – ramming power, cun jin – one inch power, dou jin – shaking power, chong jin – charging power, etc. Nei Jins like: chen jin – sinking power, ting jin - listening power, zhan jin – adhering power, nian jin – sticking power, sui jin – following power, etc. Si Zheng Tui Shou, the four hands of push hands, Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Using all the above in Fangshen/San Shou, fighting application: Da - Striking, Ti - Kicking, Na - Grappling, Shuai - Wrestling. Crikey !!! That is a good 10 to 20 years of training right there, and all of it can be learned without the crazy talk of "super powers".  My point here, and my point in the original article, is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.   Stig you talk about belief but I'm talking about experiencing the energy of the qigong master! haha.  I know you don't want testimonials but that is a type of censorship.  So for example Chunyi Lin said in the Level 2 class that he can read what percentage an organ is functioning. So during the break I went up - facing him from a few feet away -- and I asked him what percentage my right kidney was functioning. He looked at my right kidney and immediately I felt this hot laser bliss just on my right kidney and then he said -- about 70%. I just said: thanks but my experience was one of total awe.  So then in the Level 3 class the middle of my brain was on fire when Chunyi Lin left the room after reading my aura and telling me to keep my mouth shut -- the focus of Level 3 is to open the third eye. The fire was so intense in the middle of my brain that I just wanted to stop meditating - and this was during the break when we were supposedly waiting for Chunyi Lin to return. haha.  I had that happen to me one other time -- about five years later -- Jim Nance was in full lotus as everyone was leaving class. He told me he was going upstairs to continue practicing. I asked if I could join him. He said: "Maybe later." So then I biked home and I went into full lotus meditation -- after about a five mile bike home. Then the middle of my brain was on fire -- and at first I thought maybe it's a full moon since I feel the magnetic bliss in the brain much stronger during the full moon. Nope this was way stronger! The fire sensation was so strong I just wanted the meditation to stop.  So then the week went by and I forgot about my experience. I got to class and Jim pulled me into the hallway and asks: "Did you feel anything?" Suddenly I remembered what had happened - how he had said: "Maybe later" and then the middle of my brain was on fire. I just looked at him in awe and I didn't even respond. haha. He could tell from the look on my face that indeed I had felt something.  So that's just a few of the shen transmission stories.  I realize that stories are something you self-censor but I'm guessing other people will read this - -and again anyone can just make an appointment for a phone healing and experience the laser holographic shen transmission for themselves! It might not be as strong as what I experienced because at the time I was training stronger and so my channels were opening up so I could handle a stronger amplification of energy. But even then Chunyi Lin said my mind was not ready yet for any stronger energy. He has been working on opening my heart center more first and to do that I need to store up more energy in the lower tan tien.  I agree that for the advanced training it takes very special circumstances on the part of the student and also dedicated practice -- like six hours a day -- plus special diet and also discipline when not meditating. But my point is that if you can find a teacher who can transmit the shen laser energy then you can definitely tell the level of energy and the transmission can be very powerful. Such a transmission can definitely speed up the training time - the first time I experienced that third eye fire energy was only after six months of taking classes. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kasuku Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) To answer you Dorian, im a relative beginner been doing qigong for around 6 months and nei kung for around 2... Â I called Gary the other day after i tried his awesome condensing breathing practice on youtube. don't have the cash yet to buy his nei kung (i just entered college) tho i went through the daily practice routine pdf on his site. Â I think one just needs the discerning eye on which system and exactly how to practice for the best results, using your yi! Edited February 26, 2013 by Jascha 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) To answer you Dorian, im a relative beginner been doing qigong for around 6 months and nei kung for around 2... Â ok, I understand! Â I called Gary the other day after i tried his awesome condensing breathing practice on youtube. don't have the cash yet to buy his nei kung (i just entered college) tho i went through the daily practice routine pdf on his site. Â That's great! Condensing Breathing is the most important and fundamental exercise in Mind Light Nei Kung! You can never do too much Condensing Breathing! Because the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD set is included in the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set anyway and the first material in the system you'll have to lern, you can first buy the Tidal Wave Chi kung DVD set, if you don't have the money together for the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set yet. But make sure to tell Gary that you will eventually buy the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set when you have the money together and ask him when you finally buy the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set if he will give you a price reduction then because you don't need a second copy of the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD's! Until you buy the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD set, practice the Condensing Breathing exercise already as much and often as possible! Â I would also advise you to buy the book "Taichi Classics" of Gary's teacher Waysun Liao, to learn all the theoretical background of Gary's Nei Kung system! Â I think one just needs the discerning eye on which system and exactly how to practice for the best results, using your yi! Â I absolutely agree with you! Edited February 26, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 ok, I understand! Â Â That's great! Condensing Breathing is the most important and fundamental exercise in Mind Light Nei Kung! You can never do too much Condensing Breathing! Because the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD set is included in the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set anyway and the first material in the system you'll have to lern, you can first buy the Tidal Wave Chi kung DVD set, if you don't have the money together for the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set yet. But make sure to tell Gary that you will eventually buy the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set when you have the money together and ask him when you finally buy the Mind Light Nei Kung DVD set if he will give you a price reduction then because you don't need a second copy of the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD's! Until you buy the Tidal Wave Chi Kung DVD set, practice the Condensing Breathing exercise already as much and often as possible! Â I would also advise you to buy the book "Taichi Classics" of Gary's teacher Waysun Liao, to learn all the theoretical background of Gary's Nei Kung system! Â Â I absolutely agree with you! Â Â Condensing breath is part of Yantra Yoga as taught by Namkhai Norbu. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 Expensive DVD's and pricey workshops are nothing more than profiteers at work. In the Western world many believe that if the price is outrageously high, then it must be the best. I happen to live in a town that has thrived on that BS for decades. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 27, 2013 Expensive DVD's and pricey workshops are nothing more than profiteers at work. In the Western world many believe that if the price is outrageously high, then it must be the best. I happen to live in a town that has thrived on that BS for decades. OR ... MAYBE people are trying to make a living with their main profession only. Generalizations shape rigid world views, make inflexible and closed-minded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) OR ... MAYBE people are trying to make a living with their main profession only. Generalizations shape rigid world views, make inflexible and closed-minded. Â Â I don't appreciate your accusations towards me. Exactly what proof do you have that I am rigid and close minded? You don't even know me. Just because someone chooses a given profession, does not give them the right to financially gouge people. I have seen too many people taken advantage of by fraudulent teachers. Edited February 27, 2013 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 27, 2013 I don't appreciate your accusations towards me. Exactly what proof do you have that I am rigid and close minded? You don't even know me. Just because someone chooses a given profession, does not give them the right to financially gouge people. I have seen too many people taken advantage of by fraudulent teachers. Seen too many for what? For still assuming there might be exceptions to your own personal experience? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Seen too many for what? For still assuming there might be exceptions to your own personal experience? Â Â I guess you don't understand? Persons taken advantage of with expensive workshops given by frauds. For example there was the workshop to teach how to be immortal by two immortals from Mt. Shasta ;Princess Sharula and Shield Dux. Princess Sharula was exposed as being a stripper in a night club somewhere in the midwest and not from Mt. Shasta. Not exactly immortals. Â Clyman may be nothing more than a showman wanting peoples money. Â I am not saying all are frauds but there are exceptions. Edited February 27, 2013 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Owledge Posted February 27, 2013 Expensive DVD's and pricey workshops are nothing more than profiteers at work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 Â Expensive DVD's and pricey workshops are nothing more than profiteers at work. Â Â I don't think discussing anything with you works. I believe that if something is beneficial then any one person should not be gouged financially. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Expensive DVD's and pricey workshops are nothing more than profiteers at work. In the Western world many believe that if the price is outrageously high, then it must be the best. I happen to live in a town that has thrived on that BS for decades. Â Dude, if you don't have the money to pay for Gary's stuff then get a job and work for it! I saved money for around 2 years to be able to buy Gary's Nei Kung system! Therefore, I really appreciate it and stick to the training! There are people on this site like rodgerj who agree with me that Gary's system in not pricey at all for it's incredible worth! Hell, I even suggested to Gary to raise it's price EVEN FURTHER because it's much to low-priced for it's enormous value (after already buying my own copy, of course!)! Edited February 27, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 Dude, if you don't have the money to pay for Gary's stuff then get a job and work for it! I saved money for around 2 years to be able to buy Gary's Nei Kung system! Therefore, I really appreciate it and stick to the training! There are people on this site like rodgerj who agree with me that Gary's system in not pricey at all for it's incredible worth! Hell, I even suggested to Gary to raise it's price EVEN FURTHER because it's much to low-priced for it's enormous value(after already buying my own copy, of course!)! Â Â I would appreciate a little respect for what I stated. I happen to be a successful businessman and to tell me to get a job is insane! I happen to employ persons! Get a life! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) I would appreciate a little respect for what I stated. I happen to be a successful businessman and to tell me to get a job is insane! I happen to employ persons! Get a life! Â In fact this makes your opinion about Gary's prices even more absurd! I guess you wanted to receive your car and your house as a gift also, right? And Gary's system is much more worth than a house...much more worth than ANY money in fact! Edited February 28, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) In fact this makes your opinion about Gary's prices even more absurd! Or you are not only closeminded but also closefisted! I guess you wanted to receive your car and your house as a gift also, right? And Gary's system is much more worth than a house...much more worth than ANY money in fact! Â Â What is your problem? How in the hell do you know I am close minded? Is it due to the fact that I have stated an opinion on pricey Qigong teachings? That makes me close minded? I am no fool and you seem to have an inflated view of Clyman. I have no foolish views or pay inflated reverence to anyone. Especially egotistical teachers who display themselves on youtube. Â It is your right to see Clyman as a guru god or whatever you choose. I don't care. I do care about spiritual fraud in the marketplace and overpriced stuff in the name of a so called higher and better teaching! Edited February 27, 2013 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) What is your problem? How in the hell do you know I am close minded? Is it due to the fact that I have stated an opinion on pricey Qigong teachings? That makes me close minded? Â Being unable to understand that something very precious is not available for a low price seems closeminded to me...and I am not the only one with this opinion in this thread! Â In fact, this is "businessman basics", dude! Edited February 28, 2013 by Dorian Black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
