$1.5million Fajin Challenge

[teknix]

Several years ago when I started asking simple questions like "where is the proof?" I was continuously attacked and denigrated for doing so by these "masters" and their groupies. Instead of simply showing credible evidence, which is what every other industry has to do, they continue to throw up a veneer of verboseness whilst never "coming to the party" in terms of evidence.

 

It does seem that a common ploy amongst these scam artist is to point their finger at you, attempt to be-little you, claim it is you fault, feign insulted, berate you for insolence, etc, etc.

I think the thing is that their profession and careers and even word are at stake, so they automaticall become defensive.

 

In the rational world I don't believe without a legitimate reason to believe something. If there is not any change then the null hypothesis is accepted, quite simple.

 

In general terms it is up to the claimant, or the person making the claim, to provide the predicted change.

 

I could claim I can levitate, but without evidence or ever really ever have done so, it is a flat out lie and immoral, and I would have no reason to tell people such a thing. Not even for money or power over them.

[teknix]

The people who make such claims should be held 100% accountable.

[gendao]

Let me clarify the terminology.When I say "Subtle Jin" I mean the light or no touch versions ... just touching someone's arm or body and they go bouncey bounce down the hall ... or the no touch versions.

 

When I learned that they are speaking of on body versus off body I'll admit my interest has waned as I have experienced this off body. I attempted to make a point about energetics and vibration in that a pure energy technique would not need physical contact whereas a physical contact technique could be a physical vibration which could induce that in another. This is different than an off-body pure energy method as I am sure you know.

 

What I experienced as fa jin was definitely energetics and also off body so no mechanical vibration was involved

We designed the testing protocol as a way of giving these "masters" an opportunity to prove their "fajin" in a way that would satisfy the requirement of delivering "credible proof". In fact we styled the test exactly on what Michael Phillips declared was the observable requirements of "real fajin", he even declared publicly that what we had designed was perfectly in tune with his "fajin". But when it came to him actually participating in the test all we got was more of his bluster and insults and another round of exit clauses.

 

Which is then why we decided to give the project some teeth ... The $1.5million Fajin Challenge

First time I've heard of this scientific challenge to separate the wheat from the chaff. I APPLAUD Stigweard for setting this up and it is a FANTASTIC opportunity!

 

- So, Gary Clyman's healing videos look very convincing, but his "fajin" tape appears very physical here...

- Michael Phillips's fajin videos appear to display more subtle power - but I'm not sure how much of it is biomechanics, qi or both? And, he apparently did not impress much against a "skeptic" in at least one anecdotal account.

- Fong Ha (and others, like Dong ZengChen) can demonstrate great rooting (with some subtle power) on command - even world-renowned strength coach, Paul Chek, couldn't move him! Alas, I don't think even Fong Ha has "subtle jin," though..

 

Real "subtle jin" requires basically just enough physical contact* to "connect a circuit" to deliver an explosive discharge. It relies upon QI, NOT biomechanics (although perhaps proper posture might help to the qi flow better?) It does not require any initial incoming force to redirect - and so should work against any person in general simply standing still.

 

However, obviously very few people possess this level of ability. And those who do are typically working more as qigong healers than martial artists. Not to mention, many of them only speak Chinese, are basically never on the internet/FB (lol) and are in their 80s and passing away now..

 

But, I suppose that's all the MORE reason to document some of their life stories and skills then, before they're gone..

 

 

* From what I've seen/experienced, no-touch "empty force" can work on compliant partners similar to hypnosis, but I've yet to reliably hear of it working against any resisting opponents.

I have NEVER been a part of or witnessed a believable demonstration by ANYONE claiming to use the Lin Kong Jing ability (or similar ability where the attacker is thrown or moved by Qi) against a determined, non-compliant aggressor.

Edited March 2, 2013 by vortex

[skydog]

It does seem that a common ploy amongst these scam artist is to point their finger at you, attempt to be-little you, claim it is you fault, feign insulted, berate you for insolence, etc, etc.

I think the thing is that their profession and careers and even word are at stake, so they automaticall become defensive.

 

In the rational world I don't believe without a legitimate reason to believe something. If there is not any change then the null hypothesis is accepted, quite simple.

 

In general terms it is up to the claimant, or the person making the claim, to provide the predicted change.

 

I could claim I can levitate, but without evidence or ever really ever have done so, it is a flat out lie and immoral, and I would have no reason to tell people such a thing. Not even for money or power over them.

 

 

Could it be that YOUR scientific/rational career is at stake and you feel threatened and jealous so choose to attack others beliefs?

[teknix]

Rofl, wut?

 

Edited March 2, 2013 by teknix

[skydog]

Rofl, wut?

 

 

Yep you sound like a scientist an academic who relies on science and is threatened by spirituality. Your ego is crushed by the idea of all your scientific knowledge not being worth so much.

Edited March 2, 2013 by sinansencer

[teknix]

There is nothing wrong with spirituality, what does mystical powers have to do with spirituality? Your the only one who said such a thing so you must be arguing with yourself or a Strawman.

[skydog]

There is nothing wrong with spirituality, what does mystical powers have to do with spirituality? Your the only one who said such a thing so you must be arguing with yourself or a Strawman.

 

Dont backpedal yourself and try to pretend you havent been saying such things. Obviously spirituality and mystiscm go together. In Islam there is sufism, In Christianity Gnostiscm, In Judaism Kaballah, Buddha well he was a buddha, Hinduism is full of what seems supernatural, in fact the whole story of Jesus and Mohammed is based on Mystism. The word spirituality itself implies a form of mystism i.e the spirit, which science has not validified yet.

[teknix]

I haven't been saying such things, you have conflated that all by yourself. (for whatever reason)

 

Edited March 2, 2013 by teknix

[skydog]

I haven't, you have conflated it all by yourself.

 

 

Everyones been presenting you with non stop proof of what appears supernatural, a guy putting a drill to his head or getting his stomach pummelled with a wooden ram and ten men or heating the body. And then you just ignore it and say its nonsense, seems without even having a look at it, in fact it doesnt seem like your trying to find anything out, more just flander your disprove and aggravate everyone.

[teknix]

There is a process to follow if you want to provide legitimate empirical evidence of such claims, using the scientific method.

JREF conducts such experiments and offers a nice prize if there is evidence of your predicted change.

[skydog]

There is a process to follow if you want to provide legitimate empirical evidence of such claims, using the scientific method.

JREF conducts such experiments and offers a nice prize if there is evidence of your predicted change.

 

JREF is nonsense

Legimitate empirical evidence is nonsense

 

Those things are complete and utter nonsense.

 

This is kind of like if you saw UFOs, had an actual experience, etc etc

But refused to believe in it because the government of your country didnt print it on the front page of their newspaper as correct. In my opinion this is faulty thinking.

[teknix]

Nut bars are a dime a dozen man.

[teknix]

Yep you sound like a scientist an academic who relies on science and is threatened by spirituality. Your ego is crushed by the idea of all your scientific knowledge not being worth so much.

[Stigweard]

 

I don't understand this challenge.

 

You do realize fajing is not paranormal right?

 

Then on your page, you give this video as a demonstration of fajing or subtle skills

 

So are you saying if someone can reproduce the things on this video on a non compliant opponent, and replicate it several times, you have 1.5 million that you will give to them? Simple as that? What's the catch?

 

I have updated the OP in this new thread with PDF's of details for you to download if you wish.

 

The fajin that is being spammed about is most certainly paranormal by literal definition:

 

Definition of Paranormal:

 

If an ability or effect is beyond, counter or contrary to normal experience (i.e. beyond what the majority of people would consider normal) AND is beyond, counter or contrary to scientific explanation AND lacks verified scientific evidence (i.e. has not been demonstrated under a controlled scientific protocol and verified by a reputable scientific research organization) than it is by rights considered to be “paranormal”.

 

Nice and easy.

 

[Mokona]

During the workshop I attended, Gary did the demonstration you can see in the videos, in front of that fence, on exactly one member of the group, and that was the new and super-enthusiastic Clyman fan LittlePie. (I'm not sure whether I asked for the demo after it, but I wanted to, but after the demo lunch time was the dominant topic.)

 

What I'm saying is that just because some of what he does is impressive, it doesn't have to mean that all of it is based on the same internal energetics stuff. Since Clyman himself stated that he judges his healing technique's outcome by observation alone, that he cannot 'feel into' the person, combined with Gary's personality, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he might delude himself sometimes into thinking he used internal energy when in fact it was more due to other factors, like external mechanics (technique) and 'placebo' effect.

I remember that after he did his treatment on me, he had already assumed an attitude of 'Hah?! Didn't I tell you? How do you feel NOW? Much better, no?' - But reality was that I didn't feel relieved. Any changes in my feeling would be below error threshold.

So to some degree, Gary is flying blind and shaping his reality based on expectation due to past experience. Since that seems to also be at least part of what gives him his confidence, I was not surprised that the whole confidence thing has some interesting blemishes.

 

Going back to the demo in the video. First: It LOOKS completely ordinary. I assume the 'real' part of the demo is supposed to be felt as energy by the recipient. But this makes it subjective, and it can become very suggestive in combination with what Gary told the guy before doing his thing. He was prepping him massively with expectation and momentary reaction. It is not suitable as objective evidence of his abilities.

 

Thank you.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Mokona

[Mokona]

According to the kinetic wave phenomens I can feel in my body thanks to Gary's Nei Kung system, I'm sure that he can use and produce that vibration in such a magnitude and concentration, that he can knock people out with it.

Why don't you contact him directly and tell him the exact details of your challenge, which I still don't know because I can't access facebook!?

If it's like "knocking several people out with fajin under the watch of a scientist in Chicago and then he gets $1.5 million guaranteed", he's maybe interested!

 

 

 

If I develop Fajin because of Gary's training, the first test object will be a big bull or a big horse and it will be filmed, to be unable to fool myself.

 

Brother,

 

You must be kidding. Just make a Facebook account. If you don't want your personal information - make a fake one with a one time use email address. Just pull out a pencil and piece of paper so you don't forget your login and passwords. I just want to scream, you can teach yourself Chi Kung and NieGung but you can't figure out Facebook? It's 2013!

Edited March 4, 2013 by Mokona

[Mokona]

how much do we have to pay Stig to copy and paste his facebook material to thetaobums? haha.

 

i don't have facebook and I don't plan on it.

 

If anyone on ttb can c/p that info -- then just do it -- it's free!!

 

Yeah but know it has to be some "secret" information. haha.

 

Science is based on open protocols - that anyone can access -- sure sometimes you might have to go to a University library to access a journal.

 

For example I could find no academic library in the Twin Cities that had Dr. David Palmer's article on Falun Gong - so I mailed a letter to Dr. Palmer and then he mailed me a copy of the article.

 

So it's just considered academic protocol to make the information publically available upon request -- be it interlibrary loan or whatever.

 

Ummm this whole thing is starting to smell of the James Randi "challenge" test which has been exposed as fake:

 

http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

 

Oh yeah James Randi attacked Chunyi Lin without knowing anything about him! haha.

 

Someone complained to James Randi because Chunyi Lin was teaching qigong to the employees at the person's place of work - based on the reference of Chunyi Lin having taught the Mayo Clinic doctors qigong.

 

So anyway it's kind of like arch-skeptic PZ Myers, a Minnesota professor, who has attacked Spring Forest Qigong yet Myers refuses to go "test" Chunyi Lin even though they live in the same state. haha. The skeptics just hide while Chunyi Lin is openly healing people etc.

 

O.K. Stig what about Effie P. Chow's youtube vid of pushing a whole group of people using her chi energy?

 

I know Effie P. Chow is a real qigong master - -when I saw her in 1995 a University security guard wandered in when everyone was leaving - she said she wondered what was going in as the fuse in the room behind Effie P. Chow was blown. haha.

 

Oh yeah I know you want "scientific protocol" but I doubt anyone could establish a "double blind" standard for any qigong test since no one knows what qi energy is -- so no one could rule out telepathy or precognition or some kind of spirit communication, etc. In other words anyone involved with the test could somehow be affecting the results.

 

So that's why Chunyi Lin's scientific test was "gold standard" which is randomized, controlled but that is not double blind.

 

Drew,

 

Please see my response to D-man. Or use a friends access to Facebook. You can borrow the password and username for the research.

 

2013.

[taijistudent]

Qigong effects on the body are necessarily very subtle because one is cultivating life energy. One can feel this energy oneself, as it grows in strength and it may manifest in a more healthy body (e.g. more elastic spine, muscles, sinew, better skin tone, healthier skin color, clearer eyes, etc.). Couple a healthier body with greater awareness and skills, Qigong can assist anyone in any activity in life. As any athlete will tell you, the more repetition the better it becomes.

 

However, the manifestations are subtle and can only be slightly felt between people, e.g. when someone passes a warm hand through another person's hand after quiet Qigong practice. It is very real, it is very healthy, and it is very useful in life.

 

Such benefits come over time and anyone can gain such benefits by practicing in any Qigong group or by oneself. There is no magic or need for great expense which would be simply a transfer of money with little gain for the hard earned money. A knowledgeable teacher is always helpful. One who has a good heart, good knowledge, good feeling for teaching and of the students. For lack of this, I have started a thread of Youtube videos which provide quiet demonstrations of Qigong that anyone can do. I hope everyone enjoys their practice and the benefits that it brings and I hope this thread helps provide people information about the very rewarding and inexpensive practice of Qiqong. Qigong was designed so that everyone, young and old can enjoy the rewards of the practice.

Edited March 4, 2013 by taijistudent

[Mokona]

Yeah right. That's why you admire and celebrate and cherish his unique personality so much and keep stating how superior he is in comparison to others. You have adopted some personality traits from him. Not an uncommon thing though for a student following a teacher's program.

I'm wondering how much personality change comes from the Qi Gong itself. After all, its focus on grounding, forceful condensing, accumulation of raw power matches the characteristic personality.

Might be the same process that causes many external martial artists to have an inflated ego. Too much focus on one side of the coin. All technique, no philosophy.

Imagine a Bruce Lee who didn't care at all for philosophy and character building. He probably would have become an uncontrollable self-asorbed killing machine, bragging that he has the deadliest punch on earth, eventually wondering whether he can really rip someone's heart out and trying to replicate Mortal Kombat finishing moves out of curiosity and being drunk from his own awesomeness.

 

Actuall,y i've always thought Dorian comes off as a paid advertiser of Gary's products. I'm fairly certain he is paid to advertise on every post like he does. He might make a small percentage for everytime he can mention a DVD or technique, or get a cut everytime someone orders from one of his links. I've never even seen the most satisfied of customers act this way.

[Wells]

Actuall,y i've always thought Dorian comes off as a paid advertiser of Gary's products. I'm fairly certain he is paid to advertise on every post like he does. He might make a small percentage for everytime he can mention a DVD or technique, or get a cut everytime someone orders from one of his links. I've never even seen the most satisfied of customers act this way.

 

I can use the facebook account of a buddy now to read the stuff there. But he forbid me to "engage in flame wars" with his account! So I can't comment.

 

No, I'm NOT paid by Gary and I don't receive a single dollar for my work here!

Also, I don't do it for Gary, I do it for the other seekers who are in the same situation now as I was years ago when I searched desperately for a great Nei Kung system that really works!

[No Cause]

This "challenge" is a joke, these guys don't have any dough. All that is promised is they will help the successful challenger to apply to all these skeptic grants. Such a bunch pathetic clowns.

[Wells]

This "challenge" is a joke, these guys don't have any dough. All that is promised is they will help the successful challenger to apply to all these skeptic grants. Such a bunch pathetic clowns.

 

Thank you very much for your comment!

Exactly these are the reasons why I denounce Stig's ridolous challenge as a FRAUD!

 

It's good to see that I'm not the only one on ttb who has common sense and the ability to think critical!

[Stigweard]

This "challenge" is a joke, these guys don't have any dough. All that is promised is they will help the successful challenger to apply to all these skeptic grants. Such a bunch pathetic clowns.

 

It is quite clear what the challenge is ... where is the problem with helping someone set up a world tour and come home $1.5million richer?

 

All the money is there and all someone claiming they can do their fajin bouncy-bounce rubbish has to do is rock up and do it in a controlled environment.

 

Once again:

 

fraud / Noun

• Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
• A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

Therefore the only "fraud" in the equation are people like Gary Clyman and co. who are making claims and marketing those claims for personal gain. EVERY other industry must by law provide documented proof that their marketing claims are true and real. Why on earth do you think the Internal Martial Arts should be exempt from legal requirements?

 

[Stigweard]

Legimitate empirical evidence is nonsense

 

Really?

 

Then I guess you typing on your computer (a piece of technology developed through "legitimate empirical evidence") is an object of faith belief is it ???

 

Do you own a car?? How would you feel if you found out that the safety standard certificate was just something someone made up on the spot?? You would like to know that it was backed up with some legitimate empirical evidence wouldn't you??

 

You live in the lap of luxury due to legitimate empirical evidence (aka scientific development), are you going to complain about all the conveniences you have from living in a modern Western world ??

 

I didn't think so...