Dzogchen Teachings

[Jax]

Hi all! I have seen my name pop up quite often lately regarding Dzogchen teachings. I would enjoy the opportunity to correct many of the comments regarding my relationship to the Dzogchen teachings and to clarify several points that are incorrect regarding Dzogchen practice and realization. There seems to be a clique of "Hinayana style Dzogchennist Taliban" panditas here that confuse conceptualization for rigpa wisdom or yeshe. One can't intellectualize one's way to rigpa. In spite of what many from this clique consider my view to be, this recent text I wrote contains the view that has been recognized here:

 

 

If perceptions are not "objectified" and the perceiving is not "subjectified", there is then only the "unestablished". When the "unestablished" arises one cannot frame it in any conceptual way or else it becomes the "established". The "established" is then something perceived and objectified. If something is perceived and objectified then for that to be possible the perceiving must have become subjectified.

 

Knowing this we find Nirvana is the condition of the "unestablished".

 

Further comment: In practice, this means we leave "appearances" as-is without creating a story that defines them in any conceptual way. Likewise we leave our "perceiving" undefined, not creating a story about a "me", the perceiver. Continuing in this completely open and undefined space of experience, how can each moment not be Nirviana? I think this formula shows the same point that Zen, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Madhyamaka and the Buddha's earliest teachings point to...

 

Jackson Peterson. My background:

http://mumonkan.org/resources/jackson.aspx

Edited March 4, 2013 by Jax

[C T]

Good of you to come on board, Jax.

 

Are you aware that the link you provided says, 'bad request'. Not helpful. Hope its not a malware carrier.

 

I am wondering if the tone of the first paragraph is a bit harsh, given that you have chosen to express your understanding on the 'unestablished'.

[JustBHappy]

Looks like the link just got wacked.

http://mumonkan.org/resources/Jackson.aspx

Edited March 4, 2013 by JustBHappy

[RongzomFan]

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9144&p=114565#p114565

[Jax]

Funny... Try this one, just tested it!

 

http://mumonkan.org/resources/jackson.aspx

 

Nice quote!

 

Lets not dig into old DW. Start fresh...

 

In my opening post I was referring to a rather small group or clique that love to dominate any Dzogchen discussion. They love to quote Malcolm, who is now a good friend of mine... and he too has abandoned the Dharma Wheel clique. He also has apologized to me on DW before leaving there as well. Malcolm is a good guy. However this clique likes to use as their defense that the "translation" was faulty or out-moded. It's funny because I have been personally with Norbu where he has spoken in clear English demonstrating a sophisticated understanding regarding such terms as "presence", "awareness", "pure noticing", "immediate presence" etc. Or the argument turns personal to avoid defeat.

 

However, some here have demonstrated some excellent insight into the experiential nature of rigpa.

 

It would be nice to communicate without the rancor that was so ridiculous in Dharma Wheel.

[ralis]

Funny... Try this one, just tested it! http://mumonkan.org/resources/jackson.aspx Nice quote! Lets not dig into old DW. Start fresh... In my opening post I was referring to a rather small group or clique that love to dominate any Dzogchen discussion. They love to quote Malcolm, who is now a good friend of mine... and he too has abandoned the Dharma Wheel clique. He also has apologized to me on DW before leaving there as well. Malcolm is a good guy. However this clique likes to use as their defense that the "translation" was faulty or out-moded. It's funny because I have been personally with Norbu where he has spoken in clear English demonstrating a sophisticated understanding regarding such terms as "presence", "awareness", "pure noticing", "immediate presence" etc. Or the argument turns personal to avoid defeat. However, some here have demonstrated some excellent insight into the experiential nature of rigpa. It would be nice to communicate without the rancor that was so ridiculous in Dharma Wheel.

 

 

Please continue.

[Jax]

Thanks for the welcome. Gapbum!

[RongzomFan]

Funny... Try this one, just tested it! http://mumonkan.org/resources/jackson.aspx Nice quote! Lets not dig into old DW. Start fresh... In my opening post I was referring to a rather small group or clique that love to dominate any Dzogchen discussion. They love to quote Malcolm, who is now a good friend of mine... and he too has abandoned the Dharma Wheel clique. He also has apologized to me on DW before leaving there as well. Malcolm is a good guy. However this clique likes to use as their defense that the "translation" was faulty or out-moded. It's funny because I have been personally with Norbu where he has spoken in clear English demonstrating a sophisticated understanding regarding such terms as "presence", "awareness", "pure noticing", "immediate presence" etc. Or the argument turns personal to avoid defeat. However, some here have demonstrated some excellent insight into the experiential nature of rigpa. It would be nice to communicate without the rancor that was so ridiculous in Dharma Wheel.

 

 

I think the issue was your factual assertions. Anyway, I'm sure you would agree that your new ebook would not surpass this:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=LwS6RjZWd7QC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited March 4, 2013 by alwayson

[ralis]

I think the issue was your factual assertions. Anyway, I'm sure you would agree that your new ebook would not surpass this:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=LwS6RjZWd7QC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

I am only interested in the essence without all the hierarchy and Tibetan Buddhist baggage. The book in question covers the same old ground.

[C T]

Funny... Try this one, just tested it! http://mumonkan.org/resources/jackson.aspx Nice quote! Lets not dig into old DW. Start fresh... In my opening post I was referring to a rather small group or clique that love to dominate any Dzogchen discussion. They love to quote Malcolm, who is now a good friend of mine... and he too has abandoned the Dharma Wheel clique. He also has apologized to me on DW before leaving there as well. Malcolm is a good guy. However this clique likes to use as their defense that the "translation" was faulty or out-moded. It's funny because I have been personally with Norbu where he has spoken in clear English demonstrating a sophisticated understanding regarding such terms as "presence", "awareness", "pure noticing", "immediate presence" etc. Or the argument turns personal to avoid defeat. However, some here have demonstrated some excellent insight into the experiential nature of rigpa. It would be nice to communicate without the rancor that was so ridiculous in Dharma Wheel.

Glad Malcolm 'saw the light' and left. I dont think he was much help to anyone while he was there. He was not known to be fond of engaging with others on their level, and i got the impression he often talked down to others, but i could be wrong.

 

I had felt stifled on the few visits made there. So many scholars, so few authentic practitioners.

 

Nonetheless, I am glad you have decided to post here. Always good to have fresh perspectives to chew on. As you will come to notice in time, T TB has a much warmer feel to the place.

[RongzomFan]

Glad Malcolm 'saw the light' and left. I dont think he was much help to anyone while he was there. He was not known to be fond of engaging with others on their level, and i got the impression he often talked down to others, but i could be wrong.

 

I had felt stifled on the few visits made there. So many scholars, so few authentic practitioners.

 

Nonetheless, I am glad you have decided to post here. Always good to have fresh perspectives to chew on. As you will come to notice in time, T TB has a much warmer feel to the place.

 

 

I don't agree with your characterization of Dharma Wheel or Malcolm or Tao Bums in any sense.

[ralis]

It would behoove anyone posting here to not let this thread deteriorate and give Jax the time to explain Dzogchen and how it applies.

[C T]

I don't agree with your characterization of Dharma Wheel or Malcolm or Tao Bums in any sense.

Thats perfectly ok.

[C T]

It would behoove anyone posting here to not let this thread deteriorate and give Jax the time to explain Dzogchen and how it applies.

I agree.

[RongzomFan]

In regard to hierarchy which I assume means lineage transmission and samaya...

 

Its there to preserve the fidelity of the teachings.

 

Otherwise you get stuff like this from a supposed student of Norbu and others:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sorcerers-Secrets-Strategies-Practical-Magick/dp/160163059X

 

 

Satanists like Aleister Crowley did and continue to rip off eastern teachings.

Edited March 4, 2013 by alwayson

[ralis]

In regard to hierarchy which I assume means lineage transmission and samaya...

 

Its there to preserve the fidelity of the teachings.

 

Otherwise you get stuff like this from a supposed student of Norbu and others:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sorcerers-Secrets-Strategies-Practical-Magick/dp/160163059X

 

 

Satanists like Aleister Crowley did and continue to rip off eastern teachings.

 

 

Teachings that are culturally biased, authoritarian. Which have very little to do with the essence of primordial awareness. I am not certain how Crowley, Satan and Jason Miller fit in here. Please explain?

Edited March 4, 2013 by ralis

[Jax]

Hi All!

 

I think it would be good to start fresh... Leave our old discussions behind.

 

One of this issues today with Dzogchen, I believe, is that it has turned into a subject and topic of "study". When that happens many mistake the "wisdom experience" with an understanding of great clarity. People read more and more texts, translations, tantras, commentaries etc. in an effort of intellectual grasping. This actually can make the task more complicated for the practitioner and teacher.

 

The state of wisdom we are attempting to get familiar with is not a conceptual understanding. Usually students have constructed a subtle framework of understanding that involves "names", "labels", "hierarchies", "stages", "paths", "attainments" and various structural supports, all conceptual constructions.

 

Rigpa is a completely "unestablished" wisdom. No concepts get one closer. There is not "anyone" to get closer. And there is "nothing" to get closer too. And there is no "getting closer" along a progressive path. Studying Dzogchen often results in establishing an imaginary, "correct Dzogchen view". However, if there is any trace of a view, even a "correct Dzogchen view", then this most subtle wisdom won't appear, only conceptual clarity will.

 

So what is one to do? Nothing. But then if we do "nothing", we are DOING a conceptual "nothing", which is also a "doing". Any effort in any direction we make in this matter is the action of "sem" or the afflicted consciousness of the Fifth Skandha.

 

The Dzogchen solution is to abandon self-effort and instead receive a "direct introduction" to this primordial "wisdom". When this "introduction" has been successful, then one rests in what is called "non-meditation". This is resting as the "unestablished". Only this is correct practice. But there must not be any sense of a "practice" occuring. No deliberate mindfulness of any kind. Rigpa contains its own quality of natural mindfulness and requires no assistance.

 

Now if anyone has a different view of Dzogchen basics, please share! But please cite no texts or quotes. I would like to discuss this from direct experience only... Let's keep it real.. :-)

[ralis]

Hi All!

 

I think it would be good to start fresh... Leave our old discussions behind.

 

One of this issues today with Dzogchen, I believe, is that it has turned into a subject and topic of "study". When that happens many mistake the "wisdom experience" with an understanding of great clarity. People read more and more texts, translations, tantras, commentaries etc. in an effort of intellectual grasping. This actually can make the task more complicated for the practitioner and teacher.

 

The state of wisdom we are attempting to get familiar with is not a conceptual understanding. Usually students have constructed a subtle framework of understanding that involves "names", "labels", "hierarchies", "stages", "paths", "attainments" and various structural supports, all conceptual constructions.

 

Rigpa is a completely "unestablished" wisdom. No concepts get one closer. There is not "anyone" to get closer. And there is "nothing" to get closer too. And there is no "getting closer" along a progressive path. Studying Dzogchen often results in establishing an imaginary, "correct Dzogchen view". However, if there is any trace of a view, even a "correct Dzogchen view", then this most subtle wisdom won't appear, only conceptual clarity will.

 

So what is one to do? Nothing. But then if we do "nothing", we are DOING a conceptual "nothing", which is also a "doing". Any effort in any direction we make in this matter is the action of "sem" or the afflicted consciousness of the Fifth Skandha.

 

The Dzogchen solution is to abandon self-effort and instead receive a "direct introduction" to this primordial "wisdom". When this "introduction" has been successful, then one rests in what is called "non-meditation". This is resting as the "unestablished". Only this is correct practice. But there must not be any sense of a "practice" occuring. No deliberate mindfulness of any kind. Rigpa contains its own quality of natural mindfulness and requires no assistance.

 

Now if anyone has a different view of Dzogchen basics, please share! But please cite no texts or quotes. I would like to discuss this from direct experience only... Let's keep it real.. :-)

 

 

Whatever situation I find myself in, it is the experience of, with no judgement or objectifying with prejudice. Not certain if that makes sense or not.

[RongzomFan]

Teachings that are culturally biased, authoritarian. Which have very little to do with the essence of primordial awareness. I am not certain how Crowley, Satan and Jason Miller fit in here. Please explain?

 

The "hierarachy" that you spoke of is there to preserve the fidelity of the teachings. Or even preserve the mere existence of the teachings.

 

For example, after Chokygur Lingpa died, they purposely created a tulku lineage to preserve his teachings. Its not a religious or cultural thing. Its a practical thing.

 

People like Jason Miller, Poke Runyon and Satanists do appropriate Vajrayana teachings.

[ralis]

"names", "labels", "hierarchies", "stages", "paths", "attainments" and various structural supports, all conceptual constructions.

 

You mentioned students in the above context. Are not so called teachers responsible for such misunderstandings?

[RongzomFan]

"names", "labels", "hierarchies", "stages", "paths", "attainments" and various structural supports, all conceptual constructions.

 

This reminds me of this:

 

[RongzomFan]

You either recognize unfabricated presence vs the conceptualizing mind.

 

Or you don't

 

There are no "degrees" or "stages" of trekcho, apart from familiarization.

[Jax]

We can talk about what people can do before coming to Dzogchen. Some things may seem helpful, some not so helpful and some things increase confusion and suffering. There is no need to construct an intellectual view of Dzogchen first. There is no need for any pre-requisites in a general sense. Realizing two-fold emptiness is not a pre-requisite to Rigpa. Two-fold emptiness is an "unestablished" condition of Rigpa. Each situation is different. If the "direct introduction" does not bring this "wisdom" shift, then perhaps you could say the "direct introduction" wasn't so professionaly delivered. The teacher should have great insight into the needs of the student prior to the direct introduction. The error is with the teacher, not the student.

 

In Dzogchen the actual tradition is: First we do "direct introduction". That's the way of Dzogchen Ati-yoga. Rigpa is not an intellectual break-through into realzing the nature of "emptiness" as an insightful understanding that results in "rigpa". That is still a revelation of intellectual clarity, not rigpa. Dzogchen is not and never was a gradual path. Why not? Because there is not an entity that gradually "gets it". There is no "getting it", because there is nothing to get nor anyone to "get it". This is all clear just from the Prajnaparamita Sutras alone as well as from many early teachings of the Buddha. There is experience, yet "no self, me or mine" that can be found either before, during or after investigation. In transmission or illumination this is known directly, not like having graduated from "No self" or Dzogchen 101. The whole notion of a step by step path is absurd. Why? Because it assumes there is a "traveller" to travel on a path and a goal to be reached. Its a sad state of affairs that for many teachers and students Dzogchen has been relegated to the lower yanas of "cause and effect" teachings and practices. No one attains "enlightenment" nor does anyone realize rigpa. The whole idea is anti-Buddhist in structure (anatta).

 

Simple Jack, you asked: " Do you have a sense of an abiding "rigpa/awareness," when encountering sensations, sounds, thoughts, etc.?" How ridiculous! You mean you still have a sense of "encountering" sensations, sounds, and thoughts? Let's ask instead; when you Jack are busy "encountering" sensations, sounds and thoughts, are you, during this dualistic experience, recognising the true nature of sensations, sounds and thoughts to be "wisdom" as "effulgent rigpa" itself?

 

There is no need to have a great deal to say about Dzogchen, the less the better. None of what you say or know is relevant. Its all conceptual sem, ALL of it. That's why the "direct introduction" is so necessary, and I don't mean some hooky transmission you receive over a webcast to hundreds of people. The "direct introduction" has to be personal and one on one. In this initial flash, a clarification and sorting out occurs where rigpa becomes differentiated from sem or afflicted mind. This is the essential "Khorde Rushen". When that happens all that intellectual gathering of insights and information regarding Dzogchen and Buddhism including "emptiness", collapses... completely gone, and is seen to be so many meaningless movements and manuevers in a "day dream". All of it was a waste of time. Nothing got "you" closer. If you don't know that with certainty than Rigpa has not arisen.

[ralis]

One point of clarification that the direct intro must be one on one. In other words if Norbu is teaching to a group in person giving the direct intro, that is not personal? If that is correct, then very few have the privilege?

[Jax]

That's right Tao Bum! I don't believe anyone shifted into actual rigpa from his group explanations (exceptions allowed!). He was never that clever in my experience. His transmissions to me were when I was with him alone. The topic was always a two-way meeting of minds during a personal discussions, one on one. Norbu and I were once having a beer or two together in a bar in Nevada City, California, and Norbu asked me what I thought of an idea he had. He asked what I thought about whether he should teach Dzogchen in the traditional style of small groups and more intimate settings or should he roll out a program he had just designed. He said he had a plan to establish an international network of centers and teaching called "Santi Maha Sangha".

 

I told him I didn't like the big "international center" concept. Well we know which way he finally decided on! Transmission as in authentic "direct introduction" is extremely personal and intimate. You can't wholesale it. He needs to transmit to many students capable of transmission and set them loose to transmit to others. This is greatly lacking in his community. Yeshe ain't the guy either. More people need to be recognized and encouraged to teach and transmit directly. Its the only way to effectively transform or self-liberate society, in my opinion.