$1.5million Fajin Challenge

[Owledge]

O.K. for example Chunyi Lin said he was in a double blind study to heal fibromylagia or however it's spelled -- but Chunyi Lin, as a control, was supposed to "fake" heal people sometimes -- so just pretend to do the healing but not transmit any energy. He said this did not work because he can read their blockages and then it is like a holographic experience. So he can not pretend not to heal them because it seems that healing the other person also helps heal himself when he reads the blockages.

This to me sounds like a convenient excuse because: Why doesn't he just NOT feel into people. I mean, come on, he has to be able to be near people without probing all their blockages. Because if he can't, it would mean that the mere presence of him is a constant healing transmission. It would imply that he has a problematic dependency.

[Wells]

Regarding media attention I suspect that the corrupt corporate media has made it part of their agenda to discredit the arts by selectively present only those who fail at what they do.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuqkP5Mic2U

[Owledge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuqkP5Mic2U

OK, History Channel is not a prime example of corrupt media. Shaolin monks are usally treated as a kind of circus attraction. When an aura of mystery can be created, it's usually tolerated.

A few things bother me in that video, like it's intentionally made vage and ambiguous. The commentator confused pressure. First it is said that 50 pounds per square inch would equal maybe 100 or 200 pounds on the area of the drill tip. Later he says 200 pounds per square inch. What makes the whole thing unscientific and kind of less than spectacular is the fact that there's no comparative test. They could have tested that drill on animal flesh for example or similar substances, maybe leather. Because drills are optimized for penetrating certain types of material, and skin is none of those.

Also, they didn't say how much pressure they applied to drill through the plank of wood.

Then, they said the monk applied pressure as if a heavy weight boxer was standing on the end of the drill. Really? I wanna see that without injury, even without the drill spinning. They might have confused that one, too.

 

So as I said, the whole thing is still on the level of circus attractions. It's nowhere in the realm of what would be called 'magic' by laymen, because that area is pretty scary to people who fear anything that might challenge their perceived superiority.

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah if people want to hide out in their respective disciplines without searching out real qigong masters then obviously no one can force someone -- will I mean I guess Wang Liping was tied down into full lotus position for four hours by a couple qigong masters but that's different. haha.

 

For example consider these undergraduate atheists going bonkers over the "randomized controlled" study proving "external qi" healing....

 

http://anamericanatheist.org/2011/10/29/investigating-woo-spring-forest-qigong-research/

 

http://anamericanatheist.org/2012/04/17/investigating-woo-the-dark-side-of-qigong-testimonials/

 

So basically they said the study was just a placebo effect to which I replied -- hey call it whatever you want but if it works it works! haha.

 

Then I pointed out all the Spring Forest Qigong testimonials of severe conditions being healed but the atheists said they don't need to believe them, etc.

 

So basically the people with severe conditions are getting healed and then you have some spoiled cry babies with special needs going -- "Mommy mommy I can't find what I want at the mall!" haha.

 

Another term for this is:

 

willful ignorance

[Owledge]

@pythagoreanfulllotus

Yeah, it's common. People not actually interested in truth, but in solidifying their belief system. Strong disbelief is not scepticism.

It's part of the socially conditioned need to be right. Being wrong is usually met with some self-confidence destroying blows.

People who generally don't believe any of those healing techniques to work I keep pointing to the name Bruno Gröning. One of the most able and at the same time most scientifically tested spiritual healers of all time.

[Stigweard]

Hi all,

 

I had another few rounds of brief emails with Gary last night. It has been somewhat challenging to get direct responses to my questions. But, this is where things currently stand...

 

-Gary is willing to do a test.

-He needs direct contact as shown in the video for the blow (which leaves the push concept very open).

-He states that he can transmit energy without direct contact and that is a normal part of his healing sessions.

-After repeated direct followup questions, he has said that I should be able to feel an energy transfer by just touching him.

-His email demeanor is very different than most spiritual types that I have had discussions with.

 

Given what I know so far (with the push-like contact), I think it is unlikely that i would be able to form an experiment with Gary that would meet Stigweards criteria. Also, since I am not a martial arts guy, i wonder/doubt if I would be able to tell if it was just a very fast finger movement. So, I am open to suggestions on the test concept. Should I take the test myself, or...

 

- just touch Gary and see if I can feel a blow or any energy transfer?

- instead talk my martial arts experienced friend into taking the test and see if he notices anything?

- pay Gary's fee for a session and get a feel for the energy transfer level (with no contact) and compare it to other healers that I know?

- pass and we look for someone else with martial arts experience in the Chicago area to take the test?

 

Best, Jeff

 

(edit - weird format problem)

 

Heya Jeff,

 

Perhaps you are getting an insight into what I have been dealing with for the last few years with this "project"

 

Whilst getting clarity on "what fajin should look like", I have been diligent to get agreement from "those that do it". Here then is a "Definition of Subtle Fajin" that we are using in the aforementioned testing protocol:

 

• specifically does not rely upon nor adhere to Newton's Second Law of Force (i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration),
• with the demonstrator standing with feet parallel with someone at least their own size facing them in a well-rooted stance of their choice (e.g. classical bow stance etc.), the demonstrator can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet. Both feet lift off the ground at the same time and land and the same time.
• whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if the demonstrator's elbows accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT "Subtle Fajin",
• to reemphasize, the wrists and elbows of the person issuing "Subtle Fajin" do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles,
• does not use the physical force generated by agonist (prime mover) muscle contraction (that is typical of ordinary forms of movement) beyond some absolute minimum amount that is required to keep the body structure together and upright,
• no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists that would signify the use of muscular engagement to produce the force,
• the subject (i.e. the person being pushed) shows no sign of initiating their reactive movement, i.e. there is no sign of the subject pushing with their legs that would imply a "jump" backwards, nor pushing back off the Demonstrator's arms with their hands.

Most of these terms are the very words of folks like Michael Phillips, Adam Mizner etc. themselves. I have merely collected and collated them through the extensive "discussions" I had directly with these "teachers" and then got confirmation from them that these details are correct.

 

The earlier list of stipulations is to ensure that the requisites of this definition are adhered to. Personally I would not even consider the credibility of test unless it used conformed to those stipulations. I will emphasize here though that no confidence could be garnered from you visiting Garry in terms of evidence one way or the other due to in not being in a controlled environment and the procedure would be a very long way from being a double-blind protocol.

 

Quite specifically I would not let him touch any other part of your body accept your forearms, or as I indicated, you touching his forearms. In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration. Adhering to "fajin theory", that is all the touch required to transfer "jin" in the way that is claimed.

 

http://youtu.be/FZf5efMQqwY

[Owledge]

This video shows Phillips moving forward with increasing intensity and thus could explain a lot of the increasing degree of backwards motion of the test subject. The test subject stiffened up all the time and I didn't see any shockwave.

If at all, this LOOKS like Bruce Lee stuff.

By the way, could it be that Bruce Lee developed fa jin un/knowingly? How do you analyze the one-inch-punch in this regards?

Edited February 25, 2013 by Owledge

[voidisyinyang]

@pythagoreanfulllotus

Yeah, it's common. People not actually interested in truth, but in solidifying their belief system. Strong disbelief is not scepticism.

It's part of the socially conditioned need to be right. Being wrong is usually met with some self-confidence destroying blows.

People who generally don't believe any of those healing techniques to work I keep pointing to the name Bruno Gröning. One of the most able and at the same time most scientifically tested spiritual healers of all time.

 

The Miracle Apostle

 

http://www.unoa.info/the-phenomenon-bruno-groning/?lang=en

 

O.k. that's the doc on him so I will watch it - -thanks!

[templetao]

The man in the video has jing but not lin kong jing there are levels of attainment with jing. Just because you have jing doesnt mean you can do distance power. An practitioners who believe that still have alot to learn about jing.

 

But jing is a big big subject which can take decades to understand.

Edited February 25, 2013 by templetao

[Owledge]

The Miracle Apostle

 

http://www.unoa.info/the-phenomenon-bruno-groning/?lang=en

 

O.k. that's the doc on him so I will watch it - -thanks!

Cool, they have the full length thing there.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Owledge

[templetao]

To give a small sample of what im talking ill list some of what i know about jing.

 

Jing can be manifested as sparks, waves, magnetic, heat, and light.

 

and there are sub categories in that as well. Like healing jing destructive jing and so on.

 

It took me a long time to learn all this.

 

If your going to study jing or fa jing then you should be well versed in jing theory.

 

If what i said above is new to you then you still have a lot to learn about jing.

Edited February 25, 2013 by templetao

[Kasuku]

Okay any of you remember the part in opening the dragon gate where Wang liping does the five thunder palm on the wolves.... okay let me quote it:

"Wang Liping had no plan of action. Figuring he'd been trapped by the masters, he decided to employ inner power. Working up energy combining inner forces at their source, he raised his right palm. "Don't kill any of them," the grand master suddenly called. "Just use thirty percent of your power," quickly added the Wayfarer of Pure Serenity." Let them live." With these instructions in mind, Wang Liping thrust his palm out violently. A beam of white light flashed, and several of the wolves collapsed motionless on the ground without a sound."

and "What Wang Liping used here was the Five Thunder Palm. This power emerges swift as lightning, with tremendous force. The extraordinary thing about this is that the victim shows no external sign of injury; the power enters inside the body with an explosive force, capable of damaging the internal organs by the shock. Among Taoists, this palm strike has historically been used only for defense, never for aggression."

 

Would this be still labeled as jing? I have heard that at advanced levels one absorbes the power of thunder into the body... is this a different category of internal power... hmm what you think guys... btw im new

[Owledge]

I have heard that at advanced levels one absorbes the power of thunder into the body... is this a different category of internal power... hmm what you think guys...

I think that causes explosive diarrhea.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Owledge

[templetao]

Okay any of you remember the part in opening the dragon gate where Wang liping does the five thunder palm on the wolves.... okay let me quote it:

"Wang Liping had no plan of action. Figuring he'd been trapped by the masters, he decided to employ inner power. Working up energy combining inner forces at their source, he raised his right palm. "Don't kill any of them," the grand master suddenly called. "Just use thirty percent of your power," quickly added the Wayfarer of Pure Serenity." Let them live." With these instructions in mind, Wang Liping thrust his palm out violently. A beam of white light flashed, and several of the wolves collapsed motionless on the ground without a sound."

and "What Wang Liping used here was the Five Thunder Palm. This power emerges swift as lightning, with tremendous force. The extraordinary thing about this is that the victim shows no external sign of injury; the power enters inside the body with an explosive force, capable of damaging the internal organs by the shock. Among Taoists, this palm strike has historically been used only for defense, never for aggression."

 

Would this be still labeled as jing? I have heard that at advanced levels one absorbes the power of thunder into the body... is this a different category of internal power... hmm what you think guys... btw im new

 

Yes that would be jing as well. A very particular type of jing as well.

 

Heres the thing that most practitioners dont know. Most if not all internal palms deal with jing but there are different types of jing.

 

Kungfu styles has different types of jing.

Internal martial arts has different types of jing

Taoist preists has different types of jing

 

it is this that makes up the different type of palms and strikes.

 

Some of these use similar or the same jing expressions but they all have their own unique jing expressions or internal palm strike and method to develop it.

 

That strike sounds like it from taoist thunder magic.

[Kasuku]

I think that causes explosive diarrhea.

LOL think you'd need special portable bathrooms for this then!... but more seriously to an earlier post, i doubt bruce developed any fajin or jing or any sort of internal power (external methods do not produce internal results)

[Kasuku]

so then that means there is much more to jing than deciding speed, frequency and amplitude of the vibration... i would imagine simply vibrating your developed dense core jing youve stored at a very fast frequency would not produce something like that five thunder palm

[templetao]

I use to think the same thing to about jing until i spoke to and learned from other internal masters.

 

Jing has another definition of manifested internal power. This power is mostly expressed in some type of palm strike the cultivation of this and the strike actually makes up some whole cultivation methods.

 

There are palm strikes that can cause cancer which is a particular jing expression.

[voidisyinyang]

Okay any of you remember the part in opening the dragon gate where Wang liping does the five thunder palm on the wolves.... okay let me quote it:

"Wang Liping had no plan of action. Figuring he'd been trapped by the masters, he decided to employ inner power. Working up energy combining inner forces at their source, he raised his right palm. "Don't kill any of them," the grand master suddenly called. "Just use thirty percent of your power," quickly added the Wayfarer of Pure Serenity." Let them live." With these instructions in mind, Wang Liping thrust his palm out violently. A beam of white light flashed, and several of the wolves collapsed motionless on the ground without a sound."

and "What Wang Liping used here was the Five Thunder Palm. This power emerges swift as lightning, with tremendous force. The extraordinary thing about this is that the victim shows no external sign of injury; the power enters inside the body with an explosive force, capable of damaging the internal organs by the shock. Among Taoists, this palm strike has historically been used only for defense, never for aggression."

 

Would this be still labeled as jing? I have heard that at advanced levels one absorbes the power of thunder into the body... is this a different category of internal power... hmm what you think guys... btw im new

 

shooting out light would be a shen transmission.

 

Tai Chi focuses on transmitting chi energy. It's called jing because you create chi from stored up jing energy that is transformed. Shen energy is created from chi energy and the shen transmission is more the focus of qigong masters while the chi transmission is more the focus of tai chi masters.

[templetao]

shooting out light would be a shen transmission.

 

Tai Chi focuses on transmitting chi energy. It's called jing because you create chi from stored up jing energy that is transformed. Shen energy is created from chi energy and the shen transmission is more the focus of qigong masters while the chi transmission is more the focus of tai chi masters.

 

True but some what incorrect for numerous reasons like most taichi masters are also qigong masters and that jing transmutes to shen in time but that does not mean you can manifest your internal power as light. To express your internal power as light is a technique and not always directly linked to the same level of internal alchemy.

 

Like i said before Jing has another meaning as manifest internal power and there are many different types of expression.

Edited February 26, 2013 by templetao

[Ya Mu]

shooting out light would be a shen transmission.

 

Tai Chi focuses on transmitting chi energy. It's called jing because you create chi from stored up jing energy that is transformed. Shen energy is created from chi energy and the shen transmission is more the focus of qigong masters while the chi transmission is more the focus of tai chi masters.

True for accomplished qigong masters. Many on the qigong circuit, however, are not transmitting shen energy (methinks you are spoiled being around your teacher - try going to a qigong convention) . Glad you posted this distinction.

[Kasuku]

yes but remember JC showing the light of yang chi in a ping pong ball

[Ya Mu]

True but some what incorrect for numerous reasons like most taichi masters are also qigong masters and that jing transmutes to shen in time but that does not mean you can manifest your internal power as light. To express your internal power as light is a technique and not always directly linked to the same level of internal alchemy.

...

 

Curious as to where do you live that this is so?

I have not seen this in the USA.

 

edit: Good point about manifesting Light; indeed it is a different level.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Ya Mu

[templetao]

most taichi masters are also qigong masters

 

 

Your right i think what was wrong in my statement was the word most.

[Stigweard]

Excuse me for taking this back to the OP, and please excuse the appearance of speaking "against" other people's views, but I would like to return to the point that we need to be very grounded and pragmatic in our approach to "power" in the internal martial arts.

 

Too readily, it would seem to me, people are wanting to believe in something special ... they would prefer the faith-belief in a fantasy rather just embracing plain old reality as it is.

 

Tai Chi Chuan, for example, is such an exquisitely beautiful and philosophically rich art that you could study the fundamental principles your whole life and never once have to mention Qi or Shen or any other mystic concept. Please don't read this as me advocating against these terms or concepts, I am merely pointing out that there is massive corpus of knowledge to embody as a prerequisite before even starting to consider the deeper metaphysics.

 

• Sung gong,
• Daolu,
• Chan Si Jin,
• Wu Gong,
• Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, Bagua applications,
• Tui Shou, Da Lu, etc.
• Shi San Shi, the thirteen postures, including Bai Men, the eight gates, and Wu Bu, the five steps,
• Wai Jins like: duan jin – breaking power, chuang jin – ramming power, cun jin – one inch power, dou jin – shaking power, chong jin – charging power, etc.
• Nei Jins like: chen jin – sinking power, ting jin - listening power, zhan jin – adhering power, nian jin – sticking power, sui jin – following power, etc.
• Si Zheng Tui Shou, the four hands of push hands, Peng, Lu, Ji, An,
• Using all the above in Fangshen/San Shou, fighting application: Da - Striking, Ti - Kicking, Na - Grappling, Shuai - Wrestling.

Crikey !!! That is a good 10 to 20 years of training right there, and all of it can be learned without the crazy talk of "super powers".

 

My point here, and my point in the original article, is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.

[Kasuku]

hmm lol studying taiji for 20 years and not yet grasping its internal aspects..

how on earth would you use jing if you haven't even known chi.

have you read taiji classics by waysun liao? or even the treatise of Chang San Feng!

 

hahah chi is definitely not faith belief, once you feel it bubbling in your dan tian then you'll know for sure no one has tricked you!