$1.5million Fajin Challenge

[voidisyinyang]

Always up for a good experiment. Anyone else in the Chicagoland area interested in joining me for a test?

 

Best, Jeff

 

Have fun! Up in minneapolis my qigong buddy is getting blasted today. He told me how the master put his finger on his hand and amped it up and my friend just collapsed but it was in third eye bliss. haha.

 

So actually that was just an experiment -- too powerful for the normal healing practice.

 

Usually though the healings we get are no touch - Jim Nance just sits in a chair and waves his hand and you feel the energy deep inside your body -- he says he can see inside bodies. One time though he practiced on me long distance without telling me first - back in 2005 -- the middle of my brain was on fire! haha. I had to stop meditating because it was too powerful.

 

Yeah I'm sure there's a lot of fake "jin" transmissions going on like that other dude in Chicago that got outed for his fake death touch that only worked on his students. I think especially in martial arts - -the students are trained to be afraid of the teacher and to follow the teachers orders no matter what -- and this can lead to all sorts of wild submissive behavior.

 

For example Kow towing actually activates the center of the forehead acupressure point -- so it looks like just crazy submissive behavior but it's part of the training.

 

Anyway I read Gary's qigong bible -- I'm sure he's the real deal -- but I think it would have to be "no touch" for it to be really believable.

 

One time I was in Chunyi Lin's class and the previous week he did long distance healing on this lady's friend - the lady asked for it as her friend was in the hospital. So that next week the lady said her friend had a miraculous recovery right when Chunyi had sent the energy and the lady was sitting in front of me - she was freaking out - -understandably -- as this stuff freaks me out too especially when I have precognition or telepathy, etc.

 

Anyway so Chunyi Lin raises his hands over the top of his head like he is yawning - just nonchalatantly stretching - as the lady is freaking out in front of me. He drops his hands down and with one hand faces his palm towards the lady and suddenly this ball of chi energy hits the lady and she is blasted with bliss energy. I know because I was sitting behind her so I felt the ball of energy hit her and then she immediately calmed down. haha.

 

No one else in the class seemed to even notice what had happened.

Edited February 23, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Wells]

Always up for a good experiment. Anyone else in the Chicagoland area interested in joining me for a test?

 

Best, Jeff

 

That's great! Go for it and report back in this thread!

[Wells]

Anyway I read Gary's qigong bible -- I'm sure he's the real deal -- but I think it would have to be "no touch" for it to be really believable.

 

Yes, I train with his Nei Kung system and feel the results in myself and therefore am sure that he is the real deal!

[henro]

Jeff,

 

as I already pm'd you, it would be great if you would make an appointment with Gary to test his Jing for the Taobums!

 

kind regards,

 

Dorian Black

 

Don't you want to test his fa"jin", and not his "jing" ???? 發勁 vs. 本质

 

If he's knocking you over with his "jing" that's an entirely different thing, and well maybe kind of gross....

[Wells]

Don't you want to test his fa"jin", and not his "jing" ???? 發勁 vs. 本质

 

If he's knocking you over with his "jing" that's an entirely different thing, and well maybe kind of gross....

 

LOL!

Waysun Liao spells it "Jing" since his book "Taichi Classics" in the 70's!

Therefore Jing is equivalent with "internal power" in the Temple Style Taichi school, where Gary was educated!

 

In my personal opinion, Internal Power = Jin = Jing = Essence = Condensed Chi.

If thats true, then the Transfer Of Power = The Transfer Of Essence!

Edited February 23, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Ya Mu]

Wow that's a lot of money -- is Stig rich? Or a ton of people donated?

 

Yeah the issue of "external qi" is a good one as there is already a "gold standard" (randomized controlled) study showing "very impressive" results from "external qi" healing.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20626055

 

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/09/prweb4477844.htm

 

And one thing is that it appears more people are more interested in whether a person can be knocked down than in this type of healing. Good of you to post the links!

Does this relate to what is posted in this thread about "fa jin"? Depends if one thinks fa jin to be qi manipulation or something else entirely, doesn't it.

 

As far as "fa jin", I have experienced the real thing; therefore to me it is very real and I don't need the scientific "proof". The wall I was headed toward was proof enough.

 

So is qi manipulation the same thing but only applied differently? I believe the development is the same; I knocked several people over before I learned control. The one that scared me most was a karate master who was sitting in a chair several feet from me. I thought he was going to get up and kick my tail as he was big and he was bleeding. Instead he signed up for my workshop...whew! I don't do that anymore.

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ya Mu,

 

Thank you for the overview. Now I better understand some of the complexity of their specific goal (not a Facebook person). Some form of scientific documentation of energy/chi transfer seems like a very worthwhile goal (even if there is no money in it ).

 

Best, Jeff

I guess it is a worthwhile goal but I just don't see it changing much in what people wish to believe. I have video's of qi projection out there and most MA comment on "that is impossible" or some such nonsense.The reason it is impossible to them is that most have been unwilling to train in the authentic energy cultivation arts. A few, yes, but not most. My opinion is that very few people, EVEN if it were scientifically proven, are going to be willing to put the time and effort into learning. Drew's post has a link to scientific evidence. Do we see people running from other forms and western medicine to learn this? A few, but it (the study) really didn't change anything concerning the individual time&effort part.

 

Most people, as a whole, would rather read a book or two and become armchair internet experts or stick with their old form of thinking. MAists will mostly stick with their old thinking/training and so will medicine-ists. Come to think of it time&effort suk; think I'll go have a beer. Of course I just got through doing 3 hrs of neigong first.

[chi 2012]

Chunyi Lin said in his Taobums interview "I don't know that anyone, as the state of science stands today, can ever prove without a doubt that qi is real."

 

So, I like what Stig is doing. I think the problem is that modern science has a lack of motivation to find ways to measure and prove this stuff. Henry Ford told his scientists that he wanted a V8 motor....His scientists told him that was impossible - it cant be done. Ford said - "I want it and I will have have it." A year later after many failures the secret was discovered. So there seems to be no motivation whatsoever to prove this stuff in the scientific community. It most likely will never be proven through James Randi - because he only sees and believes - what he wants to see and believe.

[Owledge]

Often the problem is not lack of proof, but lack of information flow.

Effects have been measured in a scientific environment that cannot be explained by anything else than what the practitioner claims.

Also, the credibility of 'paranormal' claims in general is pretty high considering that there's proof for many related things.

Bruno Gröning for example is proof that healing through will (or whatever one wants to call it) can work. Test results were probably simply so puzzling that the cover of slience was put on it. After all, if you observe something you believe can't be true, that your mind cannot handle, how are you expected to do further research in the field?

[chi 2012]

After all, if you observe something you believe can't be true, that your mind cannot handle, how are you expected to do further research in the field?

 

Lots of dollars maybe. People seem to do anything for lots of money.

Edited February 24, 2013 by chi 2012

[Owledge]

Lots of dollars maybe. People seem to do anything for lots of money.

You'd just either present a result that it doesn't exist or make something up then.

[Enishi]

<sup>Science in its "basic" form is simply the practice of the scientific method, along with the assistance of peer-review to help facilitate the process and eliminate error.

Unfortunately however, the practice of science is currently wedded to SCIENCE, the institutional monolith wherein peer review is often seen as some gold plated seal of approval that protects from bias and external pressure and funding, which it doesn't, along the a priori assumption of Materialism wedded to Cartesian Anxiety. So long as the status quo remains in that respect, I'm doubtful that research into Qigong, ESP or other interesting avenues is going to gain much traction.</sup>

Edited February 24, 2013 by Enishi

[voidisyinyang]

Chunyi Lin said in his Taobums interview "I don't know that anyone, as the state of science stands today, can ever prove without a doubt that qi is real."

 

So, I like what Stig is doing. I think the problem is that modern science has a lack of motivation to find ways to measure and prove this stuff. Henry Ford told his scientists that he wanted a V8 motor....His scientists told him that was impossible - it cant be done. Ford said - "I want it and I will have have it." A year later after many failures the secret was discovered. So there seems to be no motivation whatsoever to prove this stuff in the scientific community. It most likely will never be proven through James Randi - because he only sees and believes - what he wants to see and believe.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/16067-interview-with-chunyi-lin-of-spring-forest-qigong/

 

Here's the interview in case anyone wants the context of the quote.

 

 

Instead, he focuses on the results of "qi" based, or "energetic" based practices.

 

Yeah I think what qi is will always be a mystery due to the quantum time-frequency uncertainty principle. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, the quantum biologist, understands this also -- she calls it "quantum jazz."

Edited February 24, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Stigweard]

A few things to respond to...

 

Firstly let me talk about my underlying intent.

 

The world of IMA is a mess right now. With no established system of accountability there are numerous "masters" claiming all sorts of nonsense attracting followers and scamming people out of big dollars.

 

Yet there is not one single scrap of credible evidence that any of their claims are true. Without this credible evidence the IMA is a world-wide joke.

 

[As a side note, there is a growing body of evidence for qigong healing that is being collected at The Qigong Institute ... if only the IMA would follow suit.]

 

The fundamental reason The Fajin Project on FB was started was because of a single question that was asked:

 

"Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?"

 

Let me clarify the terminology.

 

When I say "Subtle Jin" I mean the light or no touch versions ... just touching someone's arm or body and they go bouncey bounce down the hall ... or the no touch versions.

 

Credible evidence, as listed in the brackets, is either proving you can produce Fajin in a real combat environment or in a controlled scientific environment.

 

All of these "experts" in fajin power are claiming that it is this that gives them some sort of superior ability in a combat environment. Why then isn't MMA comps across the world being dominated by fajin experts?? And why is there not a single video clip on Youtube, or anywhere, that shows this skill working in "real life"?

 

A common, and rather worn out response is, "Why would a master subject themselves to such violence and risk of injury just to prove something they already know to be real?"

 

My response is, "Why are they pretending to be superior combatants if they aren't willing to prove it in that environment?"

 

Another response is, "It is too dangerous to demonstrate it on anyone?"

 

OK so if this were true then why do we have all these video demos of teachers performing fajin on students?? The frequent answer here is, "Students are taught how to receive fajin properly."

 

I wonder if anyone else sees the problem in this statement ??

 

Let me spell it out ... it's called preconditioned responses.

 

I recently had a discussion with a chap over at the FB group about a vid of him being bounced around by a certain master. His comment was, "The first time the master tried his no-touch fajin on me it didn't work, I just walked right up to him and touched him. But after training with him for awhile, all of a sudden the fajin worked and I was being bounced away."

 

Errm ???

 

 

This is why there are zip, zilch and zero number of videos of these demos being performed on non-compliant and non-complicit subjects. The students are being preconditioned to react in a certain way according to the "signals" the teacher is giving ... it is a form of collective hypnosis.

 

Back to the line of thought though ... so let's drop the insistence on these "masters" proving their claims in combat. There is a non-violent option which is to conduct a testing protocol where we can replicate what these "masters" are doing on their own students.

 

Rather than detail it here, the testing protocol can be found: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/421119777927083/

 

Now initially it was a rather simple and earnest initiative. Just myself and a few others who really wanted to see some baseline data to be accumulated. And I want to emphasize that ... we were/are simply interested in getting some serious research done to help progress the art.

 

However we were met with the same obtuse carry-on that you are demonstrating here Dorian. Namely egotistical verbosity, ad homien attacks, and lame school-yard threats and challenges.

 

Let me point out that "coming to feel it for myself" is NOT credible evidence. Mere anecdotal evidence and carries no quantification necessary for proper investigation. This is not just about my beliefs or experiences, it is about "advancing the empirical and practical investigation of Fajin within the Chinese Martial Arts".

 

So instead of mature, rational discussion, we were, and obviously still are, met with immature BS as a rather pathetic veneer covering up the fact that noone can satisfactorily answer the pivotal question mentioned above.

 

Actually, to be fair, one "teacher" has given his reasons for not doing the testing, and that was Adam Mizner who has admitted that he won't do any testing because "the mystery is part of what pays the bills". So he would prefer to keep people ignorant of the truth in order to sell his seminar tickets.

 

 

So after putting up with several months of this, we started up the The Fajin Project inviting folks in to "prove" there stuff. Several notables and their groupies have tried to "prove" their shtick using the same old process by saying things like:

 

• Science can never prove the reality of Qi,
• You have to feel it yourself, that's your "evidence",
• If you can't do fajin you haven't learned "real Tai Chi",
• How dare you disrespect me by asking these questions,
• Real fajin is counter-intuitive and thus cannot be rationalized,
• Blah blah blah.

Inevitably they end up saying lots but just as inevitably fail to answer the pivotal question:

"Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?"

It has also been an invariable case that every one of these masters quickly fades away behind a well rehearsed list of "exit clauses" as soon as the testing protocol is put before them.

 

Let me emphasize here, yes Qi energy cannot be measured directly, as in being able to measure it in the same way we can measure light frequency, or heat etc. But the effects of this Fajin power CAN be measured ... in fact all the vids you see on Youtube is these "masters" trying to prove that they are demonstrating fajin in a measurable way.

 

The problem here is that, invariably, ALL the "tests" are done on compliant and complicit students of said teacher. Thus EVERY one of these videos are disqualified as "credible evidence".

 

All we are saying is, "lets reproduce your demos but lets do it in a controlled environment using as close to a double blind study as possible."

 

Now it was suggested in the process, "Why don't you just put impact sensors on a bag?"

 

Great idea!!

 

But no, according to Exit Clause #293, it will only work on a living being.

 

"Well, why don't you do it on an animal like a horse? You know, do your fajinny thing and make the horse bounce ???"

 

Well according to Exit Clause #345 it only really works on a human being.

 

"Well, how about we get a bunch of MMA boys together and you can demonstrate your thing on them??"

 

Exit Clause #8874: No I might hurt them too bad, they must be "prepared" to receive my uber-awesome-hit-like-a-small-truck power first.

 

At this point most of these "teachers" resort to insults and threats.

 

Let me reemphasize something ... whilst we may not be able to measure the "stuff" producing the power (i.e. qi, jin, etc), we CAN measure the outputting results by its effect on another object. As a synonymous example, the Qigong Institute have a study that shows the growth rate of bacteria in a petri dish can be manipulated by a qigong master depending on his intent ...

 

How friggen fantastic is that !!!

 

They haven't measured Qi, but they are showing that "it" can have an influence on another organism.

 

So the question remains ... why don't any of these "teachers" have the testicular fortitude to step up and prove their schtick in a controlled scientific environment??

 

There is $1.5million in prize money available to them if they do ...

[Stigweard]

Hi Stigweard,

 

What would constitute (be acceptable as) scientific "evidence" for such a test? Does it need to be measured on some level by a machine? Or, is there any approach in which it is "felt" by people? Maybe, something that would also show a change in brainwave activity?

 

Thanks, Jeff

 

P.s. do you personally feel you own internal energy flows?

 

Hi Jeff, thanks for your inquiry

 

We are not trying to directly measure Qi, or Jin etc. We are trying to firstly establish and verify with credible evidence that these "masters" are in fact able to make a person "sheer of their feet and bounce away" with minimal contact (we are not even trying to examine the no-touch version). By minimal contact we mean either the master only lightly touches the subject, or the subject light touches the master, the subject is bounced away with no sign of body movement that would imply a push using muscle power (Wai Jin or Li).

 

So the first step is to verify the claims in a clear "success" of "failure" format.

 

With that established then the "how" and "why" questions can be explored.

 

[Stigweard]

Hi Jeff,

He and others have a lot of stuff posted on thefajin project on facebook,; he gave a link earlier. I did read through some of it and from what I could get from it is that they are looking for repeatable (how many times is enough?) ability to knock someone over without touching. (Stig can make this clear if I am wrong) The group appears to me to have no interest whatsoever in qi projection, appear to totally discount it, and are focused on the martial aspects of fa jin. I have found that few MA understand the concept of wai qi liao fa and only talk about fa jin in terms of knockouts. So I think change in brainwave activity, which a lot of us can demonstrate, is nothing they are interested in.

I think Stig is an honest upright fellow so I do believe his intentions are honorable.

 

I also know that qi projection/qi manipulation is variable (and even if fa jin were entirely different [not IMO], it would be as well) and that it would be extremely difficult to impossible to have repeatable same amplitude measurements, even if we did have the evolved instrumentation, due to dynamics of energy flow. Too many variables which can not be eliminated. Yes, an average could be demonstrated, if such instrumentation were available, but not over and over repeatability of same amplitude. Of course this is a moot point for those that believe fa jin is something else entirely than qi projection or manipulation of qi.

 

Thanks for this my friend

 

It is not that I/we discount "qi projection", it is just that I am keeping things primarily focused on the phenomena of "light touch" fajin within the martial application of the Internal Martial Arts.

 

How many times is enough?? Well I have set a rather conservative figure of 6 out of 10 equals success. Meaning that if you are able to "bounce" 6 out of 10 subjects (i.e. randomly selected, non-compliant, non-complicit) than that would equate to an overall "success" for the test.

 

There are different "theories" about the mechanism of fajin ... some say outright that it is a projection of Qi or Jin creating the force ... others postulate that it is a "signal" that creates an involuntary bio-mechanical response.

 

I personally don't care for such postulation until credible evidence that proves its validity is provided.

 

[Stigweard]

@Jeff

Michael Phillips describes it as a hydraulic pulse wave that is emitted from your tantien and that flows through your body fluids over your hands into the body of your opponent. Strangely enough, Phillips had some impressive videos on youtube and deleted them shortly after I posted them here in another thread. In those videos, you could see his forearms vibrate, when he delivered this kinetic/hydraulic pulse wave and his opponent went flying!

 

A couple of friends of mine tested Michael Phillips at a public seminar and he could not produce anything more than a rather sad little pulse against someone who wasn't compliant.

 

You can read about it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/permalink/460713917301002/

 

I will emphasize though that this is still only anecdotal evidence so no concrete conclusions can be made ... further testing would be required Interesting that all his videos vanished from the web at exactly the same time as the above mentioned event

Edited February 24, 2013 by Stigweard

[Guest munky]

-

Edited October 9, 2014 by munky

[Stigweard]

There is an explanation in Power of Internal Martial Arts book by Bruce Frantzis. Masters that use empty force, which is seen in those videos where the master does some light touch or doesn't touch the student at all and can physically move them however they want. His explanation is consistent with all the discussions about how it doesn't work on non students.

 

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=8cU3iwsCCM4C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=empty%20force&f=false

 

Click on page 185 and read it.

Hypnosis is more like a trance state so i wouldnt call it that. From what i know in empty force the master is defninitely projecting his energy and influencing the student' energy but there must be a connection and a willingness to be influenced. Moreover, i believe you get "better" at being the recepient of empty force from the master as you improve your practice and become more sensitive to chi flow. As Bruce describes in the book it can be used as training to develop chi sensitivity, so when in a real combat situation with an opponent (where you definitely will not be willing to let them physically move you with their chi) you can feel their and respond to it before they touch you.

 

We must first ask how exactly are we defining fa jin as i dont think fa jin and empty force are the same thing. If we want to know if light touch is considered fa jin or empty force, ask those masters if they could do the same thing without touching their student/oipponent. Fa jin would probably be able to be measured since it is more physical. The neigong skill involved in fa jin with the chi release and projection has basis in the physical body producing force (i.e changing pressures in the body, adjusting subtle alignments for maximum foce generation, synchronised openings and closings of joints, fluids inside cavities and movements of the fascia and soft tissues of the body with the mind as one unit producing force etc..)

Fa jin needs to make contact with the other in some way to apply the internal power needed but empty force you might be projecting your qi from distance or your mind or shen to try and move the other person

 

A well considered response with some good referencing ... thank you.

 

Agreement on terminology, as you have indicated, is vital. The term "fajin" can immediately mean different things to different people depending on their training and biases.

 

Some folks, especially "believers" of the paranormal type fajin, would say that kong jin and fa jin are synonymous.

 

In the article I posted in the OP, I have intentionally referenced Jin in very mundane and pragmatic terms. I feel that there is too much "mystic" talk in the internal martial arts and that people are getting too caught up on these abstract concepts. They are getting too involved in chasing "energies" and "powers" and leaving behind the practical world of the raw body as it is. They are leaving behind the reality of practical marital arts in the hope and faith of developing something "special".

 

My "endeavor" with putting forth the thoughts in this article is to bring these terms into pragmatic realms that are practically useful and applicable to practitioners.

 

[Wells]

A couple of friends of mine tested Michael Phillips at a public seminar and he could not produce anything more than a rather sad little pulse against someone who wasn't compliant.

 

You can read about it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/permalink/460713917301002/

 

I will emphasize though that this is still only anecdotal evidence so no concrete conclusions can be made ... further testing would be required Interesting that all his videos vanished from the web at exactly the same time as the above mentioned event

 

Stig,

 

why do you hide your proof against Michael Phillips in the exclusive "facebook-club" so it can't be accessed openly in the internet?

I have no interest in giving personal data to that spy-site, therefore I deleted my account already years ago!

I can't read what you write there!

 

Do you have more than only "anecdotal evidence" of that incident, like a video?

Where can I watch it on youtube?

 

If you have a video of that incident but not uploaded, give it to me and I personally upload it at my youtube channel!

[Wells]

Stig,

 

btw did your friends explicitely ask Michael Phillips to knock them out with his fajin?

Or why do they claim that he "could not produce anything more than a rather sad little pulse" against them?

On a public seminar, I doubt that he would risk to hurt someone with using all of his force!

Maybe he only wanted to produce enough force that the people understand that his system works but certainly he would not produce so much force that he would hurt someone!

[Stigweard]

Stig,

 

why do you hide your proof against Michael Phillips in the exclusive "facebook-club" so it can't be accessed openly in the internet?

I have no interest in giving personal data to that spy-site, therefore I deleted my account already years ago!

I can't read what you write there!

 

Do you have more than only "anecdotal evidence" of that incident, like a video?

Where can I watch it on youtube?

 

If you have a video of that incident but not uploaded, give it to me and I personally upload it at my youtube channel!

 

Firstly it isn't "proof" ... even though I very much trust the gentlemen involved, I will hold myself to the same standards of relying only on credible proof one way or the other. Unfortunately there was no video made of the encounter, but I also have Michael Phillips' confession that he was unable to produce his "fajin" on either of the gentlemen involved.

 

Secondly I am not "hiding" anything ... it just so happens that I interact on FB and this is where the "encounter" was reported.

 

I am not in the business to deliberately try and debunk or defame anyone. I would love to see some proper empirical evidence emerging because there are a shite-load of people deluding themselves and the people they are teaching.

 

If your sifu can provide it then "Huzzah!!" ... I would love to see it happen, because then we can zero in on some training techniques that are effective. But nothing you have offered so far carries any weight of credible evidence. Even if I did go and touch Gary, which I am more than happy to do if the opportunity arose, and if he did make me bounce me on my arse, that is still not credible evidence. Sure it might convince me, but then I would be just another groupie spamming about claims that cannot be held with confidence as credible evidence.

 

btw did your friends explicitely ask Michael Phillips to knock them out with his fajin?

Or why do they claim that he "could not produce anything more than a rather sad little pulse" against them?

On a public seminar, I doubt that he would risk to hurt someone with using all of his force!

Maybe he only wanted to produce enough force that the people understand that his system works but certainly he would not produce so much force that he would hurt someone!

 

Firstly it wasn't his seminar, as in a seminar he was teaching at, it was at another "teacher's" seminar. Apparently he was mouthing off and being a general "know it all", someone got the shits with that and asked to feel his fajin. Apparently, and this is confirmed by Michael, he actually tried in earnest ... and failed.

 

But again, apart from at least a small degree of satisfaction I gained in hearing about it (and even being a part of the reporting of it), I still cannot use this as proof that "fajin doesn't work". There are too many variables involved, too many "maybes".

 

The reality is that there are many frauds and self-deluded people in the IMA today. They have a free reign because there is no accountability required. "Exit clauses" have be hard-wired into the "culture" of the art whereby teachers can excuse themselves from undergoing this sort of scrutiny. I think it is time the confusion ended.

 

[shanlung]

 

 

 

My "endeavor" with putting forth the thoughts in this article is to bring these terms into pragmatic realms that are practically useful and applicable to practitioners.

 

 

Fa jing is real.

 

Sadly frauds and charlatans are real too.

There were already far too many of them in my time and looks like they bred even more in your time.

The worse of the lot will be the kong jin , that they can fah without touching.

 

I wish you you well and that one day, you meet one of those MASTER as against a mere master no matter how loud that dime a dozen master proclaimed himself to be.

 

Nothing I can write, or you have read, will prepare you enough for that.

I promise you, you will find it real fun, even if you cannot believe whatever is happening to you.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Wells]

If your sifu can provide it then "Huzzah!!" ... I would love to see it happen, because then we can zero in on some training techniques that are effective. But nothing you have offered so far carries any weight of credible evidence. Even if I did go and touch Gary, which I am more than happy to do if the opportunity arose, and if he did make me bounce me on my arse, that is still not credible evidence. Sure it might convince me, but then I would be just another groupie spamming about claims that cannot be held with confidence as credible evidence.

 

According to the kinetic wave phenomens I can feel in my body thanks to Gary's Nei Kung system, I'm sure that he can use and produce that vibration in such a magnitude and concentration, that he can knock people out with it.

Why don't you contact him directly and tell him the exact details of your challenge, which I still don't know because I can't access facebook!?

If it's like "knocking several people out with fajin under the watch of a scientist in Chicago and then he gets $1.5 million guaranteed", he's maybe interested!

 

 

Firstly it wasn't his seminar, as in a seminar he was teaching at, it was at another "teacher's" seminar. Apparently he was mouthing off and being a general "know it all", someone got the shits with that and asked to feel his fajin. Apparently, and this is confirmed by Michael, he actually tried in earnest ... and failed.

 

But again, apart from at least a small degree of satisfaction I gained in hearing about it (and even being a part of the reporting of it), I still cannot use this as proof that "fajin doesn't work". There are too many variables involved, too many "maybes".

 

The reality is that there are many frauds and self-deluded people in the IMA today. They have a free reign because there is no accountability required. "Exit clauses" have be hard-wired into the "culture" of the art whereby teachers can excuse themselves from undergoing this sort of scrutiny. I think it is time the confusion ended.

 

If I develop Fajin because of Gary's training, the first test object will be a big bull or a big horse and it will be filmed, to be unable to fool myself.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Ya Mu]

Thanks for this my friend

 

It is not that I/we discount "qi projection", it is just that I am keeping things primarily focused on the phenomena of "light touch" fajin within the martial application of the Internal Martial Arts.

 

How many times is enough?? Well I have set a rather conservative figure of 6 out of 10 equals success. Meaning that if you are able to "bounce" 6 out of 10 subjects (i.e. randomly selected, non-compliant, non-complicit) than that would equate to an overall "success" for the test.

 

There are different "theories" about the mechanism of fajin ... some say outright that it is a projection of Qi or Jin creating the force ... others postulate that it is a "signal" that creates an involuntary bio-mechanical response.

 

I personally don't care for such postulation until credible evidence that proves its validity is provided.

 

The "discount qi projection" was not referring to you personally but comes as feedback from my one-time postings on the facebook group. Most that post there are simply not interested in the overall subject of qi but only if they can knock someone over, which I do understand is the purpose of MA. The majority there do not believe in such a thing as qi projection and won't believe in such a thing as they (the majority) all have hard-core beliefs. But this is certainly not limited to your facebook group as it is just a reflection of the overall population.

 

I have had world class martial artists in my neigong classes and certainly a few do get it, but the majority never will as they are only willing to put the gongfu into their knock-down abilities and never make the connection between their internal/immortal self and the physical self to think they may develop further/faster by putting the gongfu into that aspect. A few do.

 

It is not that I don't think you have been pursuing a worthwhile goal or that I think you are out to discredit certain people or anything like that. 6 out of 10 tries should certainly be fair. I do not think you will ever see it due, as I said earlier, to the dynamic aspect of qi (drew referred to the quantum aspect - good).

 

Are there a very few who are capable of repeatable ability to do this? I think so but also perhaps numbered on one hand. The master who did it to me had practiced many hours a day since age 6 and was 93 years old. So gongfu is the name of the game. Also, I had only just met him for 10 or 15 minutes when he did it and had no preconceptions of that type of martial ability. However, and this does appear to be a big however, I was already sensitive to qi. So I certainly can't say this is not a factor and in fact do believe it is a factor for most people.

 

Is it dependent on a person being sensitive to qi? I think, for the majority of practitioners this is a fair assumption as the people I knocked over, even if they were not my students and had never met me before, ended up studying with me due to that very sensitivity. As I said earlier I have learned, through control, not to throw qi in that manner so as to insure it doesn't happen, as I am only interested in the healing/transformation aspect of the qi projection. The general population runs from 0 to 100 in terms of qi sensitivity.

 

On the opposite side of the coin, I have found, however, that the healing aspect is most certainly not dependent on that qi sensitivity. It would follow that the knock down aspect is not either. I personally have never investigated nor purposefully attempted to further this.

 

I hope you do find someone who can do this with your tests. It would be interesting to see.

 

Best to you! Gonna still wish for opportunity to catch up for that fishing trip!