The Nature of the Dao De Jing

[taijistudent]

Recently I read a translation of Chapter 50 which was quite different from many other interpretations that I have read. In this particular translation, Chapter 50 was seen as a commentary on the nature of the cycle of life and death. When one enters one they begin their journey into the other. This is very much in accordance with the nature of the Yi Jing.

 

On this forum, I have read several threads which discussed the possible origins. It seems to me that it is quite plausible that the Dao De Jing can be interpreted as a group of songs or chants from ancient times as opposed to a doctrine of instructions. As a book of chants, it would explain the repetition of themes, just as one would find in a modern books of chants. The songs themselves would make sense as experiences as well as hopes are chanted together as a group.

 

Most of the translations I have looked at seem to be wanting, but I do find the one by McDonald as one that seems to echo the theme of knowledge, wisdom, as well as group hope. It also meshes well with what I have learned in my other studies.

 

http://www.thenazareneway.com/tao_te_ching.htm

 

I welcome comments.

[manitou]

This is the part you're talking about?

 

Those who leave the womb at birth
and those who enter their source at death,
of these; three out of ten celebrate life,
three out of ten celebrate death,
and three out of ten simply go from life to death.
What is the reason for this?
Because they are afraid of dying,
therefore they can not live.

I have heard that those who celebrate life
walk safely among the wild animals.
When they go into battle, they remain unharmed.
The animals find no place to attack them
and the weapons are unable to harm them.
Why? Because they can find no place for death in them.

 

 

That is an interesting translation. If three out of 10 leave the womb at birth and celebrate life, what do the other 7 do? Do you think this can be an allusion to the bardos? That perhaps 3 out of ten (of livers) and 3 out of ten (of diers) both enter into life and death without hesitation, with abandonment? Is this the formula? (If so, I'd say it's a little generous, because it doesn't seem to me that 3 out of 10 celebrate life at all. Are the other 7 treading water through life? This is possible, I suppose.

 

and the 3 out of 10 that go straight from life to death..this would assume no bardos? I don't know - what do you think?

 

In the Yutang translation, he dwells on he organs of life and death as being 13 (in ch. 50) and he claims that these 13 organs also send man to his death. Then he says 'how is it so?'...Because of the intense activity of multiplying life.

 

Hard to reconcile these two translations, but I love trying to find the lowest common denominator.

 

So the 3 out of 10 that celebrate life are the ones who are unmolested by wild animals, etc. Mu guess is that to celebrate life, one must be in total awareness. I sometimes wonder, when I walk in the woods and one of these days I'm going to come face to face with a big hairy bear.....will I be able to hold my ground and stand 'in awareness of Who I Am', or am I going to run screaming down the trail like a little girl? I hope it would be the former.

 

Could you go a little deeper into your thoughts on this? I'm looking for a different translation to help us triangulate but not seeing it on my desk right now - I'll find it later.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I like talking about the cycles that can be seen throughout the universe. And reversion is a part of these cycles. We are born into life. We are supposed to live it to its maximum potential. (To our, each individual, maximum capacity and capability.) The cycle is complete when we die. We must never fear death otherwise we will not be able to live to the fullest. But that doesn't mean that we should be reckless. Not being reckless is why the Sage can walk amongst the wild animals and not be harmed or go into battle and not be killed.

[manitou]

. Not being reckless is why the Sage can walk amongst the wild animals and not be harmed or go into battle and not be killed.

 

Well hello, Mr. MH -

 

I interpret that a different way. I think the sage, when harm appears to be upon him, will revert to the mindset of all phenomena being illusory and that is where his protection will be. Somehow, there is something inside me that Knows this. Yes, the recklessness (or lack of it) thing is very human and the logical answer. I'm just not convinced that's what it's saying. I think it's actually something spookier than not being reckless.

 

Stephen Mitchell has a really nice way of putting the first part of this, having to do with living and dying:

 

The Master gives himself up

to whatever the moment brings (this right here is worth the price of admission!)

He knows that he is going to die,

and he has nothing left to hold on to;

no illusions in his mind,

no resistances in his body.

He doesn't think about his actions;

they flow from the core of his being.

He holds nothing back from life;

therefore he is ready for death,

as a man is ready for sleep

after a good day's work.

 

 

I think he doesn't think about his actions because if he is in a state of Oneness he knows all things are as they should be, therefore he sees no need to change or fix the dynamics. The needed action will come to him and he will see it and do it accordingly, according to the natural flow of the moment. Love or compassion will be at the bottom of his movements.

 

So Marbles.....if you see a headline one day that says 'Ohio Woman Shredded to Death While Trying to Kiss Black Bear', just know that your interpretation was right, mine was wrong.....but what the heck, I gave it my all. I went out trying.....

Edited March 20, 2013 by manitou

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'll add my take on the written characters of this chapter, not to say this is the only or definitive way to grasp their poetry:

 

 

出生入死
With the appearance of life there is also death
生之徒十有三
those who pursue life are three in ten
死之徒十有三
[thus] those who pursue death are three in ten
人之生動之死地亦十有三
Those who live dangerously while pursuing life are also three in ten
夫何故

There is one who is unlike these others (3+3+3 =/= 10)
以其生生之厚
because he thrives on deep and magnanimous 厚friendship blossoming [in his heart]
蓋聞善攝生者
Affixing, and protecting within, the good善 known by all, he grasps and understands the secret of all life

(lit.: cover, understand, great good, absorb, life, + particle to create adverb)

陸行不遇兕虎
Walking the earth without encountering tiger or rhinoceros

入軍不被甲兵

Passing through a battalion without wearing a soldier’s armour

 

....

 

 

This 厚 deep friendship guarded within allows him to know when he is trespassing on others. I think this applies to encountering animals in the wild as well. If they see you are not a threat, nor want to encroach on their boundaries/personal space, and you are not afraid for yourself (which leads to defensive response), you are less likely to be perceived as a threat. Not being afraid for yourself also shows courage which can protect from predators.

 

This is, in a way, giving up the ego, which some perceive as part of, or the meaning of, resurrection.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Well hello, Mr. MH -

 

I interpret that a different way. I think the sage, when harm appears to be upon him, will revert to the mindset of all phenomena being illusory and that is where his protection will be. Somehow, there is something inside me that Knows this. Yes, the recklessness (or lack of it) thing is very human and the logical answer. I'm just not convinced that's what it's saying. I think it's actually something spookier than not being reckless.

Yes Dear, I know you like to find more than is presented to you. Still a little girl in some ways, you are.

 

 

So Marbles.....if you see a headline one day that says 'Ohio Woman Shredded to Death While Trying to Kiss Black Bear', just know that your interpretation was right, mine was wrong.....but what the heck, I gave it my all. I went out trying.....

Now that would be sad, and yes, it does sometimes happen. Mostly when we are unaware of reality, like when a momma bear is protecting her young.

[Marblehead]

I'll add my take on the written characters of this chapter, not to say this is the only or definitive way to grasp their poetry:

Not bad at all. Thanks for sharing.

[manitou]

Harmonious Emptiness, that is just about the most explanatory translation I've ever read on that chapter. it seems quite good.

 

Marbles, if I wasn't a little girl I'd be an old lady. I think there's something to HE's comments about not being perceived as a threat, if we can keep our head and put out something other than fear to the creature (like love). That's more of what I was referring to - the Kissing the Bear thing was a tad over the top, perhaps....

[Marblehead]

Marbles, if I wasn't a little girl I'd be an old lady. I think there's something to HE's comments about not being perceived as a threat, if we can keep our head and put out something other than fear to the creature (like love). That's more of what I was referring to - the Kissing the Bear thing was a tad over the top, perhaps....

Yeah, don't be kissing the bears. Hehehe.

 

Of what you said, I feed the birds and the cats in my neighborhood. There are some of the birds that like to eat the cat food. In particular, I can be sitting on the bench outside and the cat bowls are about six feet away from me. There is at least one grey jay that is brave enough to go the the cat bowls while I am sitting on the bench. It is cautious though - it lands about te feet from me. looks at me and hops closer to the bowl. It does that three or four times while I am talking to it and eventually hops on the bowl lip and gets between one and four bits of cat food then flies off. That bird is cautious and constantly checking so that it is aware of its surroundings (and potential danger).

[taijistudent]

Could you go a little deeper into your thoughts on this? I'm looking for a different translation to help us triangulate but not seeing it on my desk right now - I'll find it later.

Thanks for your comments.

 

This is and interesting translation which explicitly discusses the cycle of life. Again, it reads like a group hymn or chant:

 

Death arises from life itself.

For every three out of ten born

Three out of ten die.

But why in the face of death

Should any three out of ten go breeding,

When all they produce is more death?

Because of the wild obsession to multiply.

But there is only one of ten, so they say, so sure of life

That the wild bull cannot find a place in him to pitch its horn,

The tiger cannot find a place in which to dig its claws,

The weapon's point can find no place in him to pierce.

And why?

Because when he dies he does not die.

[taijistudent]

Yes, I like talking about the cycles that can be seen throughout the universe. And reversion is a part of these cycles. We are born into life. We are supposed to live it to its maximum potential. (To our, each individual, maximum capacity and capability.) The cycle is complete when we die. We must never fear death otherwise we will not be able to live to the fullest. But that doesn't mean that we should be reckless. Not being reckless is why the Sage can walk amongst the wild animals and not be harmed or go into battle and not be killed.

Yes, I agree. The translation that I just added discusses how to cycle continues life -> death -> life. Not too dissimilar to the awake -> sleep -> awake cycle.

Edited March 21, 2013 by taijistudent

[taijistudent]

 

I'll add my take on the written characters of this chapter, not to say this is the only or definitive way to grasp their poetry:

 

 

出生入死

With the appearance of life there is also death

生之徒十有三

those who pursue life are three in ten

死之徒十有三

[thus] those who pursue death are three in ten

人之生動之死地亦十有三

Those who live dangerously while pursuing life are also three in ten

夫何故

There is one who is unlike these others (3+3+3 =/= 10)

以其生生之厚

because he thrives on deep and magnanimous 厚friendship blossoming [in his heart]

蓋聞善攝生者

Affixing, and protecting within, the good善 known by all, he grasps and understands the secret of all life

(lit.: cover, understand, great good, absorb, life, + particle to create adverb)

陸行不遇兕虎

Walking the earth without encountering tiger or rhinoceros

入軍不被甲兵

Passing through a battalion without wearing a soldier’s armour

Very interesting translation. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 50
Translation in terse English:

1. From birth to death,
2. Those who lived longer are three out of ten,
3. Those who die sooner are three out of ten,
4. Some of the people could have lived longer,
5. But they choose to run toward death,
6. Also, three out of ten.
7. Then, why so?
8. It was due to their extravagant way of life style.
9. I heard one who knows how to preserve life,
10.Walking on land will not meet a rhinoceros or a tiger.
11.Enlisted man will not be harmed by weapons.
12.Rhinoceros has no chance to thrust its horn.
13.Tiger has no chance to utilize its claws.
14.Weapon have no chance to cut with its sharpen edge.
15.Then, why so?
16.Because one has not entered a fatal environment.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I agree. The translation that I just added discusses how to cycle continues life -> death -> life. Not too dissimilar to the awake -> sleep -> awake cycle.

Yeah, but we have to be careful when talking about this. Life -> death -> life is not suggesting reincarnation as in the Buddhist belief system. Here in Taoism it is more at the recycling of all manifest things. (Many plastic bags becomes a garbage can.) That is, from potential to manifest then back to potential.

[Marblehead]

16.Because one has not entered a fatal environment.

And this goes right back to awareness of one's surroundings.

[manitou]

Just seems like one in ten is a bit on the high side.

[Marblehead]

Just seems like one in ten is a bit on the high side.

Hehehe. Sometimes I wonder too. Maybe things were different 2500 years ago.

[Stosh]

I wonder if that might not be a reference to some- then current traditions -some of which Lao doesnt approve of etc?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just seems like one in ten is a bit on the high side.

 

Yeah true. It's more just a matter of rhythm in the themes that brings "one" into the picture. It's not stated explicitly as "one in ten."

 

夫何故

There is one who is unlike these others (3+3+3 =/= 10)

[Stosh]

9=10 ?

[taijistudent]

Just seems like one in ten is a bit on the high side.

Lol. |

 

Maybe back then they were more optimistic.

[taijistudent]

I wonder if that might not be a reference to some- then current traditions -some of which Lao doesnt approve of etc?

 

It is impossible to say. One can only speculate based upon their own experiences and understanding. Every translation will necessarily have such biases. What I look for in translations is new ideas and possibilities. It is impossible to say what they were thinking, just as a good Shakespeare play will have many layers of meaning, but whatever they may have been thinking, our own interpretations are worth discussing.

[taijistudent]

9=10 ?

I would consider this all ancient poetry or chants that people might be singing together. They might be saying as a group that 3 in 10 do this, and another 3 and 10 do that, and yet another 3 in 10 do this, BUT there is the one within us all that can do this - that is, to live life, to not to fear the unknown, but to move on and to believe and know of the circle of life. The Yi Jing also speaks to the circularity of life.

Edited March 21, 2013 by taijistudent

[Stosh]

Yep ,

Shakespeare is a good analogy

and it may be relegated to speculation at this point

but you never know what the scolars may have up thier sleeves

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Recently I read a translation of Chapter 50 which was quite different from many other interpretations that I have read. In this particular translation, Chapter 50 was seen as a commentary on the nature of the cycle of life and death. When one enters one they begin their journey into the other. This is very much in accordance with the nature of the Yi Jing.

 

I think a chapter that reflects this idea even closer is Chapter Five:

 

 

05 天地之間,

tiān dì zhī jiān,

The space between heaven and earth

06 其猶橐籥乎

qí yóu tuó yuè hū

Is like [the lungs, or] a bag-pipe

07 虛而不屈,

xū ér bù qū,

Empty without being finished

08 動而愈出。

dòng ér yù chū

Rather than being exhausted by movement, the movement only generates more and more of what it produces

 

(my translation. The rest can be read in my PPD of the chapter)

Edited March 21, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness