Dzogchen Teachings

[JustBHappy]

Good stuff. Thanks for coming and opening the discussion Jax.

How much is there to really say about nonMeditation and nonDistraction? It's quite true, there isn't really much to say or talk about other than clearing up wrong views.

 

Along those lines, there is a difference between the public teachings, ceremonies, puja's and empowerments and the actual pointing out or direct introduction. This is not to say that one couldn't get it from an empowerment, but it's not as common. It's strange to me that people spend so much time, energy and money getting empowerments yet have no practice, or personal connection to a lama. Great example of spiritual materialism.

[RongzomFan]

Good stuff. Thanks for coming and opening the discussion Jax.

 

How much is there to really say about nonMeditation and nonDistraction? It's quite true, there isn't really much to say or talk about other than clearing up wrong views.

 

Along those lines, there is a difference between the public teachings, ceremonies, puja's and empowerments and the actual pointing out or direct introduction. This is not to say that one couldn't get it from an empowerment, but it's not as common.

 

Any public teaching where the talk is about own's nature, is a direct introduction. Major empowerments are indeed the functional equivalent of direct introduction.

 

It's strange to me that people spend so much time, energy and money getting empowerments yet have no practice, or personal connection to a lama. Great example of spiritual materialism.

 

The teachings often have minimum practice requirements.

Edited March 5, 2013 by alwayson

[Jax]

 

Most Vajrayana lamas give teachings, transmissions, empowerments en masse.

 

This was the case even in pre-invasion Tibet.

Yes, it became a "blessing" ceremony. That's all.

[Jax]

Then its a simple matter of deploying what you learned.

No, its not. Direction Introduction is not "something you learned". These big "gang-bangs" are just lazy-ass waste of times and money, (but not for the Lamas...he, he)

[Jax]

In terms of ordinary life, what has the Dzogchen transmission done for you? Are you a professional in a field or a business person? If so, how has this helped your life for the better? My reason for asking this is that I have seen a number of people here in Santa Fe either fall apart or not move forward with their lives or careers after the direct intro.

Good question, but irrelevent. When "people" ACTUALLY receive transmission, the knowledge of "rigpa", they then know nirvana. That knowing transforms the negative energies to positive and the "great reversal" begins (rulog). The emanatiion is collapsing back into its Basis. It feels good... and makes one feel unconditional love for all and everything. Tremendous Clarity arises that guides one's path in life perfectly, as varioius aspects of "omniscience" arise as well as "synchronicity". If this isn't happening then the practice is lacking, most likely the Direct Introduction was too shallow.

[Jax]

Can you describe what a "transmission" is? Is it a two-way meeting of minds in discussion? Or, is it much more?

 

Thanks, Jeff

Nice question Jeff... sure.

 

Transmission is really from oneself to oneself. (per Trungpa). However this "flash" is triggered from within oneself, is not the issue. But that it must happen. A good teacher can dance with the student in such an intimate fashion that the flash just occurs when the dance hits it orgasmic finale'. Its the same in Zen dialoguing between a teacher and a student. However this can also happen in life spontaneously as well. Its not easy to find such an adroit dancing partner. Most just stumble over their own feet. So the first step is to find the dancing partner. You have to actually dance with the teacher in a very personal way. There is no "magic wand" effect. Don't believe that a teacher conveys something powerful and truly transforming in a webcast. That is just "magical thinking", where one's imagination takes over, like the "placebo effect". Its short lived at best, not life transforming. (in my opinion).

[Jax]

Hi Jax!

 

I'm curious what comes after releasing all conceptualizations / thoughts to emptiness?

Hi Teknix! Its not about releasing all thoughts and conceptualizations to emptiness, but rather the mind at its deepest levels SEES all thoughts and conceptualizations to be empty, like transparent messages floating in space like little holograms that have no substance beyond their own alluring message.

[Jax]

Jax:

 

I heard, that ChNN at one point wanted to dissolve some gars, because the Dzogchen community was getting too big. Apparently, ChNN expressed this through an email sent out to the Dzogchen community. Were you still part of the tsegyalgar mailing list then?

 

Just wondering if anyone else could confirm this. Maybe he wanted to do this, in order to keep costs down on receiving the teachings or the cost of running a network of communities?

Jack, I don't know anything about that... Could be any number of reasons. But what he has going has to be a huge source of "headaches". Don't get me wrong, what Norbu is doing is wonderful. Dzogchen is getting known. The downside is that many people get turned off by the whole circus, memberships, dues, gars, organizations, hierarchies, etc. etc. Also many are not seeing the essence clearly through all the side show, ritualistic stuff. That stuff is great for people attracted to a "religious' type, Tibetan approach, but hip Western highly educated people are more often turned-off by all that. That's my point...

[Jax]

If one is a professional scientist and is introduced to Dzogchen, what will occur? Better science or what scenario? Perhaps quit science?

Well I love quantum theory and how it is the outer verification of Dzogchen view. I have a whole chapter on quantum and Dzogchen in my book. I discuss the latest cutting edge tech regarding the holographic nature of the universe, which includes the mind and brain. Its all a field of "information", or we would say "a field of wisdom". Quantum Information physics is really getting us close to home... So, I think a scientist given a little tutoring on Quantum, could be totally enthralled with Dzogchen teachings.

 

The Dalai Lama has been here in Vienna, Austria twice for two weekend seminars recenlty on Quantum Physics and Quantum Information Theory. He loves this stuff! It was great seeing him in person! The scientists were really excited by the insights provided regarding consciousness and insight as offered by the Dalai Lama.

[Jax]

Probably begin to understand how and why they are mutually exclusive practices?

Science and Dzogchen are one and the same...

[Jax]

I am familiar with the rainbow body. What I want to know is what happens to the critical thinking process required to perform scientific research or even baking a cake for that matter. If thought is liberated to it's natural condition i.e, pure energy, then what mechanism takes over to live a normal life.

Wisdom Clarity takes over... and qualities of omniscience begin to produce brilliiant flashes of insight that lie in a different order of magnitude from "thought".

[Jax]

Good stuff. Thanks for coming and opening the discussion Jax.

 

How much is there to really say about nonMeditation and nonDistraction? It's quite true, there isn't really much to say or talk about other than clearing up wrong views.

 

Along those lines, there is a difference between the public teachings, ceremonies, puja's and empowerments and the actual pointing out or direct introduction. This is not to say that one couldn't get it from an empowerment, but it's not as common. It's strange to me that people spend so much time, energy and money getting empowerments yet have no practice, or personal connection to a lama. Great example of spiritual materialism.

 

 

Yea, but there is no alternative. Its rare to get a real "one on one" on-going relationship with daily access with a realized teacher. There may not be any meat in the soup, but just smelling the broth can be quite intoxicating to the point of engendering a true hunger to get some of the meat... But I agree with you completey...

[Jax]

Any public teaching where the talk is about own's nature, is a direct introduction. Major empowerments are indeed the functional equivalent of direct introduction.

 

 

The teachings often have minimum practice requirements.

Boy I sure disagree! Empowerments in group settings are pointless. They have nothing to do with Direct Introduction. Group "introductions" are like going to a lecture, Its not vaguely the same... But then if you haven't had the other (in private), then how would you know the difference?

[Jax]

"Just as hallucination may arise from the potency of a heavy fever, so samsaric images arise as a matter of fact from the potency of a confused mind. Yet from their inception those images are just figments of imagination, immaculate and empty."

"Due to unawareness of the nature of mind as the creator, seemingly discrete moments of consciousness appear as the mere perceiver of seemingly objective images."

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 4776-4777). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

"Any thought is no thought, since in its essentially aware nature thought is transparently luminous."

From the 8000 Line Prajnaparamita Sutra, Chapter 1.

[Jeff]

Nice question Jeff... sure.

 

Transmission is really from oneself to oneself. (per Trungpa). However this "flash" is triggered from within oneself, is not the issue. But that it must happen. A good teacher can dance with the student in such an intimate fashion that the flash just occurs when the dance hits it orgasmic finale'. Its the same in Zen dialoguing between a teacher and a student. However this can also happen in life spontaneously as well. Its not easy to find such an adroit dancing partner. Most just stumble over their own feet. So the first step is to find the dancing partner. You have to actually dance with the teacher in a very personal way. There is no "magic wand" effect. Don't believe that a teacher conveys something powerful and truly transforming in a webcast. That is just "magical thinking", where one's imagination takes over, like the "placebo effect". Its short lived at best, not life transforming. (in my opinion).

Hi Jax,

 

So could you say that the teacher sort of "overlays" their presence on the student. In this shared space/overlay, the student feels/experiences the truth/difference? And, the "organismic" part is the results from the resulting opening in the "energy body"? Your "dance" is in that "shared space"? Or, would you describe it differently?

 

Thanks, Jeff

[ralis]

Jax,

 

I think the problem being one of semantic constructs or a word game as defined by your quote below. Without semantic constructs, the concept of 'no self' makes sense. A circular argument which wraps up life experience in one neat tidy package. Further, the quote implies a permanent "space of being" which implies defined boundaries. To carry this a bit further, wars, holocaust's etc. are nothing more than spontaneous arising with no self responsibility.

 

 

Here is a quote from your paper 'Unintended Comments'

 

 

"In the Space of Being, everything just happens spontaneously without

intent. Yet when even “intent” arises, that same intent arises

spontaneously, without being intended! Everything just happens. The

open Space of Being is the locus or venue in which all things,

thoughts, feelings, energies, bodies and forms just happen. There is

no one there as some defined self or causative agent that owns or

causes the experiential events to occur from moment to moment.

They just happen. Everything simply arises from the vast matrix of

Emptiness/Being spontaneously."

[Jax]

Its all about freedom from grasping thoughts.

 

It's all about seeing the empty nature of thoughts, and that there is no "grasper" of thoughts, and nothing "graspable"..

[RongzomFan]

Some people in this thread conceive direct introduction as some sort of magical shaktipat.

 

 

Noone is expected to recognize their nature at direct introduction. This is a huge misconception that people have.

 

What you are supposed to do is go home, reflect and deploy the teachings until you recognize your own primordial nature.

 

For example in DC, you do semdzin, rushan, etc. until you recognize your own primordial nature. If you have a major empowerment like a deity, you practice that until you recognize your own primordial nature.

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

So could you say that the teacher sort of "overlays" their presence on the student. In this shared space/overlay, the student feels/experiences the truth/difference? And, the "organismic" part is the results from the resulting opening in the "energy body"? Your "dance" is in that "shared space"? Or, would you describe it differently?

Thanks, Jeff

 

Jeff, I would describe it differently. A kind of harmonizing of minds occurs, but it is usually something that suddenly causes the student's mind to collapse completely...

[Jeff]

Jeff, I would describe it differently. A kind of harmonizing of minds occurs, but it is usually something that suddenly causes the student's mind to collapse completely...

 

Hi Jax,

 

If the mind "collapses", how is there a harmonizing? What you describe sounds more like an "overlay", which causes a kind of mind/ego "shutdown".

 

Also, do you perceive a difference between mind-mind transmission and light-light based transmission?

 

Finally, have you reached the point where you can "give" transmission?

 

Thanks again, Jeff

[Jax]

Some people in this thread conceive direct introduction as some sort of magical shaktipat.

 

 

Noone is expected to recognize their nature at direct introduction. This is a huge misconception that people have.

 

What you are supposed to do is go home, reflect and deploy the teachings until you recognize your own primordial nature.

 

For example in DC, you do semdzin, rushan, etc. until you recognize your own primordial nature. If you have a major empowerment like a deity, you practice that until you recognize your own primordial

 

With due respect, I completely disagree. The purpose of "direct introduction" is immediate recognition. THEN you get beyond all doubts and continue in the state. But you must recognize at first or else you are just poking around in the dark. This is why I say that Dzogchen is not being transmitted properly today.

[ralis]

It's all about seeing the empty nature of thoughts, and that there is no "grasper" of thoughts, and nothing "graspable"..

 

My brain wiring is extremely visual feeling. In other words I visually and kinesthetically feel space and objects with no sense of being separate. For me the ideas around the incessant need for teachers to use the term 'emptiness' makes no sense. Another semantic explanation needs to be presented to the public.

 

I also feel words and the effect it has on my perception of. This may not make sense to some reading this.

[Jax]

Jax,

 

I think the problem being one of semantic constructs or a word game as defined by your quote below. Without semantic constructs, the concept of 'no self' makes sense. A circular argument which wraps up life experience in one neat tidy package. Further, the quote implies a permanent "space of being" which implies defined boundaries. To carry this a bit further, wars, holocaust's etc. are nothing more than spontaneous arising with no self responsibility.

 

 

Here is a quote from your paper 'Unintended Comments'

 

 

"In the Space of Being, everything just happens spontaneously without

intent. Yet when even “intent” arises, that same intent arises

spontaneously, without being intended! Everything just happens. The

open Space of Being is the locus or venue in which all things,

thoughts, feelings, energies, bodies and forms just happen. There is

no one there as some defined self or causative agent that owns or

causes the experiential events to occur from moment to moment.

They just happen. Everything simply arises from the vast imatrix of

Emptiness/Being spontaneously."

 

I will add, the space and the arisings are one piece. The aware space is the arisings.

 

There is no such thing as responsibility or free will. There is no "chooser" of action.

[ralis]

I will add, the space and the arisings are one piece. The aware space is the arisings. There is no such thing as responsibility or free will. There is no "chooser" of action.

 

Your use of the verb 'is' denotes an absolute state. The use of the verb 'is' arises from Aristotelian logic which denotes a black/white, yes/no dichotomy. This logic leaves out any other possibilities.

[Jeff]

I will add, the space and the arisings are one piece. The aware space is the arisings. There is no such thing as responsibility or free will. There is no "chooser" of action.

 

Hi Jax,

 

No chooser, but do you perceive that there is unique/individual perspective or view of arisings?

 

Thanks, Jeff